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Last post 20 years ago by usahog. 34 replies replies.
What Chief Justice Roy Moore is Fighting For!!!
usahog Offline
#1 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
ENDOWED BY OUR CREATOR

In God I Trust
Why I'm standing up for the Ten Commandments in Alabama.
BY ROY S. MOORE
Monday, August 25, 2003 12:01 a.m. EDT

MONTGOMERY, Ala.--The battle over the Ten Commandments monument I brought into Alabama's Supreme Court is not about a monument and not about politics. (The battle is not even about religion, a term defined by our Founders as "the duty we owe to our creator and the manner for discharging it.") Federal Judge Myron Thompson, who ordered the monument's removal, and I are in perfect agreement on the fact that the issue in this case is: "Can the state acknowledge God?"

Those were the precise words used by Judge Thompson in his closing remarks in open court. Today, I argue for the rule of law, and against any unilateral declaration of a judge to ban the acknowledgment of God in the public sector.

We must acknowledge God in the public sector because the state constitution explicitly requires us to do so. The Alabama Constitution specifically invokes "the favor and guidance of Almighty God" as the basis for our laws and justice system. As the chief justice of the state's supreme court I am entrusted with the sacred duty to uphold the state's constitution. I have taken an oath before God and man to do such, and I will not waver from that commitment.

By telling the state of Alabama that it may not acknowledge God, Judge Thompson effectively dismantled the justice system of the state. Judge Thompson never declared the Alabama Constitution unconstitutional, but the essence of his ruling was to prohibit judicial officers from obeying the very constitution they are sworn to uphold. In so doing, Judge Thompson and all who supported his order, violated the rule of law.

Alabama Attorney General Bill Pryor and my fellow justices have argued that they must act to remove the monument to preserve the rule of law. But the precise opposite is true: Article VI of the Constitution makes explicitly clear that the Constitution, and the laws made pursuant to it, are "the supreme Law of the Land." Judge Thompson and the judges of the 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals have all sworn oaths which bind them to support the Constitution as it is written--not as they would personally prefer it to be written.

By subjugating the people of Alabama to the unconstitutional edict by Judge Thompson, that public officials may not acknowledge God, the attorney general and my colleagues have made the fiat opinion of a judge supreme over the text of the Constitution. While agreeing with me that the Constitution is supreme, and that the opinion of Judge Thompson was contrary to the Constitution, the attorney general has argued that he must follow an order he himself believes to be in direct violation of the supreme law of the land.

One of the great influences on the Founding Fathers, common law sage William Blackstone, once pointed out that judges do not make laws, they interpret them. No judge has the authority to impose his will on the people of a state, and no judge has the constitutional authority to forbid public officials from acknowledging the same God specifically mentioned in the charter documents of our nation, the Declaration of Independence and the United States Constitution.
My decision to disregard the unlawful order of the federal judge was not civil disobedience, but the lawful response of the highest judicial officer of the state to his oath of office. Had the judge declared the 13th Amendment prohibition on involuntary slavery to be illegal, or ordered the churches of my state burned to the ground, there would be little question in the minds of the people of Alabama and the U.S. that such actions should be ignored as unconstitutional and beyond the legitimate scope of a judge's authority. Judge Thompson's decision to unilaterally void the duties of elected officials under the state constitution and to prohibit judges from acknowledging God is equally unlawful.

For half a century the fanciful tailors of revisionist jurisprudence have been working to strip the public sector naked of every vestige of God and morality. They have done so based on fake readings and inconsistent applications of the First Amendment. They have said it is all right for the U.S. Supreme Court to publicly place the Ten Commandments on its walls, for Congress to open in prayer and for state capitols to have chaplains--as long as the words and ideas communicated by such do not really mean what they purport to communicate. They have trotted out before the public using words never mentioned in the U.S. Constitution, like "separation of church and state," to advocate, not the legitimate jurisdictional separation between the church and state, but the illegitimate separation of God and state.

