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what does this symbolize to you??
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usahog Offline
#1 Posted: Mon, Feb 17 2003, 5:54 PM EST
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
just curios what comes to mind when you see this??

Hog
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hegemonic Offline
#2 Posted: Tue, Feb 18 2003, 3:37 AM EST
Joined: 01-17-2000
Posts: 1,294
the Dukes of Hazzard
DrMaddVibe Offline
#3 Posted: Tue, Feb 18 2003, 3:51 AM EST
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,647
A division of the United States. A band of states that wanted to succeed from the Union to form their own country.

Some(and I can understand why)see this flag as a monument to racial hatred. Others see this as their heritage.

If people want to wave it around, it only makes them look stupid because they truly don't understand the meaning it takes. This nation will not be torn apart.
plabonte Offline
#4 Posted: Tue, Feb 18 2003, 4:07 AM EST
Joined: 09-11-2000
Posts: 2,131
The symbol of rednecks.
RDC Offline
#5 Posted: Tue, Feb 18 2003, 4:29 AM EST
Joined: 01-21-2000
Posts: 5,874
Dukes of Hasbeen, definetly.

Racial hatred? Nope, not in the least.
MY belief is the people who say its a racial symbol are just using it as something else to complain about.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#6 Posted: Tue, Feb 18 2003, 4:32 AM EST
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,647
RDC...right,

That's why the KKK flies this flag alongside it's own banner. Yeah, I can see why you don't get it now!
RDC Offline
#7 Posted: Tue, Feb 18 2003, 4:49 AM EST
Joined: 01-21-2000
Posts: 5,874
Madd, here is a quarter, now go buy a clue.

The KKK knows that flag infuriates a segment of the population. That is why they fly it. If it did not bother anybody do you really think the KKK would fly the flag?
DrMaddVibe Offline
#8 Posted: Tue, Feb 18 2003, 5:12 AM EST
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,647
You're a narrow-minded individual. Go back and read what I wrote at first. Now, if you're saying you can't understand why people think it stands for racial hatered, then that would make you a moron too!

Using your own words..."The KKK knows that flag infuriates a segment of the population. That is why they fly it. If it did not bother anybody do you really think the KKK would fly the flag?" only proves my point of view.

Save your quarter and buy an education!
cigarsmkr Offline
#9 Posted: Tue, Feb 18 2003, 5:40 AM EST
Joined: 09-11-2010
Posts: 33
Many groups who promote hate and provoke and infuriate others use symbols to do this. This one of seven flags the Confederacy flew has been a major part of some people's agenda. When groups like the KKK and others well-known for their idiotic diatribes about racial separation, etc. use the flag of the Confederacy to support their cause, I put their cause under the appropriate scrutiny.

However, the War between the States is part of our country's history and so is that flag. It is unfortunate that some misguided individuals use it in a negative fashion. If South Carolina continues to fly it from the capitol statehouse, so be it. No one there politically is saying let's go back to a 'simpler time.' Everybody knows it strikes a nerve among blacks and whites when they see the StarsnBars. Many blacks see it as a continued symbol of oppression and hatred; some whites see it as history and heritage.

What is truly unfortunate is the revisionist history going on in our society and the fact we ignore what has gotten us into the polarization of the the black and white races - it ain't over a flag. We definitely have bigger issues than that...
rayder1 Offline
#10 Posted: Tue, Feb 18 2003, 5:55 AM EST
Joined: 06-02-2002
Posts: 2,226
It is the former flag of the Confederacy. That's all. It is the former flag of a conquered rebbellion and not really intended as the symbol of anything more.

The Civil War and the flag of the Confederacy was not flown to show hatred of black people in the days of the Civil War. Slavery was just one of the issues of the Civil War and a partial component of what it was about.

Frankly, my opinion is, since it was the flag of a conquered rebellion, it should be considered illegal to fly that flag for that reason only.

Only lately and intentionally, it was used as a symbol of hatred. Just as a swastika is used. People should be careful of the context of how this flag is flown.

So, do dreadlocks make one a dope smoking Rastafarian? Does the African flag make one an African National? Does putting a number on your car make your car a race car? Does a pot belly, long hair and a beat up pick up truck make one a redneck?

