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Last post 21 years ago by Tobasco. 121 replies replies.
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what does this symbolize to you??
xaigoxx Offline
#51 Posted:
Joined: 01-01-2000
Posts: 122
first of all.. robby, i never called people from the south racists. I said that many people see this flag as a symbol or southern pride and etc, not racism. HOwever, many use this flag for a symbol of racism as well.

THis flag means different things to different people. I live in California, and when I see this flag here, I dont see a bunch of southern pride folks walking around being friendly. WHen I see this flag here, I see a bunch of racist bastards passing out flyers and displaying public racism. So this flag has dual purpose. I never said freedom of speech is bad or wrong. I said express and use it responsibly.
Robby Offline
#52 Posted:
Joined: 10-30-2002
Posts: 5,067
Are you on the couch yet? Do you find the body condem restrictive?
E-Chick Offline
#53 Posted:
Joined: 06-15-2002
Posts: 4,877
Is it a COTTON flag?

Maybe we should ban cotton?

Cotton is a 'bad' symbol.

Oh, and do you use Aunt Jemima Syrup?...bad, so bad!

Isn't it a state flag? I'm not really sure, but if so, as such, it should be flown on any and all state/fed buildings of that state. If it isn't, well then people that wish to fly it with pride should certainly do so.

Geez, I've got to look at a large Canadian flag proudly flying across the street displayed on a neighbor's house everyday. Not that I have anything personally against Cananda, but I'd much prefer to see the good ol' Stars and Bars being flown over there. What can I do...it's a right, right?

Some people use the symbol of the Christian cross to suit their own issues or beliefs, i.e., upside down...I don't get all up in arms seeing it used in disgrace...some people just won't change their views to suit MY needs!

Imagine that...
xaigoxx Offline
#54 Posted:
Joined: 01-01-2000
Posts: 122
riight.. well the canada flag isnt offensive. doesnt represent hate. No the confederate flag is not a state flag. So if your neighbor had a flag representing Al Qaeda... then it would be ok? Because of his right? This isnt abusing his right? What if the flag had a picture with Twin towers being stuck by 2 planes? That would be ok too?

Robby, walk through Harlem or Compton, whichever is closer, with a nice confederate flag. See what happens. See what the flag means to them. Also, you can feel racism and hate being aimed at you. Not everyone will respond to your display, but i guarantee a nice group of people will approach you and show you how they feel.
ducati996 Offline
#55 Posted:
Joined: 01-02-2000
Posts: 3,477
Isn't it illegal to fly any flag over the Stars and Stripes? I know it is not proper. I thought the American flag had to be flown higher than any other flag being displayed with it. E-chick, go tell on your Canadian friends and have them arrested..lol.
Robby Offline
#56 Posted:
Joined: 10-30-2002
Posts: 5,067
xaigoxx, and there you would be, grinning from ear to ear, thinking to yourself, look at that extremist, he's getting beat to hell, just like he deserves. Doesn't that make YOU an extremist? Or at the very least, a hypocrite? Sounds like this is a forest for the trees position you're taking. I beat you favor the death penalty for anyone who attempts suicide too…

While we're at it, was it Tipper who wanted to censor music lyrics? Hey, there's plenty of things I find objectionable on TV, let's have a political correctness panel to review anything and every thing that anyone anywhere could find objectionable and deal with it before they get a chance to offend anyone. Can you say, USSR?

BTW, you never told me if that body condom was restrictive or not? Just wondering.
Tobasco Offline
#57 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2003
Posts: 2,809

E, if someone were to fly some other flag, of another country accross from me, I might have to exersize my rights too.

I might be tempted to go buy a Canadian flag, pour gasoline on it and torch it for my Canadian neighbors to see!

Then tell them to get the $%&*$ out of this country if you love Canada so much!

Mag
Spiny Norman Offline
#58 Posted:
Joined: 09-04-2002
Posts: 899
"While we're at it, was it Tipper who wanted to censor music lyrics?"

Yes, and she wasn't alone!

PMRC’s Formation

In April 1985, along with three other "well-connected Washington
wives and mothers" Tipper founded the PMRC. Almost overnight
the group "emerged as rock’s most potent critics."

"This summer they picked up welcome leadership
from Tipper Gore, 36, Pam Howar, 43, and Susan
Baker, 48, three well-connected Washington
wives and mothers. Gore is a Virginia-bred mother
of four. Howar, a former ad agency owner, is the wife
of Washington real estate developer Raymond
Howar. Baker, a devout Christian who favors classical
and country & Western music, is the wife of Treasury
Secretary James Baker, formerly the White House
Chief of Staff.

Fortunatly, we had the very liberal Frank Zappa to put them in their place!
usahog Offline
#59 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
"Don't you go where the Eskimo's go, and don't you eat that Yellow Snow"

"Why Does it Hurt when I P"

Frankie!!!!!! and the younger Moonchild!!!!

Hog
Robby Offline
#60 Posted:
Joined: 10-30-2002
Posts: 5,067
"So I tugged on her hair, got her legs in the air and I asked her if she had any cooties in there.

Whattya mean cooties, no cooties on me!

She was bunz up nealin (Buns up)
I was wheelin and dealin
She surrendered to the feelin
and started in a squealin"
Iceburg_30 Offline
#61 Posted:
Joined: 08-06-2002
Posts: 1
The Battle Flag is a symbol of culture. It is not about the KKK, it is not about racial hatred, it is not about being or not being an American.

It is about a culture, in which in that current time believed in something and stood by it. The Battle flag was adopted as the Confederate Flag when the southern states succeded from the Union. The Civil War was not fought over slavery it was over capitalism and industry.

The South, while out machined, out manned, and out industrialized still stood for what they believed in and fought for their beliefs. The Battle Flag is a symbol of their belief and is a part of Southern Culture. The Battle Flag deserves to be recongized and respected as such.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#62 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,647
Battle flag? Hell, I thought that their battle flag was a big solid white flag!


Har-dee-har-har!
Charlie Offline
#63 Posted:
Joined: 06-16-2002
Posts: 39,751
Mad Vibe,

You have not studied the history of the Civil War very well, or you would not have made the statement about White Flag and the CSA!

