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Louisiana governor signs 'Blue Lives Matter' bill
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teedubbya Offline
#51 Posted: Fri, May 27 2016, 5:09 PM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
Victor somebody thought it was an issue and necessary and somebody thought that was the solution. The trick is to be that somebody. Can you imagine if that somebody came from in here?

I hear Islam is hate and Muslims sole purpose is to oppress and kill us and our way of life. Somebody should do something.

Everyone thinks their view is legitimate and can justify inequity as long as it benefits the right folks.
victor809 Offline
#52 Posted: Fri, May 27 2016, 5:17 PM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
True. But I'm trying to avoid making a value judgement on whether something was a good or bad effect. I'm just trying to figure out the logical path taken... ie - someone determined that in their opinion certain crimes were not getting punished in certain areas commensurate with the punishment of similar crimes against other groups. To correct for area specific.... Prejudices... They applied federal laws.

I'm not trying to say it justifies anything... I'm stating they circumvented what they perceived as a problem at that time in our history. I think it is important to understand how things came to be, because it can allow us to try to understand why certain adjustments might not seem logical.
MACS Offline
#53 Posted: Sun, May 29 2016, 7:36 PM EST
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,833
I've taken some time to consider this... which is progress for me.

I'm not sure where you got that I was all "states rights", but you argue with everyone... so I'll give you some leeway. You make valid points, in that federal mandates and states rights don't jive, and that not every crime is the same and they all deserve a proper sentence. Truthfully, I am not a fan of mandatory sentencing, which is another name for sentencing requirements.

However... we have left it to the judges. They've failed us, miserably. I don't know what the solution is. I'm grasping at straws. You're happy to criticize my suggestions, but offer none of your own.

What are we to do, to make sure criminals are punished appropriately?
frankj1 Offline
#54 Posted: Sun, May 29 2016, 9:10 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,228
what scares me is that we seem to be stuck in a stream of logical discussion.
victor809 Offline
#55 Posted: Sun, May 29 2016, 9:17 PM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
MACS... You're right, I've just been criticizing your suggestions without offering my own. Part of that is because we have a system in place, albeit an imperfect one, which is intended to resolve those issues. Your suggestions were to tear out that system and replace it with... Good thoughts... Perhaps it's a bit harsh of me to criticize, but I'm a grumpy old man and have a short temper.

Perhaps a solution would be to have federally elected local judges. The original thought was to have people judge from the community... But that clearly has issues, maybe we need a pool of federally elected judges assigned to a local circuit court for a period of a few years, then rotated. That way it would eliminate local prejudices in sentencing.

Anyway, my criticism was of people trying to misappropriate an existing imperfect system to apply it to a group which shares no real situational similarities to the original groups the system is intended to protect. This then turned into a "tear it all down" argument, which seems just as short sighted. I know it seems like I like to argue all the time, but I think there is a consistent thread to comments I disagree with, and usually it comes down to people not thinking through the purpose and impact systems have, when trying to make blanket and largely empty statements.
Speyside Offline
#56 Posted: Sun, May 29 2016, 10:32 PM EST
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
Victor, I follow your logic, I also understand that state and federal laws are different. But I have a problem in that I perceive hate crime laws as being double jeopardy. Certainly this is not absolute, but any double jeopardy is bad. I would much rather we had found a way to properly enforce existing laws or created new laws that did not open that can of worms.
tonygraz Offline
#57 Posted: Sun, May 29 2016, 11:03 PM EST
Joined: 08-11-2008
Posts: 20,288
If Black Lives matter didn't come up on the news, would anyone be pushing their group lives matter?
MACS Offline
#58 Posted: Mon, May 30 2016, 12:13 AM EST
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,833
tonygraz wrote:
If Black Lives matter didn't come up on the news, would anyone be pushing their group lives matter?


If black lives truly mattered to black people... would they not be protesting in black neighborhoods? Where more black people are killed at the hands of other black people than have ever been killed by police?

They have an agenda. It is to promote black people. It isn't for equality. It isn't for justice. The president of the US is HALF BLACK. Say that out loud. He's half black, and half white.