The First Amendment says that "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." It does not take a constitutional scholar to recognize that I am not Congress, and no law has been passed. Nevertheless, Judge Thompson's order states that the acknowledgment of God crosses the line between the permissible and the impermissible and that to acknowledge God is to violate the Constitution.
Not only does Judge Thompson put himself above the law, but above God, as well. I say enough is enough. We must "dare defend our rights" as Alabama's state motto declares. No judge or man can dictate what we believe or in whom we believe. The Ninth and 10th Amendments are not a part of the Constitution simply to make the Bill of Rights a round number. The Ninth Amendment secured our right as a people. The 10th guaranteed our right as a sovereign state. Those are the rules of law.

Mr. Moore is the chief justice of the Supreme Court of Alabama.

Enjoy!!!
Hog
donutboy2000 Offline
#2 Posted:
Joined: 11-20-2001
Posts: 25,000
How can Moore pick and choose what Federal laws he wishes to comply with? What if we all did? I do not agree with the Thompson decision, but I also do not agree with Moore's actions. Comply, then continue to fight through the system.
usahog Offline
#3 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
DB Justice Moore Did not pick and Choose which ones to uphold... if you have been current on this issue.. you would see very well that Chief Justice Moore was nad has been upholding the laws of the Alabama State Constitution and will continue to do so as the People of the State have Elected his Honor to Do So... I just wish there were about 10,000 more like Justice Roy Moore... seem's allot of them faded away back in my Grandpa's Era!!!
when the US Supreme Court Over Turns there decission this will open up a whole lot of other decissions dating back more then 10 years that I can recall....

but this one is defenantly in the State's Rights

my .02 Cents Worth

Hog
jdrabinski Offline
#4 Posted:
Joined: 08-16-2002
Posts: 794
Irony here: he swears on a Bible (a binding oath!) to uphold and enforce the law.

Then the law becomes something he doesn't like, suddenly his oath to God and State mean nothing?

Being a judge means being bound to the laws and principles of this country. It does not mean that you get to follow your own conscience. Sorry!

You know you are in the wrong when you are too freakishly religious for even the Alabama Supreme Court!

John
usahog Offline
#5 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
John and donutboy,

Did either of you two read or even understand what is going on in this matter? or have you both just closed yourselves off to the Outside Relization to the facts in the matter and drawn your own conclusions based on the fact the Issue deals with a Religion?

I am very curious to both of your reply's here

and there is even a philosophical aspect to look at in this Issue!!!

I'll be waiting
Hog
Robby Offline
#6 Posted:
Joined: 10-30-2002
Posts: 5,067
I read it, word for word, and he's right (the Judge)...
usahog Offline
#7 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
the nad = And in my second post there above!!

Hog
JonR Offline
#8 Posted:
Joined: 02-19-2002
Posts: 9,740
Yo Hog: The monument that Moore installed was his own personel property ( he owned it out right ). So Hog let me ask you this, what if Moore was a muslim and installed a monument of the Koran would you fight for his right to do so, or if he was an African American and installed a Black Jesus on a cross how hard would you fight for his beliefs then, after all God is God no matter what religion you practice. JonR
usahog Offline
#9 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
Yes JonR I would fight for that if that is what my Constitutional Rights would have me do.. it does not matter the Race Creed or Color nor the Religion or Origin... the fact that the Laws of the State Protect each enaliable (sp) Rights of the People in the 1st and the 10th Ammendments of the United States Constitutional Ammendments give this man or any other the Right to have such!!! so yes if it be anything infringing on that I would fight... I take it you on the other hand would stand by and let these RIGHT'S be Trampled on until like Hitler in Nazi Germany or Stallin in Russia... you will not have any Rights left... and then you would say What????

Hog
usahog Offline
#10 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
Man I really thought this post would bring out allot more Blood then what I've seen so far??? everyone must be sleeping!!!

So JonR same question back atchya.. Would you fight for the Constitution of these United States? and if my Memory is Correct "You Already Have" and Would Again... so the question you aimed at me was already answered by yourself before you posted it!!!

Hog
billyjackson Offline
#11 Posted:
Joined: 08-19-2002
Posts: 2,860
In my opinion, the Judge and his supporters are putting a lot of energy in seizing the opportunity to be public for the sake of being public. As Christians, they think they are using this as a witnessing tool to show outsiders that they are committed and are willing to sacrifice for what they believe...and to claim that God's law is above human law.