Charlie

PS Yes, I am happy the North won the War, and proud of the Stars and Stripes, but the CSA did not readily surrender!
E-Chick Offline
#64 Posted:
Joined: 06-15-2002
Posts: 4,877
Xaigoxx,

First of all, my neighbor is NOT flying the Canadian flag OVER the US flag...he's just flying the Canadian one...

Secondly, it is NOT offending me, although it may be very offensive in some ways to some people (who are you to judge if only 'hatred' is a valid reason), I'd personally prefer to see the US flag flown...

Thirdly, if someone, somewhere in the US wants to display a flag or flag-like banner that doesn't suit me, but is within the law, who am I to say...I've seen pics of aborted fetuses plastered all over the side of a van...does it offend me that abortions exist? Yes. Does it offend me that I have to see a graphic picture of bloodied, murdered body displayed so prominently in the public view? Yes. Does it offend me that my children (who were both under 11 years old at the time that we saw this display) had to be enlightened on the subject (it was spelled out for them on the posters)? Yes.

But guess what my friend, i's about freedom of speech.

Lastly, something being 'ok' vs something being a 'right' is two completely different things...it's not 'ok' for me to beat the crap outta my kids, but it is my 'right' to discipline them. It's not 'ok' to stiff a food server on a tip, but it's my 'right' to show or not show appreciation for services rendered. It's not 'ok' to kill a human being intentionally, but it's my 'right' to defend myself and to use deadly force if necessary.

There are many instances that can be set as an example, however important or miniscule they may seem...the point is, this symbol is just that. A symbol. Translate it as you will.

And btw, thank you for educating me on whether or not it is a state flag. With my family's history, I should know better...


chibacity Offline
#65 Posted:
Joined: 04-22-2002
Posts: 17
Well, it symbolizes the battle flag of the Confederate States of America, because that's what it is. For all you people attempting to make an example with an Al Qaeda flag, think about this:

What if Al Qaeda decided to take the Stars and Stripes as their flag? They started waiving it around on badly shot videos shown on that Al-Jazeera (sp?) muslim news station. They started wearing it on their shirts, etc. etc. And people around the world began to think that the Stars and Stripes now represented terrorism and Al Qaeda. Would you then abandon the Stars and Stripes because of what other people thought? Or would you still display it proudly, being confident in it's true meaning to you?

I hope it's the latter. Don't be so quick to judge someone displaying the battle flag of the Confederacy as a hate-monger or KKK loon. It is quite possible that they are a proud Southerner who couldn't give a toss about the KKK.
usahog Offline
#66 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
Thank You chibacity , and welcome aboard... your thoughts and statments here could not be more True!!!

it is the USA and it is the freedom of a free nation...
I would not care what flag is being Flown at my Neighbors house... even if it were an Al Quida Flag, but what I would care about is someone putting a match to my American Flag... whether it be on my front porch or in a Demonstration... or even holding the United States Flag Upside down in a manner of Protest.. I would have to exercise my Rights... and let them know that is Illegal to do so.. according to the Rights Established to the U.S. Flag!!! Some people need to think before they Act...

Hog
Robby Offline
#67 Posted:
Joined: 10-30-2002
Posts: 5,067
so I guess this means a body condom is out of the question?
xaigoxx Offline
#68 Posted:
Joined: 01-01-2000
Posts: 122
first of all.. im not for censorship, i love my freedom of speech, i love this country and what it stands for, and I am NOT quick to judge a person who displays a confederate flag.

But since we're talking about other things now, I'll talk about them to. With what everyone was saying about how offensive things should be allowed because of our first amendment. However, like I said before, should this amendment be allowed to be abused? The right to bear arms is another constitutional right... however we are NOT allowed to purchase assault rifles and such because of the danger that it brings into homes. Most of the guns that we as AMERICANS are allowed to purchase are small side arms and hunting guns. however, this amendment was placed in our Constitution, not for the ownership of guns to hunt deer, but to defend ourselves and our homes from other PEOPLE. However, because of the dangers of gun ownership, this amendment has been modified several times.

In my opinion, one of the biggest problems is showing lack of responsibility. I would NEVEr want anyone to take away my freedom of speech. But... should we allow kiddie porn on the internet? what about those anarchist websites teaching young kids to make bombs and weapons? We say, "these things are offensive yet they are included in our rights". Shouldnt this right also be modified like our right to bear arms? Our problem is, we defend our rights until something bad happens. Some guy molests a young minor, high school students go on a shooting rampage all over the US, or an African American is tied to a truck in texas until he is decapitated... Now what? Who blames who? It couldnt be the kiddie porn on the net, the anarchist websites or hate groups, right? They are law biding citizens.... We dont live in a perfect world, and the world to most people has more gray than black and white... however, somethings are just obviously wrong and should be stopped.
xrundog Offline
#69 Posted:
Joined: 01-17-2002
Posts: 2,212
Yeah, I'm for free speech. Ya want to fly that flag? Go ahead. But it's pretty damn thoughtless toward your African American neighbors. Slavery was a central issue of the civil war. It was the basis of the souths economy. There were other issues. All connected in one way or another with slavery. State's rights? Yeah, the right of a state to determine if it would be pro slave or not. The south was afraid that new states would be made non slave. This would give the antislavery folks a majority in congress. It was just a matter of time before slavery was abolished. The south had too big an investment and too much to lose. To be African American and be faced with that flag flying from a State Capitol might make one think that if ones neighbors had their way, you might be chopping cotton today. I can't control what you hang on your house. And I don't want to. But any Government entity which receives funds from, and allies itself with the Federal Government, should not be flying that flag. Because in a way it suggests that yes, the south lost the war but has not given up the fight. The largest concentration of African Americans outside the urban centers still live in the south. I think they deserve not to be reminded daily of what it represents to them.
Robby Offline
#70 Posted:
Joined: 10-30-2002
Posts: 5,067
heh, xaigoxx "I own an assault rifle" :-) It’s an FN FAL, 308, 20 round clip and it is one mean piece of hardware. Can you tell me how many times the second amendment has been modified? I don't recall any constitutional amendments affecting my "Right" to keep and arm bears? What you’re referring to is the Gun Control lobby enacting specific local legislation ostensibly for the safety of their citizens. Guess what, DC has the most restrictive gun laws in the country, care to guess who has one of the highest murder rates?

