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University of Oklahoma SAE fraternity closed after racist chant goes viral.
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gryphonms Offline
#1 Posted: Mon, Mar 9 2015, 9:52 AM EST
Joined: 04-14-2013
Posts: 1,983
Is this a justifiable action or an action going way overboard to be PC? The video was not posted by the fraternity. What say you?
HockeyDad Offline
#2 Posted: Mon, Mar 9 2015, 10:35 AM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,156
Flyover state frat outrage
Burner02 Offline
#3 Posted: Mon, Mar 9 2015, 1:43 PM EST
Joined: 12-21-2010
Posts: 12,884
Drafter's fault.
rfenst Offline
#4 Posted: Mon, Mar 9 2015, 3:37 PM EST
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,345
gryphonms wrote:
Is this a justifiable action or an action going way overboard to be PC? The video was not posted by the fraternity. What say you?



Totally justified.
dstieger Offline
#5 Posted: Mon, Mar 9 2015, 3:57 PM EST
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
what say YOU, gryph?
victor809 Offline
#6 Posted: Mon, Mar 9 2015, 4:18 PM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
dstieger wrote:
what say YOU, gryph?



Gryph just wishes the video didn't make him look so fat.....


j/k
sd72 Offline
#7 Posted: Mon, Mar 9 2015, 4:45 PM EST
Joined: 03-09-2011
Posts: 9,600
Is it illegal to be racist? You can burn a flag, march in parades as the KKK, and be defended by the ACLU. Is it wrong and stupid to hate someone because of where they're from, or color, but is it now illegal too?
victor809 Offline
#8 Posted: Mon, Mar 9 2015, 4:46 PM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
sd72 wrote:
Is it illegal to be racist? You can burn a flag, march in parades as the KKK, and be defended by the ACLU. Is it wrong and stupid to hate someone because of where they're from, or color, but is it now illegal too?


who said it was illegal?
sd72 Offline
#9 Posted: Mon, Mar 9 2015, 4:48 PM EST
Joined: 03-09-2011
Posts: 9,600
That's what I'm asking.
dstieger Offline
#10 Posted: Mon, Mar 9 2015, 5:08 PM EST
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
Legality aside, I have no problem with the concept of penalties for stupid actions
victor809 Offline
#11 Posted: Mon, Mar 9 2015, 5:12 PM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
sd72 wrote:
That's what I'm asking.


Perhaps I should have been more clear, as I haven't been following the story closely.

Who is treating the SAE kids as if their actions were illegal?
gryphonms Offline
#12 Posted: Mon, Mar 9 2015, 6:26 PM EST
Joined: 04-14-2013
Posts: 1,983
I am fine with SAE national headquarters closing that particular branch. After watching and listening to the video I think that was an appropriate action.
gryphonms Offline
#13 Posted: Mon, Mar 9 2015, 6:27 PM EST
Joined: 04-14-2013
Posts: 1,983
Darn video always make me look heavier than I really am.
wheelrite Offline
#14 Posted: Mon, Mar 9 2015, 6:34 PM EST
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
gryphonms wrote:
Darn video always makes me look like the queer that I am,,.



oh my,,

wheel,
rfenst Offline
#15 Posted: Mon, Mar 9 2015, 6:46 PM EST
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,345
Wikipedia"

"Sigma Alpha Epsilon has a long record of racist incidents surrounding its members. In 1982 SAE members at the University of Cincinnati were suspended for a racially demeaning party corresponding with Martin Luther King Jr.'s birthday.[14] In 2013 SAE members at Washington University in St. Louis were suspended for singing racial slurs to African American Students.[15] In 2014, SAE members at Clemson University were suspended for throwing a racially charged, "Cripmas" party.[16] In 2014, SAE members at the University of Arizona were suspended for attacking Jewish students.[17]"
ZRX1200 Offline
#16 Posted: Mon, Mar 9 2015, 7:27 PM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,626
Wikipediais ALWAYS accurate.

This is a slippery slope.
teedubbya Offline
#17 Posted: Mon, Mar 9 2015, 9:26 PM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
I heard cbid is considering an SAE alumni forum.
teedubbya Offline
#18 Posted: Mon, Mar 9 2015, 9:29 PM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
I heard Vick is a tri lam of was that a bisomethingorother?
Thunder.Gerbil Offline
#19 Posted: Mon, Mar 9 2015, 9:33 PM EST
Joined: 11-02-2006
Posts: 121,359
ZRX1200 wrote:
Wikipediais ALWAYS accurate.

This is a slippery slope.