Nope. Just signs and symbols. They are only as dangerous as your interpretation.
Sonny_LSU Offline
#11 Posted: Tue, Feb 18 2003, 6:40 AM EST
Joined: 11-21-2002
Posts: 1,835
Rayder speaks with a wise tongue. Truthfully, the vast majority of individuals who fly this flag are trying to make their predjudice intentions be known. However, there are some who take it to heart as a symbol of their southern heritage. The debate over the negative sentiments it carries for certain ethnic groups will forever be unresolved......what irritates the hell out of me is how the both sides of the argument do NOT have any idea of the TRUE circumstances surrounding it. And, for the unknowing, the Civil War was not about abolishing slavery in and of itself. Rather, it was a war centered around fiscal issues (most of which involved slavery as a commodity) that neither side could resolve.....not to "free slaves". When I hear certain individuals bemoan their "ancestors " plight due to slavery, I want to vomit.....what were their names? what hard-ships did they face(and there are many)? What part of the south were they from????? If you REALLY care about them (ancestors), then do them the honor of researching their experiences!
xibbumbero Offline
#12 Posted: Tue, Feb 18 2003, 7:00 AM EST
Joined: 01-25-2002
Posts: 12,535
Rayder pretty much says it all. X
plabonte Offline
#13 Posted: Tue, Feb 18 2003, 7:12 AM EST
Joined: 09-11-2000
Posts: 2,131
Dr MaddVibe,

The KKK also uses the cross as a symbol during their rallys. Does that mean the cross is a symbol of racial hatred?

(please note that this post is not meant to promote or defend the KKK in any way shape or form.)
Robby Offline
#14 Posted: Tue, Feb 18 2003, 7:23 AM EST
Joined: 10-30-2002
Posts: 5,067
The Inquisition? NO ONE expects the Spanish Inquisition!!
Charlie Offline
#15 Posted: Tue, Feb 18 2003, 7:50 AM EST
Joined: 06-16-2002
Posts: 39,751
It was a Southern Battle Flag of the Confederacy. I look at it as part of the Southern Heritage, nothing more! Too bad it has been prostitued over the years and degraded by the rednecks and skin heads of the KKK and other such organizaitons! No, it should not be flown over State Capitol buildings! It is too bad that something like this has become a symbol of hatred or viewed as such!

Charlie
DrMaddVibe Offline
#16 Posted: Tue, Feb 18 2003, 7:54 AM EST
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,647
Pla, borrow RDC's quarter.
smithbw Offline
#17 Posted: Tue, Feb 18 2003, 8:47 AM EST
Joined: 09-01-2001
Posts: 2,444
I agree with Charlie, Southern Battle Flag.

Regards,

B
usahog Offline
#18 Posted: Tue, Feb 18 2003, 9:47 AM EST
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
Charlie and B are right in there thinking
Confederate Battle (Square) AKA "Southern Cross"

Confusion was caused by the commanders not being able to distinguish their troops from those of the enemy and adding to these difficulties was the fact that the "Stars and Bars" was so similar to the "Stars and Stripes" . General Beauregard was determined to remedy the flag problem, he attempted to have the Confederate flag changed but Congressman William Porcher Miles suggested that the army adopt its own distinctive battle flag, and recommended the design he had presented to the Congress as the Confederate Flag on March 4, 1861. This flag was agreed upon but it was recommended that it would be more convenient and lighter as well as less likely to be tore by bayonets or tree branches if made square. This flag was issued in different sizes; 48 inches square for the infantry, 36 inches for the artillery, and 30 inches for the cavalry. Other flags such as State regimental colors were used by the Confederacy on the battlefield, but the Battle Flag, although it was never officially recognized by the Confederate government, came to represent the Southern "cause" to most people.

it is a piece of History... and it is a shame that many groups KKK Neo Nazi and the like... want to use this in Demonstrations against other people and there beliefs... I do not think it should be removed... simply because it does not represent Slavery as Raydar pointed out....it is a shame that our society nowadays do not know any better then to think this is a symbol of Hatered...to think the Schools and the simple minded teachers could tech what is real instead of what they feel it aught to be
here's a good artical to go along with this
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A18621-2003Feb16.html

these men didn't forget there heritage and if you ask them I bet they know more about that flag then many on this board do....