Qstn, who should be allowed to decide if I'm abusing my right to free speech? Child porno is against the law because it's “abusing children”, how does that equate to a flag that some support and others reject? Can you say "specious?" You want your argument to be efficacious, but instead it's just defecacious...

Richard Gere stood up at a 9/11 commemoration dinner and said “Give peace a chance”. He was boo’ed off the stage. I would have boo’ed too. But I wouldn’t prevent him from voicing his opinion just because it offends me. He was speaking to people who lost family members and telling them they should not seek justice by pursuing those who supported the attack! An officer and a genitalmen indeed…

"anarchist websites"? They're legal my friend, you're a censor... Plain and simple.

You're ranting about racists dragging people behind trucks, but wasn't the mass murder in DC (Malvo?) "African American?" Didn't he kill in cold blood other "African Americans"? Why do you think he did that? Probably the confederate battle flag, right? Surely if we outlawed it, those pinheads wouldn’t have murdered that poor man in Texas, and Malvo wouldn’t have killed his own kind, just white people. What flag would have made him do that? Should we outlaw that one too?

I fear people like you. Honestly I do. You think your views are helpful, but by attempting to "control" what is allowable by virtue of who it offends, you're no different than the Taliban forcing women to wear berkas (sp) because OMG!! YOU WOULDN'T WANT TO SEE A WOMANS FACE IN PUBLIC!! THAT WOULD BE LUDE!! Well guess what dude, they think "JUST like you". They're saving all of their neighbors from the trauma of seeing a woman’s face in public. Freedom is free man! That means, sometimes people are offended! Guess what, if you don't like something, you don't have do look at it. Turn the channel, move, put your fingers in your ears and go LELELALALOLO like Jim Carey in Dumb and dumber, look away, do SOMETHING! Just don't try to restrict other's freedoms. Despite how you try to disguise it, this is EXACTLY what you are proposing...
xaigoxx Offline
#71 Posted:
Joined: 01-01-2000
Posts: 122
Wow, this is why every country hates us. Hates the US, hates Americans, and hates people like you. We're all angry about the 9/11 attacks yet we still bully, threaten, blackmail, and BS other countries because we are the world's only superpower. America has proud citizens and then the cocky ones that make people hate us... and thats you. Every country has their own customs and way of living... so respect that.

Fear me? I fear you. I fear those that think gun control is bad and responsibility is wrong. I fear you, because of your ignorance and arrogance for something you don't quite understand. The black man was killed by white hate groups in Texas... and yes they wouldve done it anyway. But... if we didnt allow these groups to make websites showing others who, WOULD NEVER HAVE HAD THE CHANCE TO HEAR THIS MESSAGE, methods of making weapons and hating others based on ignorance and stupidity. Child Porn is against the law in the US, however, those websites can be based in other countries and view in this country. NOT ONLY THAT, kidde pictures before the 1990's are considered vintage and allowed to be "collected".

I fear you because you don't believe that prevention is important and that only punishment and action after the fact is important. Gun Control? slowly eliminate more dangerous guns from the public and in several years, it will be much better. Hate? Limit their influence and it will NOT reach the weak minded and young across the world and nation. I fear arrogant people like you who think this country is invincible.
xaigoxx Offline
#72 Posted:
Joined: 01-01-2000
Posts: 122
True freedom is anarchy robby. We live in a gov't controlled country. Can you go murder and rape someone? NO.. because you dont have the freedom to. We have freedom yes, but its the freedom our gov't gives us.

BTW, the right to bear arms was not modified officially, but through laws it was modified. This style of modification as been used for several admenments in our Constitution.
Robby Offline
#73 Posted:
Joined: 10-30-2002
Posts: 5,067
You're ignorance speaks volumes... I need nothing more than to quote you, "but its the freedom our gov't gives us." Anyone who thinks freedom comes from the government obviously has no knowledge of the constitution or what this country stands for. That may be how they do things where you're from... And oh, btw, yes, by all means, fear me and other freedom loving americans like me.
jdrabinski Offline
#74 Posted:
Joined: 08-16-2002
Posts: 794
I've spent a lot of time in the South, love a lot of things about the South, but this flag thing is a real embarrassment. What defenders of the flag don't seem to get (or maybe have ambivalent feelings about) is that the flag was flown in defense of slavery. SLAVERY. How could you possibly defend a flag that represented states defending that right?

If you were african-american, would you trust someone with a confederate flag on their home, body, or car? Don't lie. Of course you wouldn't. If you would, you'd be a fool.

The other 'myth' surrounding the confederate flag is that it had always stood for 'southern pride' (white southern pride only, by the way...there are A LOT of black people in the south, so it isn't really southern pride if it doesn't also represent them). The flag had disappeared from public consciousness, but was rehabilitated as a symbol of resistance to the civil rights movement. Read this, noting the fact that it only appeared in S. Carolina in 1962:

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/extra/features/jan-june00/flag.html

Flying or displaying that flag links you to two disgusting moments of our nation's history: slavery and segregation. Who would want to find themselves connected to that? Pull your head out of the sand.

John
usahog Offline
#75 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
John:(The other 'myth' surrounding the confederate flag is that it had always stood for 'southern pride' (white southern pride only, by the way...there are A LOT of black people in the south, so it isn't really southern pride if it doesn't also represent them)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A18621-2003Feb16.html
I Beg to Differ... You being a Professor even with that 8.0 grade average and this is how you view the history of this Nation?
Gen Lee himself when he surrendered his men and himself to the North Said, I Have Fought against the people of the North because I believed they were seeking to wrest from the south its dearest rights. bitter or vindictive feelings, And I have never seen the day when I did not pray for them. Robert E. Lee

John, I will show you the Fact of why the Civil War Happened... Slavery was a mild Issue , while I gather the Fact to post to you... you can read the Above Link I posted here... so you can see for your Own Eye's a couple of modern day Proud Black Men in Confederate Uniforms... a Heritage they say there passed down from there Family Generation of fighting for the South...
and I'm still waiting for a reply on your "God and War" thread your so proud of....

Hog
usahog Offline
#76 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
NAACP ...... SpiFFffffffffff

http://www.snopes.com/disney/films/sots.htm

Jessy Jackson LMAO!!!!!!