Sadly, as error prone as it is, wikipedia is probably more accurate than 98.2% of the "facts" thrown out by the groupthink which posts here.
rfenst Offline
#20 Posted: Mon, Mar 9 2015, 9:40 PM EST
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,345
ZRX1200 wrote:
Wikipediais ALWAYS accurate.

This is a slippery slope.


No, it isn't always accurate. But, that doesn't mean it isn't in this case. I don't know, you don't know so take it for whatever it is worth to you.
teedubbya Offline
#21 Posted: Mon, Mar 9 2015, 9:57 PM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
Tree fity?
ZRX1200 Offline
#22 Posted: Mon, Mar 9 2015, 10:06 PM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,626
I didn't say it couldn't be true rfenster, just pointing out that they're often off.

Thundergerbil *shrug*
Thunder.Gerbil Offline
#23 Posted: Mon, Mar 9 2015, 10:31 PM EST
Joined: 11-02-2006
Posts: 121,359
ZRX1200 wrote:
I didn't say it couldn't be true rfenster, just pointing out that they're often off.

Thundergerbil *shrug*


Wasn't talking about you, buddy. Just making a general observation.
victor809 Offline
#24 Posted: Tue, Mar 10 2015, 11:37 AM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
ZRX1200 wrote:
I didn't say it couldn't be true rfenster, just pointing out that they're often off.

Thundergerbil *shrug*


"Often" is an interesting word.

I'd be curious what the accuracy rating actually is.
frankj1 Offline
#25 Posted: Tue, Mar 10 2015, 11:39 AM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,223
victor809 wrote:
"Often" is an interesting word.

I'd be curious what the accuracy rating actually is.

"Bing" it.
jetblasted Offline
#26 Posted: Tue, Mar 10 2015, 11:40 AM EST
Joined: 08-30-2004
Posts: 42,595
I heard Donald Sterling offered his support, and stuff.

Mellow
victor809 Offline
#27 Posted: Tue, Mar 10 2015, 11:40 AM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reliability_of_Wikipedia#Comparative_studies

what do you know... there's a wikipedia article about that
teedubbya Offline
#28 Posted: Tue, Mar 10 2015, 11:41 AM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
I hope that means something different than Cosby it.

Who am I kidding. No I don't.
Burner02 Offline
#29 Posted: Tue, Mar 10 2015, 12:42 PM EST
Joined: 12-21-2010
Posts: 12,884
University of Oklahoma expels 2 students over racist video; investigation ongoing

The University of Oklahoma announced Tuesday the expulsion of two students identified as playing 'leadership' roles in the racist chant that was caught on video that led to a fraternity's banishment from campus.

President David Boren said in a statement that the investigation is ongoing and once other students are identified, "they will be subject to appropriate disciplinary action."

Boren has been swift with his condemnation of the video and banished the fraternity from campus. The students were likely expelled for violating Title VI of the Civil Rights Act, which prohibits racial discrimination.


Deserved IMO.
I'm Batman Offline
#30 Posted: Tue, Mar 10 2015, 1:17 PM EST
Joined: 01-08-2015
Posts: 394
teedubbya wrote:
Tree fity?


God Dammit Loch Ness Monster, I ain't gonna give you no tree fity
victor809 Offline
#31 Posted: Tue, Mar 10 2015, 2:09 PM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
Apparently the house mother was singing it too...
http://jezebel.com/happy-sae-frat-house-mother-sings-racist-chant-america-1690498420
gryphonms Offline
#32 Posted: Tue, Mar 10 2015, 2:52 PM EST
Joined: 04-14-2013
Posts: 1,983
Why does that not surprise me?
victor809 Offline
#33 Posted: Tue, Mar 10 2015, 5:43 PM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/03/10/no-a-public-university-may-not-expel-students-for-racist-speech/?postshare=3461426013474986

This is an interesting take. I am having trouble finding fault in the argument here... mainly because the school is a state school.

These kids are disgusting, but I'm not sure the state has the right to expel them. They aren't employees... the state isn't a private institution... and apparently code of conduct violations regarding free-speech have run into problems in the past (which I can support, as free-speech based protests at universities were a cornerstone of the civil rights movement... imagine if all those students had just been expelled)...

It's an interesting dilemma, one which I'm glad I don't have to decide.
gryphonms Offline
#34 Posted: Tue, Mar 10 2015, 5:53 PM EST
Joined: 04-14-2013
Posts: 1,983
I think the closing of the frat house is fine. Expelling the students is not. The government, which I consider a state run university to be, does not have the right to tell someone what to believe or think.