We have gone beyond equality and replaced it with affirmative action. Quotas that tell us qualifications no longer matter. We must have so many employees of a certain race, color, creed, sex, and sexual orientation. Everyone is a protected class... except whitey. Which is fine, if you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth. Not so much if you're working class... ask military folks who sat on selection/promotion boards. There ARE quotas. Which is biased against who?
teedubbya Offline
#59 Posted: Mon, May 30 2016, 9:29 AM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
Double jeopardy doesn't apply at all based on the definition of double jeopardy and the courts have codified that. I'm against them for a slew of other reasons though.
Speyside Offline
#60 Posted: Mon, May 30 2016, 10:11 AM EST
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
I understand that by the legal definition it is not double jeopardy, but non the less the reality is double jeopardy.
banderl Offline
#61 Posted: Mon, May 30 2016, 11:01 AM EST
Joined: 09-09-2008
Posts: 10,153
A black guy was charged with a hate crime last week in Chicago. He robbed and stabbed some white guy while yelling how much he hated whites.

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2016/05/24/man-charged-in-stabbing-on-west-loop-bridge/
Brewha Offline
#62 Posted: Mon, May 30 2016, 11:23 AM EST
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,201
victor809 wrote:
Do people understand the purpose of hate crimes laws?



No - And I don't believe they understand the laws either.

A given crime is often categorized and punished by the perceived intent of the perpetrator. Murder 1 vs. murder 2, etc.
Where a "viscous will" is present the crime is more serious. And where the hate is against a group it is more serious still.

So murder is not always murder in the eyes of the law.....
Covfireman Offline
#63 Posted: Mon, May 30 2016, 4:05 PM EST
Joined: 09-03-2015
Posts: 809
Brewha wrote:
No - And I don't believe they understand the laws either.

A given crime is often categorized and punished by the perceived intent of the perpetrator. Murder 1 vs. murder 2, etc.
Where a "viscous will" is present the crime is more serious. And where the hate is against a group it is more serious still.

So murder is not always murder in the eyes of the law.....


That should bother everyone . who decides who's life is is worth the least ? I know according to Obama that would be people like me .Later it could be Trump deciding that murder of the wealthy individual is an economic murder with an outrageous minimum sentence.
teedubbya Offline
#64 Posted: Mon, May 30 2016, 5:11 PM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
I figured since double jeopardy is a legal term it would be reality and stuff. Who knew?
Speyside Offline
#65 Posted: Mon, May 30 2016, 5:13 PM EST
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
Brewha, why is one premeditated murder worse than another? The crime is the same. To say because there are racial implications, as an example, does not make the crime any more or less horrific.
Brewha Offline
#66 Posted: Mon, May 30 2016, 6:30 PM EST
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,201
Covfireman wrote:
That should bother everyone . who decides who's life is is worth the least ? I know according to Obama that would be people like me .Later it could be Trump deciding that murder of the wealthy individual is an economic murder with an outrageous minimum sentence.

No it should not bother anyone.

wait - Obama has it in for Firemen???

Think
Brewha Offline
#67 Posted: Mon, May 30 2016, 6:42 PM EST
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,201
Speyside wrote:
Brewha, why is one premeditated murder worse than another? The crime is the same. To say because there are racial implications, as an example, does not make the crime any more or less horrific.

Because the depths of a crime is about motive, among other things.

Hating and murdering another because they took your lover or stole from you is a murder of personal circumstance. Killing someone because of their race, creed or religion shows a broad sociopathic motive. And the innate desire to repeat the crime.

Is it a worse crime to kill someone who did you wrong, or someone who happend to be wearing a rainbow t-shirt? You can by and large murder someone who threatens you. You can kill someone in a crime of passion and get off with little punishment. But plan to kill someone and do it makes you antisocial. Killing base on their segment of the population make you an open threat. And the worst of people.....
DrafterX Offline
#68 Posted: Tue, May 31 2016, 6:58 AM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,563
Anti-social people are the worst... someone should take them out... Mellow
tonygraz Offline
#69 Posted: Tue, May 31 2016, 8:49 AM EST
Joined: 08-11-2008
Posts: 20,288
Dancing, dinner and a movie ? What are you suggesting, Drafter ?
DrafterX Offline
#70 Posted: Tue, May 31 2016, 9:39 AM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,563
what
tonygraz Offline
#71 Posted: Tue, May 31 2016, 11:49 AM EST
Joined: 08-11-2008
Posts: 20,288
When
DrafterX Offline
#72 Posted: Tue, May 31 2016, 12:00 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,563
Mellow
Brewha Offline
#73 Posted: Tue, May 31 2016, 12:06 PM EST
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,201
You know, when I first saw this thread I thought it was a Smurf joke….
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