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Death knell for earth.
Speyside Offline
#51 Posted:
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
The government should install CNG stations as well. A CNG vehicle is of no use if you can not refuel it.
DrafterX Offline
#52 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,551
Ya... that's what I meant.. I'd have to o drive 40 miles the wrong way to fill up right now... Mellow
DrafterX Offline
#53 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,551
But the gubment shouldn't get that involved... I was just thinking about the conversion level.. kinda like they did for adding solar panels to your house... Mellow
delta1 Offline
#54 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,788
nice catch, Drafter...you almost sounded like a libtard...by the way, the house we bought from a family of strong Christian conservatives has a solar power system that is so efficient that we haven't paid anything for electricity yet this year...we actually have several hundred dollars worth of KWH stored to help us through the summer months, when it gets really hot here...
frankj1 Offline
#55 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
you should share the surplus with energy deprived families of all races.
Abrignac Offline
#56 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,278
frankj1 wrote:
you should share the surplus with energy deprived families of all races.



Let them eat cake...by the ocean.
jjanecka Offline
#57 Posted:
Joined: 12-08-2015
Posts: 4,334
F'ck that Frank... they would just let it go to waste.
frankj1 Offline
#58 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
jjanecka wrote:
F'ck that Frank... they would just let it go to waste.

true, true.
frankj1 Offline
#59 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
Abrignac wrote:
Let them eat cake...by the ocean.

mmmm, cake.
MMMMM! Ocean
DrafterX Offline
#60 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,551
LOL
delta1 Offline
#61 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,788
frankj1 wrote:
you should share the surplus with energy deprived families of all races.



haha...my multi-racial tribe lives nearby...
DrafterX Offline
#62 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,551
Maybe I should park my RV in the sun..... Mellow
TMCTLT Offline
#63 Posted:
Joined: 11-22-2007
Posts: 19,733


http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/the-paris-climate-agreement-was-a-terrible-deal-for-the-us/article/2624974


MACS Offline
#64 Posted:
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,779
I was just thinking that tonygraz would be by shortly to tell you your source was right wing, yet not bother to refute any of the data contained therein... when it dawned on me...

It's been really quiet around here, is Tony on vacation?
DrafterX Offline
#65 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,551
I heard he was banned... Mellow
opelmanta1900 Offline
#66 Posted:
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
I heard since the software update they don't know how to ban people anymore...
DrafterX Offline
#67 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,551
not true... there have been bannings since the crash... they can't post pics or process orders but they can ban... Mellow
frankj1 Offline
#68 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
hank has been away as well.
DrafterX Offline
#69 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,551
Think

they're prolly laid up in hammock somewhere.... Mellow
MACS Offline
#70 Posted:
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,779
frankj1 wrote:
hank has been away as well.


With Tony and Victor gone... I think the arguments all but vanished.
victor809 Offline
#71 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
So... I'm guessing none of you actually read the article tcby posted with any critical reading.

It says nothing. It's an opinion piece at best. An opinion with very little supporting evidence.
opelmanta1900 Offline
#72 Posted:
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
You clicked on that ****?
DrafterX Offline
#73 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,551
I didn't.. Mellow
MACS Offline
#74 Posted:
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,779
Bjorn Lomborg is director of the Copenhagen Consensus Center, and author of The Skeptical Environmentalist and Cool It.

Like the Kyoto Protocol before it, the drastically over-hyped Paris climate treaty has fallen victim to political and economic reality.

Now that President Donald Trump has officially pulled the United States from the accord, it is time to declare the entire Kyoto-Paris approach to global warming dead and buried. Instead of scrapping over the treaty’s corpse, this is an opportunity to try a new, better and more efficient approach to solving global warming.


Right now, the chances of anything so constructive seem slim. Rhetoric is overheated to the point of absurdity. Environmental campaigners condemn Mr. Trump for dooming the entire planet to a fiery Armageddon, yet claim rashly that the treaty could survive without the United States. It will not, and it should not.

The hyperbole and outrage can’t hide the truth: even with the United States included, the treaty was not going to make much difference to global warming. Its grand rhetoric was never matched by the actual carbon-cutting promises within its pages. A lot was made of the treaty’s fanciful pledge to keep global temperature rises as low as 1.5 C. But that would have been impossible in all realistic scenarios other than a devastating global recession.

The UN’s own Framework Convention on Climate Change estimates that even if every country had made every single cut promised in the treaty to the fullest extent, CO2 emissions would only drop by 56 billion tons by 2030. Keeping temperature rises below 2 C – a less stringent goal even than the treaty promise of 1.5 C – requires a reduction of around 6,000 billion tons of CO2 emissions across the century.

So, even if Hillary Clinton had beaten Mr. Trump and had kept the United States in the treaty, and even if every single national leader on the planet (and their successors) had unflinchingly stood by every single treaty promise for year after year, regardless of economic downturn or political crisis, the Paris Treaty would have left 99 per cent of the problem in place.

