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ACLU
usahog Offline
#51 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
"you cannot be prosecuted in this country for your ideas"
If your Ideas are into and Promoting Child Molestation and Practices such as... you better hope the Cops get ya before I do!!! Prosecuted wouldn't be the word used!!!

Hog
Tobasco Offline
#52 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2003
Posts: 2,809
Hog
I think a rope & and a strong tree would work for me.

Mag
usahog Offline
#53 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
Nope.. Put their Head in the Shoot and grab the bull clamps... then swab their privates down with mothers milk and leave em tied to a tree for a weaning Calf to finish off!!!!

Hog
Tobasco Offline
#54 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2003
Posts: 2,809

Ok...hehehehe!!!

Mag
tailgater Offline
#55 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
John, I hope your comment was intended to create a fuss rather than to describe your position.
To compare religious fanatics from ANY religion to perverts who molest children is not misguided; it's idiotic.

If you were serious, I not only feel sorry for you, but also for your family and friends.
This is not a personal attack, but rather an observation made to a comment seemingly intended to instigate.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
65gtoman Offline
#56 Posted:
Joined: 06-12-2003
Posts: 858
He condemned America, so why wouldn’t you think he promotes child molesting too.
sketcha Offline
#57 Posted:
Joined: 03-26-2003
Posts: 3,238
$hit hog, that's good! Remind me not to ever piss you off.

P.S. I knew you couldn't stay away long. Good to have you back.
timhampton Offline
#58 Posted:
Joined: 10-03-2003
Posts: 166
NAMBLA –"No Animals May Be Left Alive." And they are animals. I would cut their throats like pigs after they begged me to kill them. And they would beg. Send them to me. No need to pay 45 thousand dollars a year per prisoner in taxpayers money to house them.

Tim
choner Offline
#59 Posted:
Joined: 02-04-2003
Posts: 876
I think this is one of those squabbles that Steve has been talking about that have potential for trouble. But just want to say to keep it civil, it looks okay so far, but close to the edge though.

My two cents on the ACLU. I do not like the fact that they are supporting NAMBLA, I think its sick. But saying that the ACLU is unnecessary is ridiculous. No free speech trial had been won until the ACLU got involved. In 1944 the ACLU won the case in which it allowed blacks to vote in the primaries. It also helped allow teaching of evolution in classrooms. Jehovah’s Witness are allowed to print and distribute their pamphlets because the ACLU fought for their right to the press. The ACLU was involved in the case that ended segragation in schools. It was the ACLU who strongly opposed the Japanese concentration camps during World War II. The ACLU help lift the ban on James Joyce's mstgerpiece "Ulyssess". The Supreme Court held that a prosecutor could not use peremptory challenges to disqualify potential jurors based on their gender, with the help of the ACLU. In 1997 the "1996 Communications Act" banning “indecent” speech was found to violate First Amendment rights with the ACLU's help.

I don't support everything the ACLU does, but it is a very necessary organization, like the NRA which supports your rights to bear arms.

I'm sorry to write too much, and some are cut and paste, but I just needed to state that without the help of the ACLU, I might not be able to be on these boards with the rest of you, since I am a minority.

choner
jdrabinski Offline
#60 Posted:
Joined: 08-16-2002
Posts: 794
Tailgater,

My point was unclear, I guess. I meant to say that, just because you fiercely object to an organization, that does not mean that you want them eliminated or their right to exist taken.

Right-wing Christians do a lot of terrible things, in my mind. Not NAMBLA, but also far from innocent. They want to impose their religion on my civic life, my child's schools, they shoot abortion doctors, and generally advocate positions that have led to my country becoming more and more backward. So I have deep, deep objections to their agenda. That does not, and will never, mean that I want their right to exist as an organization taken away. That was my point.

John
65gtoman Offline
#61 Posted:
Joined: 06-12-2003
Posts: 858
Right-wing Christians shoot abortion doctors) I swear this is totally insane.

What about the evil left wing ripping babies out of the womb and selling the bodies to research companies.

Where do you come up with this crap, “the aclu is fighting for the conservatives too, case: kkk march”. LOL
You’re a nut man… we talked about this on a another post, I think homebrew made a good point that there is good and bad in all party’s.

What about the aclu fighting for the right, for an Islam teacher to wear a berka in the schools. And at the same time condemning a white teacher for wearing a small cross around her neck….