What pisses me off is that it's such a public farce that they are so hellbent on this monument. They are raising hell for the sake of raising hell but claiming that it is an issue of constitutional rights and religious freedom. It's kind of like bitching about prayer in schools...there are a helluva lot more important things to worry about than this. The thing is, the more important things take a lot more effort and smarts to deal with than a f*cking monument. But somehow, they get to "show" how faithful they are by standing up for this...but it really ends up being a pathetic substitute for actually doing something useful and compassionate with their faith.

But what the hell do I know?
usahog Offline
#12 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
Oh BTW Jon the Quran has the ten commandments in it!!!

thought I would toss that one in there...

this Argument with Justice is Nothing to do with Religion other then the Ten Commandments being in a place... just like the Confederate Flag that Flew in the N.Carolina or was it S. Carolina Courthouses?
it is not the Right of the United States Government to Infringe on the States Rights!!!!
allot of the US Supreme Courts Justices have taken the Constitution and the Laws of this Great Nation and Twisted them to their Own Beliefs!!!!! and with that We the People are Damn Near back where our Forfathers started from!!! if the People of this Great Nation keep turning their Cheek to the surroundings going on... one day they will not have a voice in the Matters
Period!!!

Hog
jdrabinski Offline
#13 Posted:
Joined: 08-16-2002
Posts: 794
usahog,

I did read the article, considered the arguments, and felt as I said in my earlier post: he must uphold the law. Law in made through judicial and legislative interpretations of the constitution. The constitution is neither transparent nor fixed. The point of any good constitution is to lay down general principles to guide interpretation.

Seeking 'favor and guidance' does not mean putting a specific religion's sacred symbol in the center of a hall of justice. It is a rhetorical appeal to conscience writ in god's name. To put this monument in the hall of justice is equivalent to saying 'this is the state's religion.' And we don't have a state established religion.

Pretty straightforward, in my eyes. If it was all so obvious as Moore tells it here, then there would not have been the judicial dispute...one resolved contrary to Moore's wishes. As a servant of the court (albeit a high servant), he is required by duty to uphold the court's decisions. Open and shut, so far as I am concerned.

Remove it, fight it out, if you win, put it back. The Supreme Court (a conservative bunch these days) wouldn't even hear the case. That says a lot about its merits, I think.

That is more detailed, but essentially the same as I posted above. Interesting issues, yes, and philosophical ones. But I think the judge has been shown to be on VERY shaky ground...ground that fell out from under him according to unanimous decisions!

My thoughts.

That said, where was the commitment of these defenders/demonstrators? Why didn't they do something more drastic like chain themselves to the damn thing! I know my folks would have made more of a ruckus, for better or worse!

John
jdrabinski Offline
#14 Posted:
Joined: 08-16-2002
Posts: 794
usahog,

Would you like things to be such that states can do whatever they want, even if they run counter to the US constitution? That's what Moore did.

If so, then how are we even a country? There is no nation without binding principles in common, across states.

John
usahog Offline
#15 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
No John your WRONG... Justice Thompson and the United States Supreme Court Was wrong here not Justice Moore
Amendment I.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Amendment X.
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

Amendment XIV
Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

the US Supreme court has Infringed on the States Rights!!!

Justice Moore is upholding the Rights of his State he was Appointed to Do so!!!

Read the Alabama State Constitution then come back and see me ;0)

Hog
usahog Offline
#16 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
John, Do you Swear to tell the Truth the Whole Truth and nothing but the Truth So Help You GOD?

hmmmmm sounds kinda contradictive to all the said circumstances here and above doesn't it??

Hog
usahog Offline
#17 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
But then Again, it is OK with the US Supreme Court that folks Burn the American Flag in Protests because, This is their 1st Ammendment Rights???

kind of Double Standards don't you think?

Hog
usahog Offline
#18 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
BTW disregard me saying your WRONG.. it was directed or ment to be Directed at the Supreme Court Justice Thompson not yourself...

Hog
donutboy2000 Offline
#19 Posted:
Joined: 11-20-2001
Posts: 25,000
Federal law trumps State law
funjohnny19 Offline
#20 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 74
I just posted this on the other thread regarding this matter.......

Judge Moore is trying to open a can of worms, for no apparent reason. This whole issue is a dead end, and being a judge and a public official, he should know this.....