Before Mr. Trump axed the treaty, many environmentalists quietly acknowledged this. They praised the agreement regardless, because of the political value of world leaders focusing on climate change and because they believed that much larger carbon-cutting promises would come later.

That foolhardy assumption flew in the face of history. As early as 1998, the Kyoto Protocol was sold to the world as the solution to climate change. Every honest analysis showed that its impact would be trivial. Backers claimed that it was just the beginning. Similar to Paris, the carbon-cutting treaty wasted energy and distracted attention from any effective solution to climate change.

The Kyoto-Paris approach fails politically and economically. Even if the Paris Treaty had survived for now, it would have faced a massive hurdle in three years, when rich countries needed to cough up $100-billion a year in “climate aid” to the developing world. That is 10 times more than donors have managed to put together in the past five years.

And that’s only a fraction of the price tag. Today’s green solar and wind technology requires hundreds of billions of dollars in annual subsidies to achieve trivial temperature cuts. Trying to make significant cuts means shifting energy consumption from cheap fossil fuels to more expensive green energy. Even when done most effectively, this reduces economic growth.

We are told that green energy is becoming cheaper. But it can rarely compete with fossil fuels, and not at all when there isn’t sun or wind, instead requiring expensive backup. That is why the little renewable energy that is effective will happen anyway, while most of the rest requires vast subsidies and achieves little. The International Energy Agency finds that wind provides 0.5 per cent of today’s energy needs and solar PV, a minuscule 0.1 per cent. Even by 2040, if the Paris Treaty had kept going, after spending $3-trillion in direct subsidies, the IEA expected wind and solar to provide just 1.9 per cent and 1 per cent of global energy, respectively.

That is far from what is needed to transform our engine of development. To solve global warming, we need to invest far more into making green energy competitive. If solar and wind generation and storage were cheaper than fossil fuels, it wouldn’t be necessary to force or subsidize anyone to stop burning coal and oil.

Research for Copenhagen Consensus shows a green energy R&D fund worth just 0.2 per cent of global GDP would dramatically increase the chance of a technological revolution. This would be significantly cheaper and much more effective than the Kyoto-Paris approach. Economists calculate returns to society of around $11 for every dollar invested.

A technology-led effort could advance not just solar and wind but all alternative-energy technologies. Encouraging world leaders would be far easier than strong-arming and bribing them into cutting growth – but it is also something that a smaller group of countries could pursue alone, and reap benefits. A carbon price might support such a policy, but climate-change policy must logically be technology-led.

The Kyoto-Paris approach has failed. Now is time to finally stop trying to make fossil fuels too expensive to use, and instead invest in the research needed to make green energy too cheap for the entire world to resist.
DrafterX Offline
#75 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,551
MACS wrote:


So, even if Hillary Clinton had beaten Mr. Trump and had kept the United States in the treaty, .



She lost... Mellow
victor809 Offline
#76 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
Because it's hard and the methods we can currently think of implementing can only achieve a small percentage of our goal we should give up and scrap it all.

Wow... sure am glad we didn't have people like that when we needed to start a space program.
DrafterX Offline
#77 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,551
Well, we had to beat the Russians..... Are the Russians winning the Climate Change War..?? Huh
dstieger Offline
#78 Posted:
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
DrafterX wrote:
Well, we had to beat the Russians..... Are the Russians winning the Climate Change War..?? Huh


I dunno...maybe call Jared and ask
DrafterX Offline
#79 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,551
the Subway guy..?? Huh
MACS Offline
#80 Posted:
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,779
victor809 wrote:
Because it's hard and the methods we can currently think of implementing can only achieve a small percentage of our goal we should give up and scrap it all.

Wow... sure am glad we didn't have people like that when we needed to start a space program.


Not quite... it is more like, "Because spending trillions of dollars, and adversely affecting the economies of a handful of countries (the ones that would actually participate) is NOT WORTH the negligible difference it would actually make in the temperature of the planet."
victor809 Offline
#81 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
So what's the long term plan?

(And you do realize that generally as a species we get better at things as we do them... right?) Every technology we have ever created has been expensive and inefficient at the beginning and we find better and cheaper ways of accomplishing it. But if we don't do it we won't overcome that learning curve....

But I like the boldness of your plan... it's gonna cost a lot and isn't going to have a large impact, so let's wait for a miracle to fix the problem. ... you don't happen to have a plan b of "ask people to pray for a better environment" do ya?
DrafterX Offline
#82 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,551
Why can't we have a plan without paying for the world's plan too... we're limiting our emissions and stuff... Mellow
MACS Offline
#83 Posted:
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,779
Ah, Victor... didn't read the whole article, did you? If you did... (you didn't)... you would not have missed the solution provided.

"To solve global warming, we need to invest far more into making green energy competitive. If solar and wind generation and storage were cheaper than fossil fuels, it wouldn’t be necessary to force or subsidize anyone to stop burning coal and oil.