Enjoy!!
Hog
Spiny Norman Offline
#19 Posted: Tue, Feb 18 2003, 10:56 AM EST
Joined: 09-04-2002
Posts: 899
My great, great, great grandfather was a delegate to to the South Carolina successionist convention.
While doing geaneology research, I came across several letters he wrote home to his wife in Anderson SC discussing the pros and cons of the debate. Nowhere does he mention slavery although States rights were a preemeniant concern. He was also a wealthy landowner who owned upwards of 60 slaves. I never got the impression from his writings that the loss of slavery was what worried him. He knew a war with the north was a real possability and with seven sons, he had a lot to loose. He signed the declaration just the same.
Now when I see the Battle flag, I think of the guts they had to put it all on the line and fight for what they believed in. but on December 20th it's the Flag of the confederacy http://kiddercom.com/images/1stnatl.gif that I have hanging from my porch. I look at it this way, The Battle flag was designed for the battlefield and should be left there with those honored dead. That war is over and I'm glad slavery is a thing of the past. The Flag of the Confederacy better serves the memory of the south IMHO.
Robby Offline
#20 Posted: Tue, Feb 18 2003, 11:44 AM EST
Joined: 10-30-2002
Posts: 5,067
It's a HUGE issues here in Georgia. I'm in Atlanta and some say that Sonny Purdue (first repub Gov in 130 years?) won due in part to the previous Governor changing the flag. There were signs all over rural GA with the battle flag and the caption "let us vote!".

It certainly seems to be a polarizing issue. I for one don't see/understand all of the passion on EITHER side of the issue. It's a flag people!! Get a hobby (not you folks, that's more to the people of GA in general). However, living outside a major metropolitan area, there is one huge advantage... If you receive a jury summons, you show up at the courthouse wearing a tee shirt with a battle flag and the caption "Changing Our Flag Won't Fly" emblazoned across it. Due to the demographics, statistically it tends to disqualify you as a prospective juror...
octowings Offline
#21 Posted: Tue, Feb 18 2003, 11:44 AM EST
Joined: 10-22-2002
Posts: 390
usahog Offline
#22 Posted: Tue, Feb 18 2003, 11:55 AM EST
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
So does telling the Judge Your a Proud member of the NRA and have your right to Bear Arm's and not affraid to use them LoL...

the let us vote??? I'm confused I thought you said this was GA... Not Florida....LMAO!!!!!

Hog
Robby Offline
#23 Posted: Tue, Feb 18 2003, 11:59 AM EST
Joined: 10-30-2002
Posts: 5,067
Heheheh, yeah, they wanted to vote on the flag. A boortz tee shirt will have pretty much the same effect around hear (conservative talk show host). He call them "Flagits". People who are "fixated" on the flag issue.
RDC Offline
#24 Posted: Tue, Feb 18 2003, 12:04 PM EST
Joined: 01-21-2000
Posts: 5,874
Ah yes, Mr. Boortz. Fun web site.
plabonte Offline
#25 Posted: Tue, Feb 18 2003, 12:44 PM EST
Joined: 09-11-2000
Posts: 2,131
DR M don't need anyone's quarter. My posts already make cents (sense sorry bad pun).

Just because a group of hateful people use a symbol doesn't mean that symbol automatically stands for hate. Especially when it had a meaning prior to that groups use.

Although I don't think this flag should be flying above any building unless it is for historical purposes. I.e. flying above a confederate fort.
rookie139 Offline
#26 Posted: Tue, Feb 18 2003, 1:14 PM EST
Joined: 03-02-2000
Posts: 2,149
Charlie and Rayder said it all...It is a symbol of a former confederacy and shouldn't be flown over any southern state capital...I wouldn't necessarily say the flag is racist in itself, but what the flag symbolizes IS racism and a time in history where we as Americans should be revolted...The flag does have significant historical value, as does old slave shackles, slave tags, and "No Blacks Allowed" signs from the days of segregation..All of these items are not racist in itself either and do have signifant historical value but the meaning behind each of these items should very much be condoned as racist and should not be displayed anywhere except in museums
Robby Offline
#27 Posted: Tue, Feb 18 2003, 2:48 PM EST
Joined: 10-30-2002
Posts: 5,067
First Amendment Baby!
CulleyJC52 Offline
#28 Posted: Tue, Feb 18 2003, 4:15 PM EST
Joined: 09-25-2002
Posts: 369
Only a way of identification as was the color of uniforms.

