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Last post 20 years ago by usahog. 23 replies replies.
FLY THE FLAG, GO TO JAIL update
65gtoman Offline
#1 Posted:
Joined: 06-12-2003
Posts: 858
Freedom of Expression: Flag Must Come Down Soon, Judge Says

"A Henrico County man who was sued by his community's homeowners association in 1999 after putting up two temporary flagpoles must take down the current pole this month, a judge ordered.

Judge L.A. Harris Jr. of the Henrico County Circuit Court set a March 1 deadline for Richard Oulton, a resident of Wyndham, a planned community northwest of Richmond that requires residents to seek permission to erect structures not addressed in the community covenants.

When Oulton, a 58-year-old lawyer and Vietnam veteran, applied to put up the flagpoles, the request was denied. Wyndham rules specifically allow flagpoles attached to homes. Oulton has said his home would dwarf the smaller flag such a pole could hold.

The case began in 1999, and Harris initially ruled on the case in June 2001. Oulton appealed to the Virginia and U.S. Supreme Courts, both of which declined to hear his case.

In his recent action, Harris further ordered Oulton to appear in court March 28 in the event that he and his wife and co-defendant, Ava, do not remove the flagpole. The judge could declare them in contempt of court and could send them to jail, according to Wyndham's attorney Stephen Moriarty.

'My wife and I would probably be the first people in the history of the country incarcerated for refusing to take down the American flag on land they own,' Oulton said." (Metro in Brief, Washington Post, February 3, 2003)


usahog Offline
#2 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
GTO I'm not sure but I think I posted a follow-up on this one on one of these Threads???

it may have been a Florida Case very simular to this one though... Not sure now???

but they got to keep their flag pole and flag flying...

Hog
65gtoman Offline
#3 Posted:
Joined: 06-12-2003
Posts: 858
WAKE UP AMERICA
65gtoman Offline
#4 Posted:
Joined: 06-12-2003
Posts: 858
hog, i think there is a few cases
usahog Offline
#5 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
was there a follow-up to this one after the March deadline??

I'll try and pull up the other thread also to double check..

Hog
usahog Offline
#6 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
Yep two seprate cases...

Hog
65gtoman Offline
#7 Posted:
Joined: 06-12-2003
Posts: 858
I never can seem to find what im looking for on these computers. There is one I heard on the Sean hannity show 2weeks ago (sean with going to raise money because the man was about to have his house taken from him) this was a single flag pole incident, and the man was being fined everyday.

I can’t seem to find that one. But whats really nuts is that this is happening all of America.
65gtoman Offline
#8 Posted:
Joined: 06-12-2003
Posts: 858
over
65gtoman Offline
#9 Posted:
Joined: 06-12-2003
Posts: 858
Marine Veteran's Fight to Fly the American Flag Becomes National Issue
Phil Brennan, NewsMax.com
Tuesday, Sept. 16, 2003
PALM BEACH COUNTY, Fla. – Embattled former Marine George Andres, threatened with the loss of his home because of his refusal to stop flying the American flag, can breathe easier, thanks to Sean Hannity.
His homeowners association is threatening to foreclose on his house to collect legal expenses and fines it says he owes because of his defiance of association’s orders to remove his flagpole.

Hannity assured Andres on Friday night’s "Hannity & Colmes" show that he would raise the $25,000 Andres needs to pay the claim and promised to contribute the first $5,000 out of his own pocket. Moreover, he promised to raise more money to buy and install a second flagpole on the property.

Andres has attracted nationwide attention and the praise of scores of his fellow Americans for his courage in refusing to back down on his determination to proudly display Old Glory 24 hours a day. Gov. Jeb Bush visited Andres' Jupiter home last year on Flag Day and later signed a law that allows Florida residents to fly an American flag "in a respectful manner" regardless of busybodies' rules.

Bush has sent state Attorney General Charlie Crist to assist Adres by arguing that the former Marine’s home is constitutionally protected under the state's homestead law from foreclosure by a homeowners association.

Circuit Judge Edward Fine, who had earlier approved a foreclosure, agreed in May to reconsider his order. Two weeks ago, however, Fine rejected Crist’s homestead argument and found the association had a right to file a lien.

A foreclosure sale is scheduled for Oct. 9, but Andres' attorney has filed an appeal. Andres told NewsMax.com that Crist was also appealing. Under Florida's homestead law, a homeowner’s residence cannot be taken by foreclosure except to collect back taxes or mortgages, or bills owed contractors for work on the home.

What Happened

In an interview with NewsMax, Andres explained: "I went before the board of the homeowners association four years ago and asked for permission to put the American flag on a pole, and the board gave me permission because the state of Florida had a law that was written in 1995 that said homeowners associations are prohibited from banning the flying of the American flag regardless of any rules and regulations or bylaws except for size, safety and location which must be adopted into the bylaws.