Hog
usahog Offline
#77 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
Civil War: Causes and Results


"Of the American Civil War it may safely be asserted that there was a single cause, slavery," wrote historian James Ford Rhodes in 1913. Although historians today would not put it quite so starkly, Rhodes''s basic point remains valid.

In the decades since 1913 various schools of historiography have advanced other interpretations of the war''s causes. The progressive historians emphasized the widening economic gulf between the North and South. Cultural and social historians stressed the contrast between the civilizations and values of the two regions. But revisionist historians denied the existence of any fundamental economic or social conflicts. They pointed instead to self-serving politicians who created and then exploited the false issue of slavery''s expansion into new territories to whip up sectional passions and get themselves elected to office.

Few historians today subscribe to either the progressive or the revisionist interpretation in unalloyed form. To be sure, conflicts of interest occurred between the agricultural South and the industrializing North. But issues like tariffs, banks, and land grants divided parties and interest groups more than they did North and South. The South in the 1840s and 1850s had its advocates of industrialization and protective tariffs, just as the North had its millions of farmers and its low-tariff, antibank Democratic majority in many states. The Civil War was not fought over the issue of tariff or of industrialization or of land grants. Nor was it a consequence of false issues invented by demagogues. It was fought over profound, intractable problems that Americans on both sides believed went to the heart of their society and its future.

In this sense the "two civilizations" thesis comes closest to the mark. As a lawyer in Savannah, Georgia, expressed it in 1860, "in this country have arisen two races [i.e., Northerners and Southerners] which, although claiming a common parentage, have been so entirely separated by climate, by morals, by religion, and by estimates so totally opposite to all that constitutes honor, truth, and manliness, that they cannot longer exist under the same government." What lay at the root of this separation? Slavery. It was the sole institution not shared by North and South. The peculiar institution defined the South. "On the subject of slavery," declared the Charleston Mercury in 1858, "the North and South ... are not only two Peoples, but they are rival, hostile Peoples."

Two of the North''s foremost political leaders echoed this point in the same year. Slavery and freedom, said Senator William H. Seward of New York, are "more than incongruous - they are incompatible." The collision between them "is an irrepressible conflict between opposing and enduring forces, and it means that the United States must and will, sooner or later, become either entirely a slaveholding nation, or entirely a free-labor nation." Abraham Lincoln, in a famous speech, declared that "]a house divided against itself cannot stand.[ I believe this government cannot endure, permanently half slave and half free."

But why could it not so endure? After all, in 1858 it had done so for seventy years. To be sure, slavery had been a source of contention at the Constitutional Convention, at the time of Missouri''s admission into the Union in 1821, in the debates between abolitionists and slavery''s defenders especially in the 1830s, at the time of Texas''s admission as a state in 1845 and the subsequent war with Mexico, and on numerous other occasions. But compromises palliated these conflicts; the Republic endured. What made the rhetoric of 1858 different? What split the Republic in 1861? The answer lies mainly in the schism generated by the expansion of slavery.

The Missouri Compromise of 1820 had seemed to settle this matter by dividing the territory acquired in the Louisiana Purchase between slavery and freedom at the latitude of 36°30 (with Missouri as a slave-state exception north of that line). But the conquest from Mexico of vast new regions in the Southwest following the annexation of Texas as a slave state reopened the question in 1846. With the support of nearly all Northern congressmen, the House of Representatives passed over unanimous Southern opposition the Wilmot Proviso stating that slavery should be excluded from all territory acquired by the Mexican War. Southern strength in the Senate was sufficient to defeat the proviso there. And that was the point. With the Union comprising fifteen free states and fifteen slave states in 1848, the South could block in the Senate any measures threatening slavery. But if only free states were to be admitted in the future, the South would eventually become a helpless minority in all branches of government. Slavery would be doomed by Northern hostility.

What explained the growing Northern hostility to slavery? Since 1831 the militant phase of the abolitionist movement had crusaded against bondage as unchristian, immoral, and a violation of the republican principle of equality on which the nation had been founded. The fact that this land of liberty had become the world''s largest slaveholding nation seemed a shameful anomaly to an increasing number of Northerners. "The monstrous injustice of slavery," said Lincoln in 1854, "deprives our republican example of its just influence in the world - enables the enemies of free institutions, with plausibility, to taunt us as hypocrites." Slavery degraded not only the slaves, argued Northerners opposed to its expansion, by demeaning the dignity of labor and dragging down the wages of all workers; it also degraded free people who owned no slaves. If slavery goes into the territories, declared abolitionists, "the free labor of all the states will not.... If the free labor of the states goes there, the slave labor of the southern states will not, and in a few years the country will teem with an active and energetic population." The contest over expansion of slavery into the territories thus became a contest over the future of America, for these territories held the balance of power between slavery and freedom.

The South accepted the gauntlet flung down by the Free-Soil movement. Proslavery advocates countered that the bondage of blacks was the basis of liberty for whites. Slavery elevated all whites to an equality of status and dignity by confining menial labor and caste subordination to blacks. "If slaves are freed," said Southerners, whites "will become menials. We will lose every right and liberty which belongs to the name of freemen." The fear that emancipation would degrade whites to the level of black slaves explains why most of the Southern whites who owned no slaves (70 percent of all whites) supported the institution. They agreed with slave owners that slavery must be allowed in the territories, for such expansion might increase their own chances of acquiring slaves.

This question became the dominant political issue of the 1850s. Southerners led several filibustering expeditions into Cuba, Mexico, and Nicaragua to try to gain control of these regions in order to annex them to the United States as slave states. Southern Democrats used their domination of the party, which in turn controlled the federal government during most of the decade, to make annexation of Cuba a party policy (but Spain refused to sell its colony). Southern Democrats and their Northern allies passed the Kansas-Nebraska Act in 1854, which repealed the Missouri Compromise''s restriction on slavery north of 36°30 in Louisiana Purchase territories. The outraged Northern response led to the founding of the Republican party as a coalition of Free-Soilers, Northern Whigs, and those Northern Democrats who were fed up with Southern domination of their party. Tensions were exacerbated in 1857 when the Southern-dominated Supreme Court handed down its Dred Scott decision, which declared slavery legal in all territories. During the remainder of the decade, the territory of Kansas echoed with the gunfire of strife between pro- and antislavery settlers. Out of the Kansas conflict came John Brown with his vision of a holy war to free the slaves, which culminated with his attack on Harpers Ferry, Virginia, in 1859.