This war had to happen to truly bond the nation we have today. Many southerns that served in the confederacy did not necessarily support slavery, but was loyal to their state, as was men that served in the union army. Best example of this is the graduates of West Point, most all remained loyal to their States dicision, best example was Lee. Lee could have been a Union General had he kept with his beliefs and choose over his state.

Don't think flag should be used to incite hatred, but, do think is is part of and has a place in our heritage/ history. Many good men dead on both sides carring their respective symbols.
xaigoxx Offline
#29 Posted: Wed, Feb 19 2003, 2:37 AM EST
Joined: 01-01-2000
Posts: 122
LET ME TELL YOU SOMETHING ABOUT THIS FLAG,

Rayder said most of the things I wanted to say. Its how you represent it. I'm Asian-American and I use to live in a neighborhood around a bunch of KKK and KKK sympathizers. I had to go to school with their children and the like.

Most of these morons were born and raised in California and so were their parents. They wear this symbol on their shirts and display the flag outside their homes and pass KKK flyers in my neighborhood. So this flag is not just a flag...it can be, and has been used as a symbol of segregation and racial hatred.

I also have a neighbor and a few acquaintances who display this flag out of pride. Theyre from the south and don't have a prejudice bone in their body. They tell me.. its pride not hate. So as Rayder said, its representation.

Now, for everyone else...meaning ethnic minorities, this flag usually represents racial hatred. Because of the past and what this flag represented during and before the civil war, and also because of its use in the KKK, this generalization is understandable.
E-Chick Offline
#30 Posted: Wed, Feb 19 2003, 11:01 AM EST
Joined: 06-15-2002
Posts: 4,877
Maybe someone will post a pic of a dollar bill and let's see what the symbolizations are...

It means different things to different people...great food for thought, hog.

BTW, I've been wanting to get the California flag changed...a bear has no bearing (how's that for a pun) on my life or lifestyle!

I think it outta be a rainbow flag with the Raider's emblem emblazin in the center and with a prick in a yellow '03 Ferrari something or other driving a 16 yr old with some big silicone boobs across the bottom on Hollywood Blvd.

That's what California is all about...now THAT'S pride!
Charlie Offline
#31 Posted: Wed, Feb 19 2003, 1:51 PM EST
Joined: 06-16-2002
Posts: 39,751
This will be Politically Incorrect, so watch out if you are soft of humor:

California Flag could have two guys holding hands!

Charlie
ducati996 Offline
#32 Posted: Wed, Feb 19 2003, 2:44 PM EST
Joined: 01-02-2000
Posts: 3,477
This was a symbol of an enemy of the United States of America. This was a symbol of a government that condoned oppression. The south lost....get over it...we did.
Robby Offline
#33 Posted: Wed, Feb 19 2003, 5:09 PM EST
Joined: 10-30-2002
Posts: 5,067
Free speach baby! Get over it!!
DrMaddVibe Offline
#34 Posted: Wed, Feb 19 2003, 5:40 PM EST
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,647
Oh, we're over it. We're not the ones trying to resurrect some "fantasyland" in the "days of cotton"!

They lost, and got their ass kicked! France and Great Britain couldn't even help them! The preservation of the United States is what THAT war was about, and nothing more.

Anyone that flies that flag nowadays is actually saying that they don't like the US!

Wrong is STILL wrong, no matter how you want to sugar-coat it!
Robby Offline
#35 Posted: Wed, Feb 19 2003, 5:43 PM EST
Joined: 10-30-2002
Posts: 5,067
Dr. there's a few million people who disagree (respectfully). Hey, ya know what they call a Dr. who graduated last in his class? .... DR! :-) Something to consider durring the next physical.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#36 Posted: Wed, Feb 19 2003, 5:50 PM EST
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,647
Facts are facts Rob!

