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Wisconsin you falling for this??
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ZRX1200 Offline
#1 Posted: Tue, Dec 9 2014, 4:38 PM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,626
Beloit Police Ask Residents To Volunteer To Have Their Homes Searched For Guns
Chief Of Police Says He Hopes Initiative Can Help Residents Begin Thinking Differently About Guns
Friday, December 5, 2014, 8:45pm
By Gilman Halsted
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Police in Beloit are launching a new effort to reduce gun violence in which they're asking city residents to volunteer to have police search their homes for guns.

Police Chief Norm Jacobs said he doesn't expect the phone to be ringing off the hook with requests for police to search their homes. He nevertheless hopes the program will encourage people to think about gun violence as an infectious disease like Ebola, and a home inspection like a vaccine to help build up the city's immune system.

"Gun violence is as serious as the Ebola virus is being represented in the media, and we should fight it using the tools that we've learned from our health providers,” he said.

Jacobs said he hopes some searches will result in the discovery of guns they didn't know were in their own homes. He said that there’s also a chance they’ll find guns linked to crimes.

“That's really what we're looking for,” he said. “Maybe we'll find a toy gun that's been altered by a youngster in the house — and we know the tragedies that can occur there on occasion.”

There have been seven gun homicides in Beloit this year. Four of the victims were teenagers or young men in their 20s — like Melisha Holloway's 20-year-old son Raymond, who was killed in April. Holloway said too many young men have given up on school.

“Pretty much all those kids and young men just need to be is educated,” said Holloway. “You have a lot of them that barely read at a fifth-grade level yet they're 25 year-old-men. But they know how to work a gun. There's something wrong with that picture."

This week, 20-year-old Jajuan Logan was sentenced to 12 years in prison for Holloway's murder.

Editor's Note: This article is part of a Wisconsin Public Radio year-long series tracking all gun-related homicides in Wisconsin.
TMCTLT Offline
#2 Posted: Tue, Dec 9 2014, 4:45 PM EST
Joined: 11-22-2007
Posts: 19,733
Yeah I'll bet they're NOT expecting the phone to ring off the hook......
This guy's a real tool bag, using Ebola and such as comparisons......head in ass syndrome fog
HockeyDad Offline
#3 Posted: Tue, Dec 9 2014, 4:59 PM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,156
Guns in Wisconsin prolly carry the Ebola virus but don't show the fever symptoms because of the cold hard steel.
victor809 Offline
#4 Posted: Tue, Dec 9 2014, 5:05 PM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
The Ebola metaphor is retarded. However, I can see some use for this if there are parents who have limited control over their adult children. If they suspect their adult kid has guns they don't know about they could call the cops and ask them to search.

As a program it doesn't sound like it will actually cost any money unless someone requests it.
ZRX1200 Offline
#5 Posted: Tue, Dec 9 2014, 5:08 PM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,626
^ good point Victor.
DrafterX Offline
#6 Posted: Tue, Dec 9 2014, 5:09 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,559
may as well search flash drives for nude neighbor pics while they're there.... Mellow
TMCTLT Offline
#7 Posted: Tue, Dec 9 2014, 5:36 PM EST
Joined: 11-22-2007
Posts: 19,733
[quote=victor809]The Ebola metaphor is retarded. However, I can see some use for this if there are parents who have limited control over their adult children. If they suspect their adult kid has guns they don't know about they could call the cops and ask them to search.

As a program it doesn't sound like it will actually cost any money unless someone requests it. [/quote


Let me reword that for you Victoria, in the house I grew up in, if my Mother thought I was getting too big for my britches she'd simply tell me and my brothers....you'd better " get in line " or I'll put you in line and would follow that up with a " Don't think your ever too big for me to handle, if I have to stand on a chair with a ball bat....you WILL listen to me and obey my rules"...... and partly because we believed her but mostly because we " respected her " nobody ever got The Bat. Hell she'd have had NO problem if need be escorting any one of us out the door @ the business end of a shotgun ( women of that day were well versed in guns to some extent )
victor809 Offline
#8 Posted: Tue, Dec 9 2014, 5:52 PM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
TMCTLT wrote:



Let me reword that for you Victoria, in the house I grew up in, if my Mother thought I was getting too big for my britches she'd simply tell me and my brothers....you'd better " get in line " or I'll put you in line and would follow that up with a " Don't think your ever too big for me to handle, if I have to stand on a chair with a ball bat....you WILL listen to me and obey my rules"...... and partly because we believed her but mostly because we " respected her " nobody ever got The Bat. Hell she'd have had NO problem if need be escorting any one of us out the door @ the business end of a shotgun ( women of that day were well versed in guns to some extent )


What does your mother being willing to point a loaded gun at you have to do with this TCBY?