Fahrenheit 451 comes to mind. Also even a private university would be over stepping their bounds if they receive any public funding.
rfenst Offline
#35 Posted: Tue, Mar 10 2015, 6:10 PM EST
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,345
They violated the rules as if it were a contract with a "morals clause".
victor809 Offline
#36 Posted: Tue, Mar 10 2015, 6:38 PM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
rfenst wrote:
They violated the rules as if it were a contract with a "morals clause".


Except the question is whether a state university can enforce a "morals clause" when it comes to speech. I don't know, I'm not a lawyer, but the article I saw referenced a whole crapload of cases...
Quote:

Student speech outside the classroom and outside academic assignments. Most clearly, students generally may not be expelled, suspended, or otherwise disciplined for what they say in student newspapers, at demonstrations, in out-of-class conversations, and the like. The Supreme Court made this clear in Papish v. Board of Curators, 410 U.S. 667 (1973), and Healy v. James, 408 U.S. 169 (1972). Lower courts have followed suit, especially in the late 1980s and 1990s cases that have struck down student speech codes. See, e.g., Dambrot v. Central Michigan Univ., 55 F.3d 1177 (6th Cir. 1995); Iota Xi v. George Mason Univ., 993 F.2d 386 (4th Cir. 1993); UWM Post v. Univ. of Wisc., 74 F. Supp. 1163 (E.D. Wis. 1991); Doe v. Univ. of Mich., 721 F. Supp. 852 (E.D. Mich. 1989).



Like I said, I don't like the little sh%ts, but I'm not 100% sure they can be expelled like that.
ZRX1200 Offline
#37 Posted: Tue, Mar 10 2015, 6:51 PM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,626
Yes it's settled law they cannot. Even some precedence in private colleges.....

So now the schools are open to lawsuit.

Freedom of speech isn't for popular speech, and these little aszsholes should be shunned by normal people. But these actions were knee jerk and not right. It's IMPOSSIBLE that these students got any due process in 2 days.

Do you all only support rights you agree with when it's comfortable?

If they had scholarships I support pulling those, but not expulsion or the housing eviction.
frankj1 Offline
#38 Posted: Tue, Mar 10 2015, 7:10 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,223
Freedom of speech isn't for popular speech...

I can not tell you how much I love that line, but it's just as much as how much I love when the ACLU defends Nazis. I simply can't express it to those who don't get it but you do.

I'll say this though, it makes me more comfortable believing that I must still be free when I hear it...filthy as the acts and actors may be. In fact, the worse, the better.
victor809 Offline
#39 Posted: Tue, Mar 10 2015, 7:13 PM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
ZRX1200 wrote:
or the housing eviction.


Housing eviction may actually be legit. A lot of those fraternity housing set ups are part of the national charter. If the frat gets pulled, the housing agreements fall apart.

MACS Offline
#40 Posted: Tue, Mar 10 2015, 7:24 PM EST
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,809
Wait, wait, wait... African Americans can have "all black" colleges, but an integrated college can't have a fraternity that doesn't like black people?

Seems fair.

Chef
victor809 Offline
#41 Posted: Tue, Mar 10 2015, 7:30 PM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
I know you're just trying to stir up some sh$t MACS... but I don't believe you understand the history behind the "all black" colleges. Nor do I believe (I could be wrong) any of them are actually all black any longer.
MACS Offline
#42 Posted: Tue, Mar 10 2015, 8:30 PM EST
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,809
Here's my point... you think blacks don't do this about whites? They do. Never gets publicized. Wayans brothers made a movie mocking white girls... that was funny. If white dudes made a movie mocking black girls it'd be an outrage.

But our history of discrimination and mistreatment has made us ultra sensitive to racism, as long as it is racism against blacks.

To be honest, and I have said this before, I believe what most people call racism is actually prejudice. We all have a modicum of it, it's nature.
MACS Offline
#43 Posted: Tue, Mar 10 2015, 8:36 PM EST
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,809
To further the point... Anthony posted the thread about the Marshall who was shot and killed.

The Marshall was black, and the guy who shot him was black... and wanted for killing two others. Why wasn't this plastered all over Yahoo and the national news media? Sure, a few local stories... but it was not on every damn media outlet from here to eternity like all the ones where a cop shot a criminal, like St Louis and, recently, Wisconsin.

If black lives matter... why is this Marshall so insignificant? Because that story doesn't get the clicks like a story about made up racism. That Marshall's life matters. In fact, it matters more to me than the criminals who were shot and killed.
victor809 Offline
#44 Posted: Tue, Mar 10 2015, 8:43 PM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
MACS wrote:
Here's my point... you think blacks don't do this about whites? They do. Never gets publicized. Wayans brothers made a movie mocking white girls... that was funny. If white dudes made a movie mocking black girls it'd be an outrage.