These events were flash points in the increasing polarization of North and South over slavery. When Lincoln won the presidential election in 1860 without winning a single electoral vote and with scarcely any popular votes in the slave states, Southerners knew they had lost control of the government. A Northern antislavery party would dominate the future. Slavery was doomed if the South remained in the Union. So seven slave states seceded (followed by four more after the firing on Fort Sumter) and formed the Confederate States of America.

Still, that did not inevitably mean war. If the new Lincoln administration and the Northern people had been willing to accept secession, the two halves of the former United States might have coexisted in an uneasy peace. But most Northerners were not willing to tolerate the dismemberment of the United States. This would create a fatal precedent whereby "any minority [would] have the right to break up the Government at pleasure," declared Northern newspapers and political leaders. The government would become "a rope of sand" and "our thirty-three States may resolve themselves into as many petty, jarring, and hostile republics.... Our example for more than eighty years would not only be lost, but it would be quoted as a conclusive proof that man is unfit for self-government."

Lincoln intended to maintain the federal garrison at Fort Sumter in Charleston Bay as a symbol of national sovereignty in the Confederate states, in the hope that a reaction toward Unionism in those states would eventually bring them back. To forestall this happening, the Confederate army attacked Fort Sumter on April 12, 1861. This was the spark that ignited four years of war in which at least 620,000 American soldiers lost their lives - nearly as many as in all the other wars this country has fought combined. The destruction wrought in the South by the Civil War was devastating. It killed one-quarter of the Confederacy''s white men of military age and destroyed two-fifths of Southern livestock, half of the farm machinery and a similar proportion of factories and railroads, and two-thirds of Southern wealth. The Civil War was the great trauma and tragedy of American history.

But it was also a great triumph of nationalism and freedom. The war resolved the two fundamental problems left unresolved by the Revolution of 1776, problems that had preoccupied the country for four score and nine years down to 1865. The first was the question whether this fragile republic would survive in a world of monarchs and emperors and dictators or would follow the example of most republics through history (including many in the nineteenth century) and collapse into tyranny or fragment in a dreary succession of revolutions and civil wars. Northern victory in the Civil War settled that question: the United States would survive as a single nation with a republican form of government. Since 1865 no state or region has tried to secede. The second problem left unresolved by the Revolution was slavery, which had divided the country from the beginning. The Civil War abolished the institution and freed 4 million slaves. What still remained unresolved in 1865 were the meaning and dimensions of that freedom - issues that continue to concern Americans today.

Slavery was the Final Straw to lead to the secession and the Beginning of the Civil War...

http://www.historychannel.com/cgi-bin/frameit2.cgi?p=%2Fperl%2Fsearch.pl&word=Civil+War&x=19&y=10

Hog

btw this Flag is a symbol of History of the United States and the People who fought for the Freedoms there of.. either North Or South...
Next we will be digging up Arlington Cemetary because that was Gen. Lee's Homeplace and the NAACP feel's it isn't proper to keep it a monument because it's infringing on somebody's rights....
Let History Remain as just that!!!!!
there is no way to Place Political Correctness to the events of History that took Place at that time...
"In otherwords Changing events to suit the times... Not Going to Happen!!!!!

Hog
jdrabinski Offline
#78 Posted:
Joined: 08-16-2002
Posts: 794
'the south's dearest rights'...

read: the right to own slaves.

end of story.

As for african-americans fighting for the South. Two things: they were slaves and, well, they were slaves. I see that as a very, very sad thing, black people fighting to maintain the institution of slavery. How do you see it?

John

ps: hog, you aren't willing to do the box pass? I am disappointed. Thought you'd be down for some good will. Whatever.
usahog Offline
#79 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
See it? as in Modern day like the two Gentlemen in the article I posted? or if I was a Southern Plantation Owner in the days of there Grandfathers? Or I was sitting on the Battle Field right next to Gen Grant, And Seeing these Men in Confederate Uniform advancing towards Union Soldiers?

How do you mean John? Please Elaberate

Hog
southernsupreme Offline
#80 Posted:
Joined: 08-06-2006
Posts: 42
A group of individuals resisting an oppressive federal force h@ll bent on controlling/stealing the economic resources that the southern states had developed.

It was a foreshadowing of the current globalization that has put the average American worker out of $15-$25 per hour job to working 2 full time lower paying jobs.

Dont start with the slavery stuff..it happened all through out history, still goes on in many nations that our federal government gives favored nation trading status to.

where is the "diversity" for me?? Im MLK'd, Kwanza'd, Black history month'd, and affirmative actioned'd to death.

Give me a break!!!

If the stars and bars offend you.. get over it!!

I am offended all day long because I am a true minority , A conservative, white (european-american),who works full time and provides for his family with out government assistance, hetero sexual, Christian male.







jdrabinski Offline
#81 Posted:
Joined: 08-16-2002
Posts: 794
'don't start with the slavery stuff'...

I try to be intense, but polite. But this is over the top and I have to respond in kind. You are a moron. Let me repeat: you are a moron. A moronic moron. The 'slavery stuff' was the greatest tragedy in this nation's history and we should be saddened by its memory. Your nonchalance about it, and this bull**** about being mlk'd to death, etc., shows me that you are no doubt a racist. That was a pathetic post.

You are a minority? What could that possibly mean? Get over yourself. You probably complain that liberals whine, then I read this bull****. You are whining about being a minority, but just about everyone in the congress and the executive branch is EXACTLY that.

Go back to the 19th century. You're exactly the type keeping this country down.
xaigoxx Offline
#82 Posted:
Joined: 01-01-2000
Posts: 122
Exactly. How can you consider yourself a "minority"?
-----

Robby, get educated. You're a racist and you don't even know it. You're acting like I'm an American hating, censorship loving extremist. I love this country as much or if not more than you. I'd die and I live for this country. HOwever, you don't seem to grasp the basic concepts of prejudice and the thin line between "freedom" and anarchy. You don't seem to understand that the Constitution signed over 200+ years ago was practiced and interpreted differently than today. "Freedom" = what the Constitution and the laws of the land allow. Do you understand now, why you dont have the "freedom" to run around naked in your town beating senior citizens? Do you understand now, why you don't have the freedom to threaten anyone (even you do have freedom of speech and expression right?), or buy an AK-47 or even armor piercing bullets? It's because the laws of the land took away your freedom to. We, as Americans, do have more freedom than any other country. However, be realistic. You seem to be an idealistic living in a social bubble. I don't know if you live in a town with 27 people or in the country by yourself... but open your eyes. I'm not for censorship and taking away American Freedom. I'm for common sense. You are either an anarchist or a delusioned idealist racist.
Robby Offline
#83 Posted:
Joined: 10-30-2002
Posts: 5,067
xaigoxx and JDR,

There are those that know not, and know that they know not, they are to be educated.