I got some big new for some of you, YOU DON’T HAVE TO BE WHITE TO BE A RACIST!!


tailgater Offline
#62 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
Thank you.

But you're wrong about the Religious right.
True, they oppose any abortion. And true, the misguided lowlifes who shoot abortion doctors claim to be associated with the far right.
But their agenda is NOT to kill the doctors. They want to preserve life, not eliminate it.
Claiming that the Religious Right want to kill abortion doctors is akin to claiming all Muslims want Americans dead.
It is simply not true.

As for them "pushing" their religious agenda on you, I think you're missing the point.
Religion, TRUE religion, is and should be a very personal thing. But look at the schools nowadays:
Kids are more worried about surviving than studying. More concerned with dodging bullets and drugs than studying Math or Science.
The premise of a school prayer is not intended to convert unbelievers. It is an opportunity to put life into perspective, and to be thankful for the things we do have.
You can argue that it doesn't belong in school, and you could make some very strong points. But the fact is nobody is looking to convert you from the classroom pulpit.

Disagreeing with their agenda is far different from looking to abolish child molestors. There is no way to convince me that a would-be rapist has the same rights to freedom of speech as a peace loving religious zealot.
We're not dealing with theoreticals here. This is reality. And NAMBLA deserves a heavy dose of reality: All the way to their graves.
jdrabinski Offline
#63 Posted:
Joined: 08-16-2002
Posts: 794
"They want to preserve life, not eliminate it."

The death penalty? I also think you underestimate the Christian right-wing's war on abortion doctors. It is widespread and grotesque.

"The premise of a school prayer is not intended to convert unbelievers. It is an opportunity to put life into perspective, and to be thankful for the things we do have."

I think you are mistaken if you think that's what a prayer moment in school would mean. Don't you remember being in grade school and on? That's how adults deal with things. Kids will goof off.

Do you ever think about how much time, accumulated, this will take out of the school year? Add up the 'minute' of silence/prayer, the time taken to both get to the 'minute' and transition out of it, and you have a substantial amount of time over a year.

I'd rather it be spent on multiplication tables.

"peace loving religious zealot"

Where is the peace-love in the Christian right-wing? They are the most angry, oppressive, destructive group out there...not a whole lot of peace in their rhetoric or in their invasion into MY life. Leave me alone!

I never equivocated NAMBLA with CRWs. I tried to point that out.

The KKK and other white supremacist groups...do you think they should be dismantled and banned? Their agenda is the harrassment and murder of non-white, non-Christian people. Pretty much ALL bad. Can't think of a good thing the KKK stands for. Why not target them? Their membership is A LOT bigger than NAMBLA.

John
tailgater Offline
#64 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185

I also think the KKK is evil. As are serial killers, rapists, wife beaters and child abusers. I'm sure I've missed a few.

But does that mean that I should NOT point out the blatant misuse of power by the ACLU when defending child killers?

You choose the wrong positions to stand firm on. Just because the KKK is bad, doesn't mean I can't attack another evil group.

Why do you hate the religious right so much?
How have they FORCED their beliefs on YOU?
Individual circumstances do not reflect the whole.

Why are you so impressionable that you feel the religious right is encroaching on your rights? When a Jehova Witness comes to my door, it's an inconvenience but it's not a dastardly deed worthy of hatred.

Deal with it. Refuse it if you so choose. But don't play the victim.
Although that IS the liberal way...
jdrabinski Offline
#65 Posted:
Joined: 08-16-2002
Posts: 794
tailgater,

The religious right is encroaching on our lives and you know it. Don't be coy. They want prayer in schools, religion in government, ban on abortion rights, declare the war on terrorism a 'religious war,' and many other examples. All of these are in my life. All impact my life. None of them are merely a matter of private views. That's why I am concerned.

I don't think my point about the KKK got through, but it isn't worth pursuing. I don't think you really want to see what I am getting at, so I'll drop it.

John
usahog Offline
#66 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
Did you know...
As you walk up the steps to the Capitol Building which houses the Supreme Court you can see near the top of the building a row of the world's law givers and each one is facing one in the middle who, in turn, is facing forward with a full frontal view - it is Moses with the Ten Commandments!

As you enter the Supreme Court courtroom, the two huge oak doors have the Ten Commandments engraved on each lower portion of each door. In the courtroom, on the wall right above where the Supreme Court judges sit, you can see a display of the Ten Commandments!