"I put the flagpole up, and seven months later a new board came in and ruled that I had violated the homeowners statutes on the flag, and I said, ‘What homeowners statute?’ They said the one that says that you have to fly the flag from your building. I asked them, ‘Where does it say that?’

"The fact is there is nothing in the homeowners documents that say where or when and state law prohibits them from saying any such thing.

"They took me into court, and they got a judge who said that I was guilty of violating the homeowners documents for flying the American flag on a flagpole. He said that it made no difference what the state law said, the homeowners documents counted. But they never found the place in the documents where it said where to put the flag."

Andres said he appealed, but the appeals court affirmed the first judge’s ruling, and five or six months later "they took us into foreclosure, and because of the homestead law, which is very clear that the only thing they can foreclose on is for taxes, mortgages or contractors' liens. The homeowners association was, however, using legal fees and fines, which does not come under the provisions of the law.

"At that point the attorney general stepped in to defend the homestead law, which is 130 years old. The judge had taken away the foreclosure order at that time, so we had another hearing before the judge five weeks ago. We explained that we were homesteaded in 1989 and all the time that this was going on. The judge said it wasn’t clear that we were homesteaded.

"The attorney general told me yesterday that the judge was in error because first of all he said that there was no such thing as Title 36 US 10. I have now sent the judge a copy of that law."

Andres cited a ruling by the U.S. Supreme Court that says anything you do on your private property – signs, flags, and anything like that - is an expression of your feelings and is covered under the First Amendment of the Constitution. The judge doesn’t want to hear that either.

"Right now the attorney general has stepped in because they want to protect the homestead law and the state’s statutes on flying the flag. So right now my attorney Barry Silver and Attorney General Charlie Crist are readying an appeal."

The homeowners association refused to talk to NewsMax.

No matter what the outcome of the appeal, this courageous veteran can be sure he won’t lose his home for flying the American flag, thanks to Sean Hannity. And the homeowners association can look foreward to continuing to learn what many of America’s enemies learned the hard way: what it’s like to go head to head with a U.S. Marine.

Semper Fi, George.

65gtoman Offline
#10 Posted:
Joined: 06-12-2003
Posts: 858
$25,000 HA, i swear!!!

65gtoman Offline
#11 Posted:
Joined: 06-12-2003
Posts: 858
was there a follow-up to this one after the March deadline??


Hog I cant seem to find anymore info on the first one (Richard Oulton) but im not really good at finding anything on the net, im sure somebody on here will find something. Ill keep looking

usahog Offline
#12 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
I'll search it and get back to you on it GTO...
I also bumped the post to the one I was refering to..

Hog
usahog Offline
#13 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=Henrico+County+Circuit+Court+Richard+Oulton&ei=UTF-8&fr=fp-top&n=20&fl=0&x=wrt

Hog
usahog Offline
#14 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
http://www.prweb.com/releases/2002/11/prweb49843.htm

IMPORTANT….. BAN ON US FLAG CASE
The US Supreme Court denied the Writ of Certiorari in the case of “Wyndham verses Richard and Ava Oulton”. November 7, 2002 Background: It was on July 4th 1999 that the Wyndham American Flag case first became a news story after the developer of Wyndham denounced the American Flag atop Oulton’s flag pole as a “Visual Nuisance” that if allowed to stand and fly could threaten property values in the upscale Wyndham community. Wyndham is a 1,600 home planned community in Western Henrico which was developed by HH Hunt of Blacksburg, VA. Richard Oulton is a combat-wounded veteran of service with “The Walking Dead Marines of the 1st Battalion, Ninth Marine Regiment. In Viet-Nam his battalion, with a typical strength of 800 men, endured the longest sustained combat and the highest battalion casualty rate to unit strength of any battalion in the history of the US Marines. From June 1965 to August 1969 “the dead” suffered Marines killed in combat in 48 of those 51 months. There are 605 names of “Walking Dead Marines” on the Viet Nam Memorial Wall for a unit strength Killed in Action “KIA” rate of 76%. Ava Oulton’s family was driven from their home by war with the communists. She came to America at age 12. Two of the Oulton’s three children were adopted as orphans from China. All the Oulton’s are proud Americans.

Henrico Court ruling:
In June 2001 Judge Harris of the Henrico Circuit courts upheld with the Wyndham assessment of the American Flag atop Oulton’s pole as a “Visual Nuisance” and ordered the flag and pole to be toppled. Judge Harris awarded $88,858 in damages to Wyndham and set an appeal bond of $95,000 if the Oulton’s were to be allowed to appeal his decision. The bond included $6,142 for the cost reimbursement to the Henrico County police for the forced police toppling of the pole and American Flag. Finally included was money for a bulldozer to make the job easier for the Henrico Police and for a dump truck to remove both, presumably to the nearby Henrico dump.