Just because you had a firm belief your mother was willing to hit you with a baseball bat or shoot you with a shotgun doesn't mean everyone's mother has expressed such sentiment. Is this a "it was good enough for me therefore it's good enough for everyone else" mentality?

Dude... if no one calls the number, no one's houses get searched and no money is spent. If some parent thinks their kid is hiding some guns and doesn't want to point a shotgun at them themselves, they could theoretically call the number. It really shouldn't be any controversy here.
TMCTLT Offline
#9 Posted: Tue, Dec 9 2014, 6:00 PM EST
Joined: 11-22-2007
Posts: 19,733
victor809 wrote:
What does your mother being willing to point a loaded gun at you have to do with this TCBY?

Just because you had a firm belief your mother was willing to hit you with a baseball bat or shoot you with a shotgun doesn't mean everyone's mother has expressed such sentiment. Is this a "it was good enough for me therefore it's good enough for everyone else" mentality?

Dude... if no one calls the number, no one's houses get searched and no money is spent. If some parent thinks their kid is hiding some guns and doesn't want to point a shotgun at them themselves, they could theoretically call the number. It really shouldn't be any controversy here.




I realize many of you Cali folks want someone else to do your " necessary " work for ya's but seriously.....these folks cannot search their own homes if they want rid of " mystery guns "
victor809 Offline
#10 Posted: Tue, Dec 9 2014, 6:10 PM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
TMCTLT wrote:
I realize many of you Cali folks want someone else to do your " necessary " work for ya's but seriously.....these folks cannot search their own homes if they want rid of " mystery guns "


... dude... the police department has a vested interest in getting guns out of the hands of petty criminals and general idiots. This is a method by which cops may be able to disarm some dumb-@ss teens or young adults before they do something really stupid. Are you going to get hung up on the fact that the parents should be able to do it themselves?

Again... it's totally voluntary. If every parent takes care of their "necessary work" themselves and doesn't call, there's no cost. Or, if every parent continues to think their little angel couldn't possibly be collecting guns, again, there's no cost (maybe a few school shootings and some muggings/murders/whatever... but still no real cost).

Simply put, as a completely voluntary program with likely no overhead, I'm not seeing how it's news.
TMCTLT Offline
#11 Posted: Tue, Dec 9 2014, 6:18 PM EST
Joined: 11-22-2007
Posts: 19,733
victor809 wrote:
... dude... the police department has a vested interest in getting guns out of the hands of petty criminals and general idiots. This is a method by which cops may be able to disarm some dumb-@ss teens or young adults before they do something really stupid. Are you going to get hung up on the fact that the parents should be able to do it themselves?

Again... it's totally voluntary. If every parent takes care of their "necessary work" themselves and doesn't call, there's no cost. Or, if every parent continues to think their little angel couldn't possibly be collecting guns, again, there's no cost (maybe a few school shootings and some muggings/murders/whatever... but still no real cost).

Simply put, as a completely voluntary program with likely no overhead, I'm not seeing how it's news.



Neither ami I.....
victor809 Offline
#12 Posted: Tue, Dec 9 2014, 7:32 PM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
TMCTLT wrote:
[/h]

Neither ami I.....



Then I think we can agree to hate Z for bringing this silliness up.
teedubbya Offline
#13 Posted: Tue, Dec 9 2014, 7:47 PM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
I find no merit in the program and am afraid it is insidious. Bad bad idea.

To out do them the folks in Boston will soon allow themselves to be forced to house the police in their living room.
victor809 Offline
#14 Posted: Tue, Dec 9 2014, 7:51 PM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
teedubbya wrote:
I find no merit in the program and am afraid it is insidious. Bad bad idea.

To out do them the folks in Boston will soon allow themselves to be forced to house the police in their living room.



Doesn't Boston do that already? I thought that was what sped up the daily "morning body cavity search against terrorism"...
frankj1 Offline
#15 Posted: Tue, Dec 9 2014, 7:53 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,223
I fled to the burbs
ZRX1200 Offline
#16 Posted: Tue, Dec 9 2014, 9:40 PM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,626
Riiiiight.......because we haven't seen the slow boiled frog story the last 40-50 years. Unpopular ideas are always test marketed on the most friendly areas. Is that insane? If you say so......

It's for your consumption think what you will.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#17 Posted: Tue, Dec 9 2014, 9:48 PM EST
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,489
Better have a warrant!

If not...F OFF!horse
teedubbya Offline
#18 Posted: Tue, Dec 9 2014, 11:10 PM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
Zrx I agree with you. Meritless and bunk. Insidious. I was serious.
ZRX1200 Offline
#19 Posted: Tue, Dec 9 2014, 11:13 PM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,626
I didn't think you weren't TW, I was mostly vollying with Victor.