There are Bible verses etched in stone all over the Federal Buildings and Monuments in Washington, D.C.

James Madison, the fourth president, known as "The Father of Our Constitution" made the following statement: "We have staked the whole of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."

Patrick Henry, that patriot and Founding Father of our country said, "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists but by Christians, not on religions but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ".

Every session of Congress begins with a prayer by a preacher whose salary has been paid by the taxpayer since 1777.

Fifty-two of the 55 founders of the Constitution were members of the established orthodox churches in the colonies.

Thomas Jefferson worried that the Courts would overstep their authority, and instead of interpreting the law would begin making law an oligarchy, the rule of few over many.



The very first Supreme Court Justice, John Jay, said, "Americans should select and prefer Christians as their rulers."

How then, have we gotten to the point that everything we have done for 200 years in this country is now suddenly wrong and unconstitutional?

God Bless..!!
Hog
jdrabinski Offline
#67 Posted:
Joined: 08-16-2002
Posts: 794
Did you know--

that we are not a theocracy?

John
usahog Offline
#68 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
"The religious right is encroaching on our lives and you know it. Don't be coy. They want prayer in schools, religion in government, ban on abortion rights, declare the war on terrorism a 'religious war,' and many other examples. All of these are in my life. All impact my life. None of them are merely a matter of private views. That's why I am concerned."

It was Here in America Long before your were a twinkle in your Daddy's Eye...but yet you alone here John want it removed because it's an encroachment on your life..
ever consider taking up residence in France?

Bush Signed the ban on Partial birth abortions... and you can go look at your newly God Given Son and Love him like many others love their Children...

Religious War.. BS thats what Osama, Saddam and the Liberals want to call it!!! it's a war on Terrorism and when you can figure out what the terminology of terrorism is post it here... you seem to be fitting the guidelines!!!!

Hog
usahog Offline
#69 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
"that we are not a theocracy?"
No John that above is FACT cold hard Facts!!!!

no theory to it!!!!

Hog
jdrabinski Offline
#70 Posted:
Joined: 08-16-2002
Posts: 794
usahog, why don't YOU move?

Note: France is a VERY religious country. Long-standing church-state relations that you would find satisfying. So it seems a better place for YOU to move.

Love it or leave it. That is SO TIRED! I have just as much of a right to be here as you, and to agitate for change. We are a free and open society. Sorry, you can't drive out ideas in a free and open society...you'll just have to accept that I (and millions of others just like me) am here to stay. We'll have to learn to live together.

John
Tobasco Offline
#71 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2003
Posts: 2,809

Great post Hog!

This references to God that Hogs post listed isnt some kind of accident. Our founders recognized God as 'real', and now the minority want to strip away every shred of evidence that God exists.

Why is this country catering to the minority in this matter? In things we vote for, majority rules. There should be proposition on the Presidential ballot to address this...just my opinion...

Mag

PS: I do believe that all religions, not just Christianity, should have more rights to be recognized. God, if represented like in the Pledge, should not be considered religion specific.
tailgater Offline
#72 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
"they want prayer in school"
Actually, prayer WAS in school for quite some time. Only recently has it been taken away.

"Religion in government"
Again, there was much more religion "in" government back when our founding fathers put things in motion. I don't see them fighting to put it in, so much as they're fighting to keep certain details in place.

Abortion?
Don't get me started. I'm conservative and Christian, but FAR from being from the religious right. I see abortion as murder, but not for religious reasons. I see it as murder from a scientific viewpoint. The heart was beating, and now it isn't. That doesn't mean it should be illegal, but the friggin liberals won't be happy until drive through abortion clinics will become commonplace and government funded. but excuse me for "forcing" my values on you.

"relgious war"
Are you ****ting me? When Islamic extremists fly aircraft into building in the name of their "allah" or whoever they pray to, then THEY are attempting to make it a religious war. The fact that a few right wingers may agree does not a battle cry make.

And as for the Klan, no I don't see where you were going with that. Perhaps you could start a new thread. One that we could actually agree on: the KKK is evil and should be ended.

Either way, I still don't see how you've been adversely affect by the religious right. It's simply a large group who want their views considered. Voicing their desires is not "Forcing" anything on you, as you suggest.

Personally, I'd rather follow their moral values than those of any group who feel NAMBLA has a right to do what they do.

jdrabinski Offline
#73 Posted:
Joined: 08-16-2002
Posts: 794
Mike, we 'cater' to the minority because simple majority rule/domination is a form of tyranny. That's why we have constitutional principles.