This is a red herring. There simply is not the equivalent position for blacks to "do this about whites". There is no word for white people which refers directly to centuries of not being considered human. Joking about lynching a white person simply doesn't have the historical power behind it.

Within the context of the SAE song, this is simply not a relevant argument.
ZRX1200 Offline
#45 Posted: Tue, Mar 10 2015, 8:44 PM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,626
AMEN MACS!
victor809 Offline
#46 Posted: Tue, Mar 10 2015, 8:49 PM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
MACS wrote:
To further the point... Anthony posted the thread about the Marshall who was shot and killed.

The Marshall was black, and the guy who shot him was black... and wanted for killing two others. Why wasn't this plastered all over Yahoo and the national news media? Sure, a few local stories... but it was not on every damn media outlet from here to eternity like all the ones where a cop shot a criminal, like St Louis and, recently, Wisconsin.

If black lives matter... why is this Marshall so insignificant? Because that story doesn't get the clicks like a story about made up racism. That Marshall's life matters. In fact, it matters more to me than the criminals who were shot and killed.


.... this isn't really relevant. But also disingenuous. TW has addressed it a million times in this forum more articulately than I can.
MACS Offline
#47 Posted: Tue, Mar 10 2015, 8:54 PM EST
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,809
victor809 wrote:
This is a red herring. There simply is not the equivalent position for blacks to "do this about whites". There is no word for white people which refers directly to centuries of not being considered human. Joking about lynching a white person simply doesn't have the historical power behind it.

Within the context of the SAE song, this is simply not a relevant argument.


I didn't see the video or hear the song, so I don't know. I don't care to.

But your opinion on the matter is exactly what's wrong. We're EQUALS. So yes, it does mean the same thing. Just because bad things happened to their ancestors doesn't give them free reign to flip the tables. It was wrong for us to treat them poorly. It is wrong of them to do the same thing to us, no matter what.

It's only okay to call me cracker because I don't care. Herfing
victor809 Offline
#48 Posted: Tue, Mar 10 2015, 8:55 PM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
MACS wrote:
To further the point... Anthony posted the thread about the Marshall who was shot and killed.

The Marshall was black, and the guy who shot him was black... and wanted for killing two others. Why wasn't this plastered all over Yahoo and the national news media? Sure, a few local stories... but it was not on every damn media outlet from here to eternity like all the ones where a cop shot a criminal, like St Louis and, recently, Wisconsin.

If black lives matter... why is this Marshall so insignificant? Because that story doesn't get the clicks like a story about made up racism. That Marshall's life matters. In fact, it matters more to me than the criminals who were shot and killed.



I found TWs statement:
Quote:

This was a person in authority shooting someone who was not in authority. People not in authority shooting or killing someone in authority is a totally different issue (no less tragic) used as fodder.
victor809 Offline
#49 Posted: Tue, Mar 10 2015, 8:59 PM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
MACS wrote:
I didn't see the video or hear the song, so I don't know. I don't care to.

But your opinion on the matter is exactly what's wrong. We're EQUALS. So yes, it does mean the same thing. Just because bad things happened to their ancestors doesn't give them free reign to flip the tables. It was wrong for us to treat them poorly. It is wrong of them to do the same thing to us, no matter what.

It's only okay to call me cracker because I don't care. Herfing


You missed my point.

Us being equals doesn't mean there aren't references I can make which simply cannot be made about me.

Take it away from racial issues.

Lets say you have a close friend.
Some time in the past you screwed your friend's wife (while married). You got past it and remained friends.

You don't bring up having screwed your friend's wife, do you? It isn't like he can say "I screwed your wife too!"... because he didn't. You may be equals but your relationship is asymmetrical, and because of it, as the wife screwer you are responsible for policing your behavior a little bit more.

Now.. .don't get me wrong.. some time in the future maybe you and your friend will be able to laugh about it, but looking at the situation now, we may not be screwing our friend's wife, but she's still giving us a handy every now and then when everyone's drunk.
MACS Offline
#50 Posted: Tue, Mar 10 2015, 9:01 PM EST
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,809
victor809 wrote:
.... this isn't really relevant. But also disingenuous. TW has addressed it a million times in this forum more articulately than I can.


It is relevant. Our society, via the news media and race baiters like Sharpton and Jackson, is perpetuating the racial divide in this country.

We are going to disagree. Just like always.
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