Also I believe a MAJOR component in many government actions is conditioning.
delta1 Offline
#20 Posted: Wed, Dec 10 2014, 12:21 AM EST
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,807
Lemme get this straight. The police should be supported if they shoot and kill unarmed citizens? But not if they offer to check your home for guns that might've been used in a crime?
ZRX1200 Offline
#21 Posted: Wed, Dec 10 2014, 12:45 AM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,626
Supported? No they shouldn't be publicly LYNCHED before they get their day in court so to speak.
jackconrad Offline
#22 Posted: Wed, Dec 10 2014, 8:59 AM EST
Joined: 06-09-2003
Posts: 67,461
Does this mean you should hide the whips ,chains and restraints before the visit??Herfing
HockeyDad Offline
#23 Posted: Wed, Dec 10 2014, 9:40 AM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,156
I think it would be pretty funny if the first person to agree to this comes home and finds out during the search the police sledge hammered the dry wall, cut up all the couch cushions and ripped the stuffing out, and dumped the contents of every drawer onto the floor.

There would be a note on the kitchen counter saying "We didn't find anything, you're safe. Thanks for your cooperation."
DrafterX Offline
#24 Posted: Wed, Dec 10 2014, 9:42 AM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,559
there would be outrage... Mellow
HockeyDad Offline
#25 Posted: Wed, Dec 10 2014, 9:48 AM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,156
It could be a reality tv show...........Police Punkd
gryphonms Offline
#26 Posted: Wed, Dec 10 2014, 10:04 AM EST
Joined: 04-14-2013
Posts: 1,983
Seems like an end run around illegal searches. This should be fought by all groups that wish to protect our rights. Only a fool would ask for an invasion of their privacy by a government entity. TW is correct, it is an insidious attempt that is a very slippery slope. What next?

Delta, you may be fine with voluntarily giving up constitutional rights, I am not. Also, no one is supporting the police killing unarmed citizens. The law was followed, end of story.

Victor, I understand your point, but the trade off is not acceptable.
DrafterX Offline
#27 Posted: Wed, Dec 10 2014, 10:05 AM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,559
maybe the cops should offer a free turkey or ham in return... Mellow
teedubbya Offline
#28 Posted: Wed, Dec 10 2014, 10:30 AM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
Why is it even a program. If I call the cops and tell them there is a big bag of weed or a murder weapon in my house somewhere but I can't seem to find it I'm sure they will help me without inventing a new program.

There is more here. It's a Trojan horse (no Zrx that's not the new larger size)
DrafterX Offline
#29 Posted: Wed, Dec 10 2014, 10:40 AM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,559
then you wouldn't get a free turkey or ham.... Not talking
Abrignac Offline
#30 Posted: Wed, Dec 10 2014, 11:33 AM EST
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,306
I'm waiting on the follow article where some stoner calls the cops because he dreamt his son had a stolen gun. He invites the popo over to search and the find his SOG grow in the closet and no gun. He ends up getting a felony weed charge.
DrafterX Offline
#31 Posted: Wed, Dec 10 2014, 11:49 AM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,559
I'm sure if you tell them not to look in the closet they will abide... Mellow
HockeyDad Offline
#32 Posted: Wed, Dec 10 2014, 11:56 AM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,156
Maybe the cops are bored. The town of Beloit might not have enough thugs to keep them busy. St Louis should ship them some.
DrafterX Offline
#33 Posted: Wed, Dec 10 2014, 12:05 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,559
Maybe they just don't have enough laws... Mellow
victor809 Offline
#34 Posted: Wed, Dec 10 2014, 12:17 PM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
teedubbya wrote:
Why is it even a program. If I call the cops and tell them there is a big bag of weed or a murder weapon in my house somewhere but I can't seem to find it I'm sure they will help me without inventing a new program.

There is more here. It's a Trojan horse (no Zrx that's not the new larger size)


^ I guess that's the argument for why I don't think it's a "trojan condom".

Look at the two rights we have to be worried about in this discussion: the defense against involuntary search/seizure, and the right to bear arms. Neither of these rights are being changed at all, or even enforced differently. The "slowly boiling the frog" analogy would require a very small impingement on one or the other of these rights.

Nothing has changed. Prior to this initiative, I'm sure someone could have called the cops if they suspected their kid, roommate, gimp was hoarding some illegally possessed weaponry. Now there is a specific number and the cops have announced they are willing to do this.

They aren't impinging at all on what rights to bear arms we currently have, and they aren't impinging on defense against involuntary search/seizure (they have to be invited over...) It sounds like a bad initiative, and the article does its best to make it all doomy-gloomy, but it isn't doing anything.