Judge Moore declared Monday that he could disobey the direct order of a federal judge because "judges do not make laws, they interpret them." He followed it up by claiming that an interpretation can be wrong, so he can defy the judicial order. HUH?!?! So if Judge Moore sentences a man to prison for life, that man can question the judge's interpretation of the law and walk free? Sorry.

Moore further said that the First Amendment precept, "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion," does not apply to him because "I am not Congress." Wow.

The 14th Amendment to the CONSTITUTION, ratified in 1868, was intended to extend the Bill of Rights to state governments. Last I checked, it was passed. Furthermore, a 1937 Supreme Court decision declared that the 1st Amendment binds state officials, like Judge Moore for example. I mean, where talking about a hunk of stone here?!?!

This guy is sitting on a bench, making decisions that affect people lives without a clear understand of the LAW?? Once again.....wow. You don't like the letter of the law?? I think he picked the wrong profession...

If you're Christian, a big hunk of stone standing in a square isn't what matters. It's God's message that matters. If you need the object to believe, you don't really believe.

funjohnny19
usahog Offline
#21 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
Tell me funjohnny, where does the Judge who gave that Order get his rights to do so?

Without this Judge (Thompson) totally disregarding the Constitution of the United States. he has no Basis but "self gradification" to legally set the court order in Motion...

Take your time with this one... I want to see if you can come up with a legal answer???

Hog
usahog Offline
#22 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
See "Alabama judge and the 10 Commandments Post"
http://www.cigarbid.com/...geDisplay=0000000013517

For the Answer to this Trivial Question that has taunted so many minds with their own belief's on what this is all about

There you will see the FACTS on what Truely is Happening!!!

Hog
crisatodd Offline
#23 Posted:
Joined: 01-08-2003
Posts: 9
You say "We must acknowledge God". That is a persuasive statement that stems from a belief that those who don't think like you are less of a human. Why should everyone acknowledge what certain individuals imagine? Spirituality is personal to an individual and should remain so. Mandated belief systems are what got the Germans in trouble. The same mentality allowed people in the South to believe that those of darker skin should not vote and enjoy the same liberties as lighter Americans. How much of the South still thinks this way? For some people, religion is racism. Do you believe that Atheist should be brought to the light? What do you think Ben Franklin would say about this?
usahog Offline
#24 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
crisatodd, the word "Mandate" in your post answered your own question... if the People of the United States allow the Federal Judicial System to step in and mandate the policy over this States Rights.. is just one more step closer to the Germans!!!

I wouldn't know How ol'Ben would Feel, Why don't you ask him when you see him??

I'm not worried about the Atheists. They have their own Beliefs to deal with!!!

Hog
funjohnny19 Offline
#25 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 74
Mr. Hog,

Where does the judge who made the order get his rights to do so??? FROM THE CONSTITUTION!!! I read the other post and I've been following this issue, but the argument you are making and the matter Judge Moore is protesting holds no weight in a court of law. If you want to argue the facts, what is right and what is just, then that's an entirely different matter. But the law is written such that Judge Moore cannot do what he has done. Is it right?? That is not my decision to make. Has history proven time and time again that sometimes, some laws just don't make sense?? Yes. In this instance, Judge Moore brings up a valid point. Unfortunately, he is wrong. His interpretation is wrong. The Constitution of the United States of America may be telling the State of Alabama what they can and cannot do, but that's the way it was intended. How can you not see that?? If the US Constitution starts taking a backseat to every state's individual wishes, then you no longer have one nation, under GOD, indivisible (def: incapable of undergoing division), with Liberty and Justice for all. You have 50 entities, each lobbying for their own piece of the big pie......

In other words, nothing would really change at all. I'm going for a smoke......

funjohnny19
godfather1453406 Offline
#26 Posted:
Joined: 06-11-2003
Posts: 426
The day I won't mind them taking down the ten commandments is the day they take "In God we trust" out of the 1 dollar bill. No one will ever take that out because money is too fundamental for them.
usahog Offline
#27 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
Smoke a Blunt Funjohnny, then when you come back read the last post I posted on the previous thread, and then tell me again what your inturpitation (sp) of your rights are??
And
"You have 50 entities, each lobbying for their own piece of the big pie"
that would be times 2,= 100, Each State has 2 Senators lobbying for their piece of that pie!!!!