US Supreme Court Petition
The decision of Judge Harris was appealed to the US Supreme Court as a petition for a Writ of Certiorari. The petition was filed on August 19, 2002. To discuss this with Oulton or to obtain faxed copies of the Oulton petition and/or of the September 25, 2002 filed brief of the Wyndham Foundation in opposition call Oulton at: office 747-1777 or cell: 334-6978

The Writ: A petition in Writ of Certiorari is not an appeal of the merits of the case.
It is instead simply a request for the highest Federal Court to accept an appeal. The US Supreme Court considered 252 Writs of Certiorari on November 1st. Of these 252 cases a Writ of Certiorari was denied in 247 of the cases. It is typical that of every hundred Petitions in Writ of Certiorari that only one or two, if any, will be accepted by the US Supreme Court.

Why was the case appealed to the US Supreme Court?
As the US Supreme Court is the highest court of the land, the Oulton’s felt that they owed it to all Americans to carry the fight to fly our American Flag to the highest court of our land. They did this knowing that it was highly unlikely that the Writ of Certiorari would be accepted by the court.

What is Next?
On Veteran’s day the Oultons will host the 4th annual Veteran’s Day picnic will be held at the Oulton’s house. This is, as always, free to any one that elects to honor our veterans by attending. Note that the picnic is from 3:30 to Sunset on Sunday November 10th. The event will conclude with a 21 rifle salute and bugler “Taps” and flag retreat ceremony at sunset by the Memorial Rifles of The American Legion Post 84. The event is scheduled for Sunday November 10th to avoid any conflicts with traditional November 11th Veteran’s Day ceremonies.


What will follow in the Courts?
The Oulton’s have filed a suit that is based on the defenses that Judge Harris refused to hear. This case seeks $300,000 in compensatory damages and $1,000,000 in punitive damages. Judge Harris took Oulton’s important defenses and refused to hear them stating that the defenses needed be heard in a separate trial as they complicated the case too much. Recall, that Judge Harris announced just prior to the long promised jury trial that there would not be a jury as he would not be bound by the jury’s verdict so why bother? Harris stated that he could overturn the jury anyway so he said that there was no point in having a jury decides the facts.

Is it likely that Oulton will win and that the American Flag will continue to fly?
If the judge allows the case to be heard before a jury it is likely that the American Flag will prevail. Judge Harris’ reasoning is taking the first American Flag case away from a jury just before the trial raised many still unanswered questions.

Will the American Flag and pole be toppled as ordered by Judge Harris?
As you know Judge Harris budgeted $6,142 for the possible cost of a police guarded toppling and disposal of the pole and American Flag. He specified that this money was for Henrico Police Department reimbursement and for the cost of a bulldozer and dump truck to remove the pole and flag (presumably to the nearby Henrico dump). Judge Harris allowed the pole and flag to be undisturbed during the past year and a half as his ruling went through appeals. As Harris, said the defenses needed to be tried separately, it is likely that he will continue to allow the American Flag to fly through the current cases and appeals if any are needed.

Many thought this was ended when the “Wyndham Flag Bill” became the law of Virginia. What Happened?
Yes, the 2000 session of the General Assembly passed the “Wyndham Flag Law” by a vote of 140 to 0 and the Governor signed it into law. It said that any homeowner association restrictions on flying the American Flag or on poles to fly it were void and unenforceable unless they were specified in the rules at the time of purchase. Oulton’s “rules” (all over 200 pages of them) never mentioned the words “flag” or ‘flag pole”. In spite of the clear statutory mandate, Judge Harris ruled that the “Wyndham Flag Law” did not apply to Wyndham.

Do you have other cases with Wyndham? What about the Henrico Circuit Court jury verdict of October 30th?
Tell us about possible future cases?
After the Oultons were denied a promised membership in The Dominion Country Club they sued the club. The Dominion Club is owned by the developer of Wyndham. Oulton asked for damages of only $2,640 as the case involved only a promised, then denied, membership in The Dominion Club. In spite of the less significant right that was violated, the jury awarded a unanimous verdict of $20,600 which was eight times more than the Oultons had sought.

In the Wyndham Flag case which again defends the right to proudly fly the American Flag, the Oultons are not asking for $2,640 damages. In the American Flag case they are seeking $1,300,000 in compensatory and punitive damages.


Sad Day In America!!!