The whole thing could be completely and simply made irrelevant if all weaponry were legal for all people to own and keep in their house.
HockeyDad Offline
#35 Posted: Wed, Dec 10 2014, 12:55 PM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,156
You can't infringe on rights that people voluntarily surrender.
DrafterX Offline
#36 Posted: Wed, Dec 10 2014, 2:08 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,559
I heard about some guy that surrendered and got shot.... Mellow
teedubbya Offline
#37 Posted: Wed, Dec 10 2014, 3:09 PM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
The slowly boiling frog analogy is spot on if you consider the fact you are convincing someone to voluntarily give up their rights (like the sheep did following 911, and the boston marathon bombing, and those today saying we shouldn't disclose what the government did to the bad guys not for stategic purposes but because they prolly won't like it and might get mad thus the government should be more secretive).
teedubbya Offline
#38 Posted: Wed, Dec 10 2014, 3:10 PM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
If you ask the police to come find the weed in your closet, they find it, and you ask them not to arrest you can they choke you to death for resisting?
DrafterX Offline
#39 Posted: Wed, Dec 10 2014, 3:13 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,559
depends on whether you took the turkey or the ham... Mellow
ZRX1200 Offline
#40 Posted: Wed, Dec 10 2014, 3:22 PM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,626
Victor, you say this is pointless (policy) but you don't see the incrimental creep?

The fact you pointed out emphasizes it IMO
DrafterX Offline
#41 Posted: Wed, Dec 10 2014, 3:33 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,559
When you were here before..
Couldn't look you in the eye.... Whistle
teedubbya Offline
#42 Posted: Wed, Dec 10 2014, 3:37 PM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
DrafterX wrote:
When you were here before..
Couldn't look you in the eye.... Whistle



Well... at least until you were done blowing him but the shame prolly made it even more difficult then
DrafterX Offline
#43 Posted: Wed, Dec 10 2014, 3:38 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,559
Mad
HockeyDad Offline
#44 Posted: Wed, Dec 10 2014, 3:42 PM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,156
teedubbya wrote:
If you ask the police to come find the weed in your closet, they find it, and you ask them not to arrest you can they choke you to death for resisting?



Hopefully.
Buckwheat Offline
#45 Posted: Wed, Dec 10 2014, 3:47 PM EST
Joined: 04-15-2004
Posts: 12,251
TMCTLT wrote:
Yeah I'll bet they're NOT expecting the phone to ring off the hook......
This guy's a real tool bag, using Ebola and such as comparisons......head in ass syndrome fog


I second the above statement from the right honorable gentleman from Avon. fog
victor809 Offline
#46 Posted: Wed, Dec 10 2014, 4:29 PM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
ZRX1200 wrote:
Victor, you say this is pointless (policy) but you don't see the incrimental creep?

The fact you pointed out emphasizes it IMO


But the creep isn't in relation to actual rights citizens have.

The only place this could get interesting is the following situation:
Wife and husband live together in a home they share, husband has some illegal weapons (unregistered... maybe some guns he used in a couple store robberies or something, but in a location unknown to the wife). If, after finding out the husband is screwing the local diner waitress, the wife calls the cops to come and "see if they can find any weapons" and they do. That becomes a problem.

The husband is a co-owner of the house, I would argue that the wife can't just give away his freedom from unlawful search and seizure. I think if some instances like that pop up, then it could get a little odd.

Of course, I'm not certain that's any different than if the wife just called 911 and said she was sure her husband had some illegal guns and she wanted to report him. The po-po will come and search either way.
DrafterX Offline
#47 Posted: Wed, Dec 10 2014, 4:42 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,559
ya but she prolly wouldn't get a turkey or a ham... Mellow
teedubbya Offline
#48 Posted: Wed, Dec 10 2014, 5:34 PM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
Again, convinving you to give up your rights is still creap.
victor809 Offline
#49 Posted: Wed, Dec 10 2014, 5:42 PM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
teedubbya wrote:
Again, convinving you to give up your rights is still creap.


Meh... I think we're splitting hairs here, but I would argue that you aren't giving up any rights. Your right is against unlawful search and seizure. If you are requesting said search/seizure, that doesn't even intersect with your rights.

It's kind of like saying voluntarily choosing not to bear arms is giving up your rights to do so.
teedubbya Offline
#50 Posted: Wed, Dec 10 2014, 5:49 PM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
If I give permission for search and seizure that would normally not be legal (I have the right not to have it happen and if it did it would be bogus if not punishable for them doing it) then I have directly given up my right. Just because I gave it up doesn't mean it was never a right. Thus there is a very solid intersection here.

As for the right to bear arms, if I choose not to I have not actively waived that right by telling someone it's ok to take it away from me.

As for the frog boil if I give up my rights voluntarily I probably will not notice the heat until it's too late.
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