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Last post 2 months ago by rfenst. 59 replies replies.
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Donald Trump is found liable for fraud in New York civil case
JGKAMIN Offline
#51 Posted:
Joined: 05-08-2011
Posts: 1,404
HockeyDad wrote:
The lesson should be learned that civil asset forfeiture will be used against the political opposition. It would be best to not oppose.

I look forward to four more years of President Biden building back better. I need to get one of those hats.

Yup, every other president left office much wealthier than when they were elected, but the Donald won’t. All a part of the “Build, Back, Better” campaign run by the guy who said he’d unify the country.
rfenst Offline
#52 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,345
Elon Musk and Donald Trump Cases Imperil the Rule of Law
American prosperity rests on equal justice. Delaware and New York judges have called it into question.


Jeb Bush and Joe Lonsdale/WSJ


The U.S. is the business capital of the world in large part because of its robust constitutional system and impartial judiciary. But two unprecedented legal decisions, against Donald Trump in New York and Elon Musk in Delaware, call that into question. In both cases, judges have ordered massive punitive judgments on behalf of dubious or nonexistent “victims.”

Every American has a right to be critical of Mr. Trump’s politics—one of us ran against him in 2016—or Mr. Musk’s public persona. But equality before the law is precious, and these rulings represent a crisis not only for the soundness of our courts, but for the business environment that has allowed the U.S. to prosper. If these rulings stand, the damage could cascade through the economy, creating fear of arbitrary enforcement against entrepreneurs who seek public office or raise their voices as citizens in a way that politicians dislike.

In Delaware, Chancellor Kathaleen McCormick of the Court of Chancery ordered the unwinding of five years of Mr. Musk’s incentive-based compensation at Tesla, which had been approved by 80% of the company’s shareholders. The plaintiff, Richard Tornetta, held nine shares in 2018—worth about $200 then and $2,000 today, after the execution of the compensation plan that supposedly injured him.

Mr. Musk’s compensation plan awarded him stock bonuses tied to earnings and stock-value benchmarks, which many critics thought he could never meet. When he did, he received $56 billion, enriching shareholders like Mr. Tornetta along the way. Judge McCormick has yet to say how she wants the pay package unwound, but Mr. Tornetta’s lawyers could petition her for a percentage of the $56 billion as a fee for having succeeded in their challenge. Mr. Musk’s performance at Tesla enriched all shareholders, but Judge McCormick’s ruling may primarily enrich Delaware trial lawyers.

In New York, Judge Arthur Engoron ordered Mr. Trump to pay more than $350 million in a civil fraud judgment for inflating the value of his real-estate holdings. That case was brought by Attorney General Letitia James, who ran for office in 2018 on a promise to target the man she called “an illegitimate president.”

The unusual New York law Ms. James used to investigate and sue Mr. Trump didn’t require her to prove that he had intended to defraud anyone, or even that anyone lost money. The Associated Press found that of the 12 cases brought under that law since its adoption in 1956 in which significant penalties were imposed, the case against Mr. Trump was the only instance without an alleged victim or financial loss. Bankers from Deutsche Bank, which lent money to Mr. Trump, testified that they were satisfied with having done so, given they were paid back on time and with interest. They also testified that they were uncertain whether the alleged exaggerations would have affected the terms of the loans to Mr. Trump—a key part of Ms. James’s case. Since there were no victims, the state will collect the damages.

New York and Delaware have played an outsize role in business in the U.S. Many major companies are incorporated in Delaware owing to the state’s body of corporate legal precedents; and a significant number of banks operate in New York, the world financial capital. The appellate courts in those states now have a chance to review these dangerous judicial rulings and try to stop further damage to the reputations of their respective judiciaries.

If they don’t, blue-state politicians may have the satisfaction of “sticking it” to Messrs. Trump and Musk, but the loss to those states will be significant. The damage to the legal fabric of the country will be even worse. A dispassionate justice system is at the heart of American exceptionalism, and the country will be poorer if we lose it.




Mr. Bush served as governor of Florida, 1999-2007. Mr. Lonsdale is a founder of Palantir and managing partner of 8VC.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#53 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,489
This could very well be the impetus for Wall Street to finally call it a day and move to Miami.

Other businesses will follow.
MACS Offline
#54 Posted:
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,809
Remington is pulling chocks and moving to Georgia.
Stogie1020 Offline
#55 Posted:
Joined: 12-19-2019
Posts: 5,358
rfenst wrote:
The Associated Press found that of the 12 cases brought under that law since its adoption in 1956 in which significant penalties were imposed, the case against Mr. Trump was the only instance without an alleged victim or financial loss.

Nothing to see here, move along...
MACS Offline
#56 Posted:
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,809
Stogie1020 wrote:
Nothing to see here, move along...


That's exactly what some of us have been saying... and the part where it says "since there were no victims, the State will collect the damages" tells you ALL you need to know.
RayR Offline
#57 Posted:
Joined: 07-20-2020
Posts: 8,912
MACS wrote:
That's exactly what some of us have been saying... and the part where it says "since there were no victims, the State will collect the damages" tells you ALL you need to know.



Well...the state must be the victim so they deserve to get all the money they can seize by force.Eh?
That's the way it works in a bananas republic.
JGKAMIN Offline
#58 Posted:
Joined: 05-08-2011
Posts: 1,404
RayR wrote:
Well...the state must be the victim so they deserve to get all the money they can seize by force.Eh?
That's the way it works in a bananas republic.

Looks like NY just found the funding to cover the exorbitant hotel and room service costs as well as free debit card$ for the illegals they’ve been accommodating. Scary to think some people accept these cases as fair and/or just; if throwing one obscure BS case after the next at somebody isn’t enough to bury them in legal fees defending themself, they’ll just come up with judgments like this to drain it even quicker.
rfenst Offline
#59 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,345
Yes, it is uncommon for there to be illegal conduct without a person or entity being harmed, but that is what the law is. Indisputably.

And, many, many convictions do not require proof of actual damages- such as certain types of defamation (civil law) and all attempted crimes (criminal law). For example: attempted murder where one person shoots at another and misses. No victim...

Devils Advocate: What about **how** you are not allowed to do business in the sole business/financial capital of the world and whether there is strong public policy for the law? That is the real issue to grapple with here.
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