Hog
funjohnny19 Offline
#28 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 74
Hog - I read the other post. I can see both sides and I understand your take on this one. You may be right.

I just think this issue has gotten too far from the point........Can a public official erect a 2.5 ton religious artifact in a public place??? I say no. But honestly, I could care less....
usahog Offline
#29 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
Very true funjohnny, and that is Alan Keyes Point and my Point exactly... you saying you could care less.... those two words together is why this nation has taken the route that it has now today... Careless, look at this misc. board for example...it used to be when a man gave you his word it was like writen in Stone... and agreements used to be made over handshakes...
nowadays folks don't even trust their own family members let alone, Like here Brothers of the leaf...
everyone ready to pinch the other guy's head off over feeble arguments on these boards.. then we all go to bed wake up the next morning and forget about issues that happened the day before...

The soul foundation of Trust, Morals and Ethics are all being eroded away one stone monument at a time!!!
and what Billy had said and also what Alan Keyes pointed out in that article... pretty soon it could become a dictatorship because people are so caught up in their day to day activities they get the feeling of Caring Less.... then pretty soon there isn't enough folks who are going to Care Less and that is when We the People lose all our Alianable (sp) Rights!!!

just my 5.55 cents worth..

Hog
funjohnny19 Offline
#30 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 74
Hog - Like I said, I see your point. I even agree with you. Morals, trust and ethics have changed over the years, and it hasn't been for the better. But me saying "I could care less" has nothing to do with that. My attitude is such that I can argue a point, state my opinion and that's that. That's the best part about this country, everyone is entitled that freedom. In reality, if you wanted to erect a hunk of stone displaying something you stand for, then I commend you for doing that. Hell, I'd even help you set it up if it meant that much to you!! But being a public official, he can't erect that monument in a public facility. Judge Moore is breaking the law and by disregarding a Federal decision, all he is doing is promoting disrespect for the law. He is violating the Alabama Canons of Judicial Ethics, the US Constitution as well as the Alabama Constitution.

Four Federal Judges have said he is wrong. Even if Judge Moore doesn't argee with the courts decision, he still needs to recognize it's authority.

By placing that monument in the rotunda, he has basically (and unintentionally) established a free speech zone. In fact, other groups have recognized this and have contacted Judge Moore requesting permission to erect statues and monuments of their own in that same rotunda. The same rotunda which proudly displays the Ten Commandments monument. You know what? Judge Moore denied their requests. You can't have it both ways. If he wants to display his monument in the rotunda, then everyone and their brother should be afforded that same right. That's what America is about.

The order send down on Judge Moore stated that the statue can constitutionally rest anywhere and send out its religious message anywhere, except on government property such as the courthouse, where it violates the establishment clause.

If he disagrees....fine. He should resign his post and become a private citizen. But while he is in his job, he is bound by oath to enforce the law. America's freedom of religion forbids any group of believers to use government to impose their faith on others. It doesn't get any clearer than that. The government can't tell you what gods to worship, or whether to worship any. That's freedom of religion.

Judge Moore is a demagogue - plain and simple.

funjohnny19
usahog Offline
#31 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
Funjohnny, I also see your view on this issue.. it has been great debating the issue with you!!!

here's one to keep an eye on also
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/D?d108:26:./temp/~bdf3fC:@@@L&summ2=m&

it will be interesting to see what happens when Congress recoviens on this issue...

Hog
usahog Offline
#32 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
Oh I forgot to add the Summary of the Bill

SUMMARY AS OF:
2/13/2003--Introduced.
Requires the Ten Commandments to be prominently posted for display in the chambers of the House of Representatives and the Senate.


Hog
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#33 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
usahog

"the US Supreme court has Infringed on the States Rights!!!"""

straenvducumen. they haven't done that since they overturned the florida state supreme cou



jdrabinski Offline
#34 Posted:
Joined: 08-16-2002
Posts: 794
Nice point, Rick! Where were these state's rights folks then, huh?

John
usahog Offline
#35 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
But Rick... Who is the Whinner who took it straight up to the US Supreme Court??? because he Lost his Battle in the Florida States Supreme Court System?

Bingo!!!!

Hog
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