Tailgater, 'voicing' opinions is one thing. But that is a precursor to changing laws in this case. And those changes would be terrible for our country.
usahog Offline
#74 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
"Tailgater, 'voicing' opinions is one thing. But that is a precursor to changing laws in this case. And those changes would be terrible for our country."

Remember you said that John... because your exactly right.. the Laws are already there for it to remain "In God We Trust" "Under God" and its people like you who want those LAWS Removed So YOu and your like are the one's Violating and Infringing on the rest of these United States with your Trumped up Poor Me Bull****!!!!!

why don't you try a life in China John they don't like Christians there and you'd fit right in with your Idealogy!!!

Hog
Tobasco Offline
#75 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2003
Posts: 2,809

John, I understand making sure the minority doesnt get screwed. But this subject cant ruin someones life. The government has overreacted. Now on many issues, it seems like the minority gets its way. How can this possibly be fair?

Mag
Tobasco Offline
#76 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2003
Posts: 2,809

John, I think you are making this a life or death topic. It is only 1 of dozens of important issues to deal with in life. Some go your way, some dont.

You may be in the majority, in the next topic of discussion. An average person wont be on the minority of every subject.

If someone is in the minority, on just about every topic discussed. Maybe that person should re-evaluate his/her positions.

Mag
tailgater Offline
#77 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
John,
Why is it when the liberal "Voice" their opinion, that's freedom of speech, but when conservatives do it it's a dangerous precursor?

Interested to hear your reply.
jdrabinski Offline
#78 Posted:
Joined: 08-16-2002
Posts: 794
Mike,

I am debating this topic because it is open and live. I know there are many other huge issues. We'll move on to the, I'm sure! lol!

Sometimes the minority is right, Mike. Think about the civil rights movement, which I assume we all think was good and right. Very few southern whites supported black southerners. But it was the right thing to do, even though it was a very minoritarian position to hold.

Also, this bbs is especially far right in its politics. The views here do not very well express the nation's views as a whole. After all, Gore did get more votes than Bush. No, I am not reopening 'who is the REAL president' type of questions. Merely pointing out that this country is more liberal than you might think. So I don't think I'm much in the minority, frankly.

John
jdrabinski Offline
#79 Posted:
Joined: 08-16-2002
Posts: 794
Tailgater,

I never said the Christian right should not be able to voice their views. I never suggested anything like a violation of their free speech rights. I only said that I think their ideas are dangerous and destructive of this country.

John
tailgater Offline
#80 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
John,
That is not what you said.
You claimed that the voice of the religious right was infringing on you, as a citizen of this country.
You went so far as to compare their presence with that of known child molestors. That they forced their values on you and affected you directly.
You claim they are dangerous simply because they have a strong sense of right vs wrong.

jdrabinski Offline
#81 Posted:
Joined: 08-16-2002
Posts: 794
I never said they were the same as child molesters. Reread what I said.

I do think the Christian right agenda infringes on my rights. I've spelled that out. Not sure how to be more clear about it.

They are dangerous because they want to put their religious values into law, which is a form of religious fascism in my view.

John
tailgater Offline
#82 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
Their "agenda" can not possibly infringe upon your rights.
It's their agenda, not yours.
It doesn't affect you in the least.

Don't be paranoid simply because you disagree with them.
tailgater Offline
#83 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
John,
You can re-read your posts and correct me if I'm wrong, but here's what I gather from what you've stated:

1. You support the right of NAMBLA (child molestors) to exist as an organized entity based on "freedom of speech".

2. You strongly oppose the Relgious Right from using freedom of speech to make known their beliefs and values.

That is what you have stated.

jdrabinski Offline
#84 Posted:
Joined: 08-16-2002
Posts: 794
yes to #1. not happy about it, but it's the price of freedom.

no to #2. i'd never oppose the right of a group to speak. i just hope to god (ironic, yes) that they are unsuccessful in their agenda.
Sylance Offline
#85 Posted:
Joined: 06-19-2003
Posts: 592
It must suck to think that when you die, you die. It must suck to think there isn’t a God who loves you. I must suck to think the world is a better place without God.

It must suck to be faithless…

eleltea Offline
#86 Posted:
Joined: 03-03-2002
Posts: 4,562
Verily, it sucketh.
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