Where are those "millions" that counter the truth? Why don't the "rise again"! Nothing has changed, and the South would STILL get their ass handed back to them "Sherman-ized"!

Baaw-hahahahahaha!
Tobasco Offline
#37 Posted: Wed, Feb 19 2003, 7:24 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2003
Posts: 2,809


I think Robby is right.

But I dont like the flag on a government building. The Gov shouldnt aleinate any citizens. Other than that, it is freedom of speech here.

A question!

Is it illegal to carry a sign that says,"I dont like black people"? I think it is legal, isnt it? Freedom of speech, right? I really dont know, so anyone that knows, jump in and tell me.

Im sure you would get the crap beat out of you, for doing it, but lets go with this.

Its a ridiculous statement of course! But if its legal to do that, then this flag would be covered by the same right, wouldnt it? Especially because its meaning to each individual can be different, and can be looked at as non prejudicial.

There are many things I hate to see. I get a worked up over them, you guys know that. Hehe!

But this flag is a historic symbol that every person will interpret in his own way. I dont like it. I hate it that the KKK uses it. I hate that the KKK is allowed to exist!! I hate that in this day and age, we are even talking about this!!

Just a couple of my thoughts.

Mag





xaigoxx Offline
#38 Posted: Wed, Feb 19 2003, 7:39 PM EST
Joined: 01-01-2000
Posts: 122
Well the KKK is a group of racial terrorists and this is their flag..their symbol. There are good white people and white trash like the KKK. There are good Muslims and Muslim trash like the Al Qaeda. So... if the Al Qaeda had a flag and people who supported them in the USA had the flag outside of their homes, wore it on their T-shirts, passed flyers around it about their cause with the flag on it, put signs on their cars and license plates with the flag, and etc, is that ok?

Yelling FIRE! in a middle of a shopping mall when there really isnt is abusing this right. Freedom of Speech should be practiced carefully and responsibly. This flag represents racism and racial terrorism. For those of you who havent experienced this on the receiving end, will not fully understand this feeling until you travel to a country that hates you.
ducati996 Offline
#39 Posted: Thu, Feb 20 2003, 2:06 AM EST
Joined: 01-02-2000
Posts: 3,477
They are correct, it is freedom of speech. It isn't against the law to look like a moron. Just ask the Illinios nazis with their swastika.
TubeDoc Offline
#40 Posted: Thu, Feb 20 2003, 2:42 AM EST
Joined: 05-05-2002
Posts: 69
I did not read all these posts, but I will tell you what I believe. It is NOT the flag of the Confederacy. It is a BATTLE flag that Gen. Lee used. It is based on the Cross of St. Andrew. It is wrong to use it as a symbol of the Confederacy. If you want to portray the flag of the CSA, use the stars and bars.
I am a decendant of Confederate Soldiers, for what that is worth. A battle flag denotes struggle. Why are we struggling. I would no more want there to be a separate countries than I would want to have Al Sharpton or David Duke as president.
It is time to let it go! We have a great country.
Doc
Robby Offline
#41 Posted: Thu, Feb 20 2003, 3:40 AM EST
Joined: 10-30-2002
Posts: 5,067
Come on xaigoxx! You know that argument is ridiculous, don't you? It's not a logical comparison and you want to be logical don't you? Yelling fire puts people in imminent danger of being trampled. What danger are you put in if I fly a battle flag on my bumper sticker?

That's an absurd comparison. I don't fly one, but if I wanted to (and many do), what the hell should it matter to you? Are African Americans who where a big X on their hat committing some kind of a crime? Some believe Malcolm X was somewhat of a terrorist... Should their “feelings” be protected by disallowing that form of free speech? They're not committing a crime anymore than someone who wants to wear a North Korean Flag, or a battle flag.

Hey, here's a good comparison for you, Yelling fire isn't legal because people could get hurt, well therefore, we should not have free speech, because someone could say something that hurts someone else’s feelings, right?