There are those that know and know not that they know, they are to be enlightened.

There are those that know and know that they know, they are to be followed.

Finally, there are those that know not and know not that they know not. They are to be shunned. You fall in to this category...

Either you two are blithering idiots, or you're simply trying to get folks stired up. I'm hoping for your sake it's the later.

Did you ever see back to the future? Where the big guy is banging on McFly's head saying, "HELLO McFLY!!?? IS ANYBODY IN THERE???" Listen up. I don't fly the flag. And, btw, it doesn't offend me. However, other things do offend me (many things), but I don't run around in my poo poo undies like you whiners decrying the rights of others to, a) worship, b) speak, c) assemble, etc... (note this is the first amendment folks) based solely on the fact that I'm "offended".

Ever hear of the Islamic Nation? Lewis Faracon? And his minions? Preaching about white people, and Jews? Their hatred is not disguised (like your ignorance). I’m offended by MUCH of what they say. Do I think they should not be allowed to say it? No.

I'm offended by farting, so let's make it illegal in public? Xaigoxx, I am offended by you, should you be made illegal? (I may be persuaded to come off my doctrine on this one and agree YES) Why is it that just because someone espouses someone’s right to be offensive, you two morons immediately associate that individual with any possible negative implication associated with said offensive behavior? Are you really that stupid? No, come-on, you're just trying to stir things up right? Say is isn’t so, that you "Know not and know not that you know not..."

A final illustration of your stupidity, I’m a manager for a fortune 50 company. I’ve had much training about what is and is not discrimination, harassment, etc… It is indeed a fact that the ONLY group of people whom you may legally discriminate against is white men who are not disabled, not gay, etc… In other words, me.

P.S., do you still believe your freedom comes from the government? MORON!!
jdrabinski Offline
#84 Posted:
Joined: 08-16-2002
Posts: 794
No, Robby, I am not an idiot. And I am not just 'offended' out of stupidity. Let me tell you why.

I am white, my wife is black, and our soon-to-be kid (september!) will (obviously) be bi-racial. When I see the confederate flag flown, I see a number of things. The battle flag under which defense of slavery--the enslavement of my wife's ancestors--was fought. That isn't abstract to me.

Also, I see people flying the flag or having it on an emblem of some sort. Those people scare the **** out of me. When I am with my wife, do you blame me for fearing they'll hurl racial taunts at her, threaten me with violence? She has a PhD, teaches at a prestigious college, yet these people will threaten us and insult her. You know it is true. Don't tell me to grow thicker skin. That **** ain't my fault, and it ain't her fault. I refuse to be responsible for it. I see people who will stare at, insult, and threaten my child. Do you blame me? Or do you think that is a reasonable fear? If you were in an interracial relationship and had a biracial child, would you feel safe around people displaying the confederate flag?

I am not an idiot. You should take my points, and those of xaigoxx, more seriously.

I recall that xaigoxx said he is asian-american. You should listen to his experience. In relation to the flag, it is not an abstract argument for him. He lives a different relation to it, one that is unarguably under threat from it's display.

I gather from his remarks, and add my own from my marriage and soon-to-be child experience, that the flag actually feels threatening. And I don't think anybody would dispute the rationality of this fear.

John
Robby Offline
#85 Posted:
Joined: 10-30-2002
Posts: 5,067
John, congrats on your upcoming child. I understand your concerns, however that doesn't change the facts. Do you think that because you feel threatened, people should not be allowed to fly a confederate battle emblem? Applying the same logic, could I also request that members of Feracon's (sp) organization not be allowed to display their symbols because it makes me feel threatened? If so, who decides what’s offensive and therefore what should be stricken? Isn’t this the very same type of mob mentality that foments discrimination to begin with? I.e., more people obviously agreed that slavery was OK at some point in our history, did that make it right? If more people agree that some folks should not be allowed to display a flag, does that make it right?
Robby Offline
#86 Posted:
Joined: 10-30-2002
Posts: 5,067
Oh btw, I lived in Hawaii in the 70s. Whites were approximately 6% of the population and there was blatant discrimination and open hatred based solely on the fact that we were white. I had many friends who were beaten bloody for no other reason than their skin color. So please don't be fooled in to the false assumption that prejudice is only the domain of the white race. It happens across the board… It just seems that the only time it’s roundly condemned is when it’s white vs. anyone else. Please do not mistake this for support of bigotry, it is not. I’m just pointing out the dirty little secret of bigotry, lot’s of folks do it, but for some reason, whites are singled out for it. I never hear talk of whites being targets of racial hatred and I’ve personally experienced it.
jdrabinski Offline
#87 Posted:
Joined: 08-16-2002
Posts: 794
Robby,

I don't support an actual legal ban on the confederate flag. Just like I don't want that on the swastika. However, I'd feel better about our society if people took the symbolic and existential effect of the flag (which I tried to outline above) seriously, just as we would the swastika. That is, I wish there was some shame about the flag and what it represents (if not in whole, in very large part...defense of the enslavement of innocent men, women, and children) and a sense that that part of our history is to be mournfully regretted.

Then I would feel like displaying the flag was like displaying the swastika: something pretty marginal and radical, something that one wouldn't do AT THE STATEHOUSE!

To be completely honest, I feel the swastika and confederate flag have a serious family resemblance: both represent an era of murderous and tortuous intolerance. Sure, there were 'other issues' in the South, but there were also 'other issues' in Nazi Germany. The problem is that slavery and concentration camps trump those other issues due to their intense, moral weight.

So I don't propose a legal ban. I do, however, propose that we criticize and shame those people who do display it. It recalls a horrific, shameful past in this country and it creates a space where my wife, kid, and I could never, ever feel welcome or comfortable. You can't blame us for that, can you?