Research for Copenhagen Consensus shows a green energy R&D fund worth just 0.2 per cent of global GDP would dramatically increase the chance of a technological revolution. This would be significantly cheaper and much more effective than the Kyoto-Paris approach. Economists calculate returns to society of around $11 for every dollar invested."
victor809 Offline
#84 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
I'm not sure I understand how his approach is significantly different then.

MACS Offline
#85 Posted:
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,779
victor809 wrote:
I'm not sure I understand how his approach is significantly different then.



Significantly CHEAPER. Return on investment, dude... that second part I highlighted for you.
victor809 Offline
#86 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
... I understand ROI.. the part I'm not sure I understand is that the Paris accord is just a carbon reduction goal. It doesn't specify how that reduction is achieved. My understanding is that it's just a self selected goal for reduction (the number isn't even forced on us, we choose it)... hell theres no penalty for failure..

With that in mind, why wouldn't investment in green energy R&D by a country or group of countries help achieve that goal? If it has a higher ROI then why would it have to be mutually exclusive?
MACS Offline
#87 Posted:
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,779
I'm not sure where it's 'mutually exclusive'.
victor809 Offline
#88 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
He says it was good to pull put of the Paris accord and wants to do this instead.

Why?

Why wouldn't he have just suggested doing that as a way of meeting the goals of the Paris accord.
opelmanta1900 Offline
#89 Posted:
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
Cuz **** the french.... freedom accord!
frankj1 Offline
#90 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
victor809 wrote:
He says it was good to pull put of the Paris accord and wants to do this instead.

Why?

Why wouldn't he have just suggested doing that as a way of meeting the goals of the Paris accord.

cuz no one knows what the Paris Thingy really says, but if Obama liked it, it's gotta go.
DrafterX Offline
#91 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,551
They shoulda all agreed to look for CROS.... Mellow
MACS Offline
#92 Posted:
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,779
frankj1 wrote:
cuz no one knows what the Paris Thingy really says, but if Obama liked it, it's gotta go.


Personally I'm still not sold on us being able to control the climate at all, so you'll pardon me if I don't want to waste trillions trying.
frankj1 Offline
#93 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
MACS wrote:
Personally I'm still not sold on us being able to control the climate at all, so you'll pardon me if I don't want to waste trillions trying.

not sure the accord makes us do that
deadeyedick Offline
#94 Posted:
Joined: 03-13-2003
Posts: 17,089
All we really need to do is get VW involved in the measurement of emissions. Makes about as much sense as the Paris Accords and a lot cheaper.

According th Bill McKibben we are already screwed and it will take thousands of years to rectify.
bgz Offline
#95 Posted:
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
Up until now (and still now)... I wasn't sure what to think about Trump pulling out of Paris (lol had to).

Anyway, I found this link that was written last year some time:

http://www.heritage.org/testimony/paris-climate-promise-bad-deal-america

Well written paper, valid points from a legal stand point, and I'm fairly certain that Trump made the right call.

As it sat, it was pretty much our job to fund this shindig, where I'm not convinced that the money sent would be going anywhere except hard core liberal organizations where the actual money gets buried in operating costs and never reaches it's intended target.

I'm also of the opinion that I've stated plenty of times that the economy will work itself out as alternative energy sources become more profitable than traditional sources.

Also, from my understanding, and this is a big one... WE"RE STILL IN A FKING ICE AGE, THE PLANET IS HISTORICALLY A VERY WARM PLACE.

Because of that, temperatures are going to rise no matter what, because that's what happens when you are coming out of an ice age.

Anyway, that's all I got.
MACS Offline
#96 Posted:
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,779
bgz wrote:
I'm also of the opinion that I've stated plenty of times that the economy will work itself out as alternative energy sources become more profitable than traditional sources.


That is basically what Bjorn Lomborg of the Copenhagen Consensus Center is saying. Put more effort into R&D of alternatives, and as soon as they become cheaper... BAM, we'll be on it like white on rice.
bgz Offline
#97 Posted:
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
MACS wrote:
That is basically what Bjorn Lomborg of the Copenhagen Consensus Center is saying. Put more effort into R&D of alternatives, and as soon as they become cheaper... BAM, we'll be on it like white on rice.


It won't matter though, because we're still coming out of an ice age and the planet will still get warmer.
DrafterX Offline
#98 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,551
Somewhere in this thread I mentioned the 'Cool It'
movie...

http://www.cigarbid.com/...and-The-Paris-Agreement

Same guy Macs is talking about.. movie is only like 1 Hr 15 min... Mellow
MACS Offline
#99 Posted:
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,779
bgz wrote:
It won't matter though, because we're still coming out of an ice age and the planet will still get warmer.


Or worse... a solar flare fires off in our direction and incinerates the planet.
bgz Offline
#100 Posted:
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
^ya... not much we can do about that one.
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