Let's all just put giant body condoms on, tape our mouths and ears shut, and lay on our couches, that way, you'd never have to be so terribly offended by seeing (pause) A confederate flag! Oh No!! Hey, you first, ok? Let me know when you're in position on the couch.
jreddoch Offline
#42 Posted: Thu, Feb 20 2003, 3:54 AM EST
Joined: 12-30-2000
Posts: 1,309
A rallying symbol for crackers, reactionaries, and yahoos. I am a native Texan and had a Great-Great-Grandfather who fought for the Confederacy. In his letters home he expressed anger that he had to risk his life so the rich man could keep his slaves. Does anyone really think that the USA would have become the superpower it is today if the division had stood? Thank God the Union won that war. If I had been alive at that time, I would have been one of the 450,000 Southerners who fought for the Union.
PMoreno349 Offline
#43 Posted: Thu, Feb 20 2003, 7:11 AM EST
Joined: 07-05-2002
Posts: 665
stupidity
Robby Offline
#44 Posted: Thu, Feb 20 2003, 8:26 AM EST
Joined: 10-30-2002
Posts: 5,067
judge not lest ye be judged harshly... For those that judge harshly shall be judged... HARSLEY! I don't want to be on the receiving side of any harsh judgment... I say if you want to fly the F'ing Greenland flag, go for it. Whatever blows your skirt up.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#45 Posted: Thu, Feb 20 2003, 9:18 AM EST
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,647
Rob, unless you're God Almighty(which you aren't!!!), you don't have any authority to judge! What does judging have to do with this stupid decisive flag?

A:Nothing!
Charlie Offline
#46 Posted: Thu, Feb 20 2003, 9:55 AM EST
Joined: 06-16-2002
Posts: 39,751
I am from the South! I sm a student of History and my favorite subjects are World War II and the American Civil War, both of which will provide hours of pleasureable reading and study!

I am about as Patriotic as anybody can be...fly American Flags at my house and have flag decals on my cars! I will never forget nor forgive 9/11-do not ever expect me to forgive or forget that horrible event in American History!

I happen to think the Southern Cross or the Confederate Battle Flag is a beautiful piece of American History and signifies the brave men that fought for the Confederacy against the brave men who fought for the North or the USA! I do not view this flag as a symbol of hatred or bigotry! I think of it being waived by the Southern Cavalary troops as they fought at Gettysburg, Vicksburg or any other storied battle!

I love the American Flag and think that it is the greatest symbol of Freedom and Democracy in the entire World! Call me an American!

Charlie
jreddoch Offline
#47 Posted: Thu, Feb 20 2003, 10:10 AM EST
Joined: 12-30-2000
Posts: 1,309
Charlie! You like! Exclamation points! Don't you?!!!
Charlie Offline
#48 Posted: Thu, Feb 20 2003, 10:27 AM EST
Joined: 06-16-2002
Posts: 39,751
Yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
xaigoxx Offline
#49 Posted: Thu, Feb 20 2003, 11:17 AM EST
Joined: 01-01-2000
Posts: 122
Point proven that this flag means many different things to different people. In the south, they see it everywhere. so it can mean a lot of different things.

Here in California, this flag doesnt symbolize southern california! When I see the flag here, its usually when a bunch of neo nazi punks stroll the streets. So this flag is used for many.. many different messages in different areas around the country.
Robby Offline
#50 Posted: Thu, Feb 20 2003, 11:24 AM EST
Joined: 10-30-2002
Posts: 5,067
There is an interesting (very interesting!) perspective. I'm fond of calling people JACKA$$'S and looking askance at them based on their lily livered liberal leanings, which is arguably judging. However, I take umbrage at the same treatment, people saying free speech is wrong and anyone with a penchant for history and southern pride is really just using code for being a racist bigoted nazi. I view that as being judgmental and wrong, but see nothing wrong with my views toward the pinko's with their strongly held liberal beliefs... Very interesting, and enlightening. Introspection, has brought about a veritable dialect epiphany. "the Hegelian process of change in which a concept or its realization passes over into and is preserved and fulfilled by its opposite"...

I will try not to be as judgmental of those without the capacity to see things correctly. :-)
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