This is a free country. That means you are free to look like an idiot and fly the flag. That is why I don't support a legal ban on private ownership. However, that also means that my family should feel free to go wherever (excluding private property) without clear and distinct signs of hostility. Can you imagine what it would feel like to go with my wife and kid to tour a southern statehouse, and then see the confederate flag? What would I say to my kid when she asks 'what does that represent'? The answer wouldn't make my kid feel very welcome, would it? And we are talking about an open public space...part of a 'free' country means that we are all free to go without severe intimidation or discomfort.

I take it very seriously when I see a symbol that rallied defense of the enslavement of my wife's wholly innocent ancestors. I love her more than my own life. I love our baby (though still a fetus!) more than that. And I just can't understand why anyone, save for the racists, would defend a symbol that recalls to my family's mind enslavement, lynching, rape, murder, torture, and so on. Let's not smooth over that part of our history. It was unspeakably violent.

Don't underestimate the intimidation effect of the confederate flag. If you are white, you can just look at it and shrug it off. It is just a curiosity. I was like that for years, until I met my wife and encountered the world differently. I had a lot to learn, and I've learned a lot. If you are non-white, or, like me, the father of a biracial child, you can't shrug it off. It speaks clearly: we hate you, we don't want you here, we very well may direct violence (word or deed) toward you. And we can all agree (I hope) that people who send that message should be criticized and shamed. So I am saying we should include their symbols in that criticism.

John
Charlie Offline
#88 Posted:
Joined: 06-16-2002
Posts: 39,751
Wow,, some thread! I will state one more time, I LOVE the STARS and STRIPES, red , whit and blue of the American Flag!

That is the flag I proudly fly at my home! To me it symbolizes Freedom and Democracy and a way of life, that sometimes we may disagree, but we are all Americans!

Now, lets end this mess in the Middle East! God Bless America, God Bless our President and God Bless our Military men and women!

Charlie
Robby Offline
#89 Posted:
Joined: 10-30-2002
Posts: 5,067
John, what if you're a native American? And offended by the Stars and Stripes? We used Eminent Domain as an excuse to commit unspeakable atrocities on the Indians and our flag is surely a stark reminder of this. Ban it? It is offensive to some. What do the native American’s tell their children when they have to tour your state house?

The fact remains that what you’re speaking to is your personal perspective. It is poignant, and difficult to argue when viewed from your perspective. However, others have other perspective. I don’t ask that you agree with their perspective or with mine, just that it is understood that we’re all different and as a direct result of our diverse background, we perceive the world and everything in it uniquely. Love yourself, love your wife and child, respect diversity, even if it is offensive, it’s peoples right to believe however they belive.

There’s a national endowment for the arts. One would think that I support this whole heartedly since I’m “well endowed”. Nothing could be farther from the truth. They paid some guy 10,000 bux to put a crucifix in a jar and piss in it. That’s my tax dollars. I don’t think they should be spent for that. I’m personally repulsed by the fact that he even did it. But, does that mean he shouldn’t have the right to do so?

How about the Jews? The Pope could arguably be accused of inaction in the holocaust. So what should a Jew think when they see a cross? Contempt? Should people who display crosses be ridiculed? The problem is, it’s a slippery slope… Once you start down it, i.e., “no one should ever fly the confederate flag because it’s offensive” Not illegal, just evocative of harsh criticism.

So then you’re happy, then it begins, then everyone else puts in their two cents, and before you know it, there you are, on the couch, wrapped up tight in your body condom, laying next to xaigoxx. Safe yes, maybe even happy, but it’s not for me.
jdrabinski Offline
#90 Posted:
Joined: 08-16-2002
Posts: 794
Robby,

You know, you completely miss the point. The parallel for Jews is not the Pope or the crucifix. It is the swastika.

I have no desire for a body condom, as you suggest. However, and you just don't see this, the confederate flag (like the swastika...what is the difference, really?) is an overt act of hostility.

Therein lies the difference. And therein lies the resistance to your 'slippery slope' argument, I think.

I can't for the life of me understand why someone would embrace a symbol linked to something as grotesque as slavery. I really can't. You can tell me it is about a million other things, but at the center of it all is the institution of slavery. If you think slavery was wrong, then you refuse its symbols. Pure and simple.

John
Charlie Offline
#91 Posted:
Joined: 06-16-2002
Posts: 39,751
We have come become developed into a nation of Political Correctness, for better or worse! I say for worse, because you never know what whacko group you may offend with an advertisement or public statement!

I could see where Robby's argument about the American Indians would carry as much weight as any of these other whinings and mewlings about Political Correctness!

We need to drop the PI thought process in our media and educational system! I see where Mother's day has been banned by a Private school in New York City because it "offends" same sex parents! Big deal.....live with it!

Charlie
jdrabinski Offline
#92 Posted:
Joined: 08-16-2002
Posts: 794
Charlie,

Just to clarify: you aren't putting slavery on par with Mother's Day, right? Those differences are important. I don't think you can chalk the confederate flag controversy up to PI stuff. It is a very real sense of intimidation and threat. Believe me. I feel it.

Also, on the Native American thing...two things. First, I don't know of any Native American group voicing this concern. So it seems a non-sequitur. Second, Native Americans, in vast numbers, live on autonomous lands. Reservations are nations-with-a-nation. There is no such thing for African-Americans.

Not really the same thing. "Fallacy of equivocation" is the logical term for this, fyi.

John
Robby Offline
#93 Posted:
Joined: 10-30-2002
Posts: 5,067
hahaha (truly laughing now John). You're a character, I'll give you that much. You've placed me in the unenviable position of defending slavery! Talk about equivocation!! I'm NOT defending slavery! I'm NOT defending any symbols you may find offensive. What I am doing is saying what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Are you quite certain there are no Native Americans offended by the flag? Are you quite certain there are no African Americans who proclaim themselves as "separatists" seeking their own nation? Dude, you're right!! “for you and others who agree with you”, more power to you. But you can't force your square peg in to someone else's round hole (not that there’s anything wrong with that) because it suits your agenda.
usahog Offline
#94 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
Total Tunnel Vision or TTV Syndrome....