Hog
65gtoman Offline
#15 Posted:
Joined: 06-12-2003
Posts: 858
Richard Oulton is a combat-wounded veteran of service with “The Walking Dead Marines of the 1st Battalion, Ninth Marine Regiment. In Viet-Nam his battalion, with a typical strength of 800 men, endured the longest sustained combat and the highest battalion casualty rate to unit strength of any battalion in the history of the US Marines. From June 1965 to August 1969 “the dead” suffered Marines killed in combat in 48 of those 51 months. There are 605 names of “Walking Dead Marines” on the Viet Nam Memorial Wall for a unit strength Killed in Action “KIA” rate of 76%


Let’s take this guys house and throw him in jail for having a flag.....

This is just sickening…

you better wake up America!
plabonte Offline
#16 Posted:
Joined: 09-11-2000
Posts: 2,131
With the risk of seeming unamerican. They didn't ask him to take down his flag. They asked him to take down a flag pole. Are there no other options for displaying a flag other then a free standing flag pole?

My neighbor has a free standing flag pole. There is some metal I'm guessing on the string used to pull the flag up and down. On a windy day it the metal bands against the pole and it sounds like a ringing bell. Very annoying when you are trying to sleep and impossible to sleep with the windows open.
usahog Offline
#17 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
he could have attached the Flag Pole to the House and then it would have been acceptable..

Plabonte you are correct at the annoyance (sp) of the Pullies on the ropes to the flag pole... but so isn't gun fire annoying... the City came by and removed a Tree last year from my front yard... I am going to (when I can afford it) errect a 40 ft flag pole... I'm going to send a Flag with my Nephew overseas and have him carry it through his Tour.. and then I am going to fly that flag in my Front Yard on the Pole...

sometimes Freedoms can be Annoying... It's the Price we have to live with!!! or Die For!!!!

Hog
plabonte Offline
#18 Posted:
Joined: 09-11-2000
Posts: 2,131
Thats what I was wondering Hog. Why couldn't he attach the pole to the side of his house.

There are lots of annoying things in the neighborhood. The clanging flagpole, barking dogs, cars with loud stereos, young kids yelling and crying. All a part of living in the suburbs. All something you must learn to live with or move to the country. I was just trying to point out that there could be a reason why a flag pole would not be allowable in that individuals neighborhood.
65gtoman Offline
#19 Posted:
Joined: 06-12-2003
Posts: 858
Fact is, that the people next door and near him didn’t have any problem with the flag. (In the FOX interview he stated)

usahog Offline
#20 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
I know you were plabonte, the thing about the whole artical is because of the area he lived in has a Covenence (sp) for what can be in the subdivision.. I read where it stated it was alright to fly the flag from a pole attached to the house.. so to remidy the whole thing I would have Anchored the Pole to the house even though it would Tower over the house no one could bitch... and if they tried to change the ruling by saying a certian size pole... well then his would be grandfathered in before the clause took effect!!!!

there are Laws and then there are loopholes around them ... in this case he did not read or was fighting the system to the laws of the Covenence inacted...

either way a Veteran should not be shunned... I am still reading the rest of the storys off the yahoo link I posted above...

Hog
usahog Offline
#21 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
I for one would not live in a subdivision where they have their own laws and guidlines to how you are to live your life... it's bad enough being in the city and knowing what you can and cannot do...

my dream place of residence would be 100 acres with a 3/4 mile long driveway and a speaker system in my front yard an American Flag Proudly Waving and also a M1 A1 Tank Turriot mounted and loaded...No Silicitation sign at the entrence of the driveway.. and another sing reading "you should call before you stop by" I will one day have this!!!!

Hog
plabonte Offline
#22 Posted:
Joined: 09-11-2000
Posts: 2,131
I think the theory behind the covenances is to keep property values from dropping. If you live in a nice neighborhood for instance you don't want the guy across the street to have 10 cars on blocks in his yard. If you have a nice view from your back window you don't want someone to be able to errect a large storage building that blocks that view.

A co-worker and her neighbors went to court because someone was building a prefabricated home in the neighborhood which was not allowed. It was a really crappy looking structure and not something you want to live next to.

plabonte Offline
#23 Posted:
Joined: 09-11-2000
Posts: 2,131
Just re read my post and just wanted to add that I don't think an American flag being flown would decrease the value. Just that that is the theory in enacting restrictions.

The first case is interesting because the guy was given permission and then the new board said no. But the story is definately written from the Veteran's cause point of view. I'm wondering what the homeowner's association's arguement and legal stance was.
usahog Offline
#24 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
"homeowner's association's arguement and legal stance was."
That we will probably never know!!!

also reading on I seen that also Plabonte... and yes I know why the enact the rules in these places but as you stated you couldn't see an American Flag bringing down the Value of the area... I could not either...

now if he had a Ladder shoved in the ground and a flag hanging from it.. well maybe LoL

Hog
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