It is Politically Correct that is the Problem...
Thats why they Keep Re-Writing our History books and wanting to remove all the Facts from events that took place in this nation and around this world to suit what would fit into the Correctness for society today...
Leave it Be...
History is just what it says H I S T O R Y... the way it Happened when it Happened

the American Indian Tragidy is the next post

and Robby my Hat is off to you Sir.
Diveristy is something everyone needs to be aware of and practice!!!!

Hog
Robby Offline
#95 Posted:
Joined: 10-30-2002
Posts: 5,067
Thanks Hog, and JDR, please, I sincerely hope I have not offended you. It was not my intent. I truly do enjoy debating you though :-) very stimulating.
jdrabinski Offline
#96 Posted:
Joined: 08-16-2002
Posts: 794
Robby,

I appreciate the remark there. I am tired, though, and just can't do this one anymore. This flag symbolizes the most unspeakable things about my wife's ancestors (rape, lynching, beatings, death), and I hope (wonder?) if you can imagine the fear the flag puts in my heart for her and our soon-to-be child.

If that is 'political correctness,' then I can only suggest that you take a walk in my shoes, or her shoes, or our child's shoes. Then you'd see it is not about 'being sensitive'; it's about a whole lot more. How would you feel about the flag if your partner was black, if your child was biracial? Would it scare the **** out of you if a couple of men drove up in a truck with that flag on it? Tell the truth.

If you fly or otherwise sport the confederate flag, you can pretty much forget about having black friends. Or just about any non-white friends. That makes me sad, and I can't really understand--try as I may--why one would defend a symbol like that.

I'll read the ongoing discussion of this. But I am not sure I have the heart to contribute. This flag is a personal affront and act of hostility toward me and the people I love most in this world. It pisses me off to no end to hear this deep feeling written off as 'PC.' If you think that, then you just don't understand.

Too bad, actually, because you (Robby) are one of the very few I've debated here that showed me respect. I try to argue respectfully. I hope I have.

John
xaigoxx Offline
#97 Posted:
Joined: 01-01-2000
Posts: 122
Does C-Bid sell body condoms?
southernsupreme Offline
#98 Posted:
Joined: 08-06-2006
Posts: 42
jdrabinski

'don't start with the slavery stuff'...
(MANY PEOPE THINK THAT WAS THE ONLY REASON FOR THE WAR, IT WAS NOT,LOOK AT THE FED RESERVE, WTO,NATO, ECT, SAME PRINCIPAL AT WORK , TOTAL CONTROL)

I try to be intense, but polite. But this is over the top and I have to respond in kind. You are a moron. Let me repeat: you are a moron. A moronic moron.
(NOT NICE TO SAY AT ALL)
The 'slavery stuff' was the greatest tragedy in this nation's history and we should be saddened by its memory.
( IT WAS A TRAGEDY, NEVER SHOULD HAVE HAPPNED, BUT IT WAS MANY YEARS AGO, YOU RESPOND AS IF IT WERE LAST WEEK,WE HAVE LEARNED FROM THAT MISTAKE)
Your nonchalance about it, and this bull**** about being mlk'd to death, etc., shows me that you are no doubt a racist.
(NOT NONCHALANT, JUST NOT OVER EMOTIONAL, IT WAS THE PAST,I AM CONCERNED WITH THE RIGHT NOW AND THE FUTURE..
I BELIEVE EVERY ONE SHOULD RECEIVE EQUAL TREATMENT,NOT SPECIAL TREATMENT FOR ANY REASON, SPECIAL HOLIDAYS AND AWARD SHOWS BASED ON RACE ARE ALL THE RAGE.. HOW WOULD "THE WHITE AWARDS" GO OVER : ) NOT WELL AT ALL,THAT SAYS ALOT ABOUT OUR CURRENT CULTURE AND THE IMPLIED IDEA THAT WHITE PEOPLE ARE BAD. , ANY DECISION MADE BASED ON 'RACE ONLY' IS A BAD THING, IF WE ARE ALL EQUAL IT SHOULD BE JUST THAT NO EXCEPTIONS, ANY THING ELSE IS TRULY RACISM)
That was a pathetic post.
(I TAKE THE 1ST)

You are a minority? What could that possibly mean?
(EMPLOYED, WHITE HETERO-SEXUAL MALES ARE THE ONLY GROUP OF PEOPLE I AM AWARE OF THAT DO NOT BENEFIT FROM SOME SPECIAL GOVERNMENT/SOCIAL LAWS OR PROGRAMS)
Get over yourself. You probably complain that liberals whine, then I read this bull****.
(YOU ARE MAKING AN ASSUMPTION)
You are whining about being a minority, but just about everyone in the congress and the executive branch is EXACTLY that.
(NOT SURE WHAT YOU POINT IS THERE, IF YOU MEAN WE HAVE RACIAL MINORITYS IN CONGRESS, YES WE DO AND THAT IS A GOOD THING)

Go back to the 19th century.
(CANT)
You're exactly the type keeping this country down.
(BLAME IT ALL ON ME , THATS OK : ), YOUR LAST STATEMENT , YOU BLAME ME, EVERY ONE IS BLAMING SOME ONE ELSE. WHAT EVER HAPPENED TO INDIVIDUAL ACCONTABILITY? YOU CAN SEE FROM THE MANY POST ON THIS SUBJECT THAT THERE MAY BE MORE PEOPLE LIKE YOU THAN PEOPLE LIKE ME, AND MAJORITY RULES, IF THIS COUNTRY IS "KEPT DOWN" THE MAJORITY OF WHOM YOU SEEM TO PART OF MUST BE HOLDING US THERE.

MY TOTAL INTENT WAS.. EQUAL RIGHTS FOR ALL, NO SPECIAL RIGHTS FOR ANY ONE...




southernsupreme Offline
#99 Posted:
Joined: 08-06-2006
Posts: 42
jdrabinski :

Sorry, my message was sent before I was done, sorry if I stressed you out, I love a good debate, and your passion inspire me to reply, I wish you and yours the best.
Tony

Robby Offline
#100 Posted:
Joined: 10-30-2002
Posts: 5,067
heh, body condoms :-)

It is said; if you disagree with someone, walk a mile in their shoes.

Afterwards, if you still disagree, it's OK, because you're a mile away, and you have their shoes.
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