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Last post 20 years ago by Gene363. 29 replies replies.
Allah or Jesus?
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Gene363 Offline
#1 Posted: Thu, Dec 11 2003, 2:19 PM EST
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,836
This story is thought provoking.

Last month I attended my annual training session that's required for maintaining my state prison security clearance. During the training session there was a presentation by three speakers representing the Roman Catholic, Protestant and Muslim faiths who explained their belief systems. I was particularly interested in what the Islamic Imam had to say.

The Imam gave a great presentation of the basics of Islam complete with a video. After the presentations, time was provided for questions and answers. When it was my turn I directed my question to the Imam and asked: “Please, correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that most Imams and clerics of Islam have declared a holy jihad [Holy war] against the infidels of the world. And, that by killing an infidel, which is a command to all Muslims, they are assured of a place in heaven. If that's the case, can you give me the definition of an infidel?"

There was no disagreement with my statements and without hesitation he replied, "Non-believers!"

I responded, “So, let me make sure I have this straight. All followers of Allah have been commanded to kill everyone who is not of your faith so they can go to heaven. Is that correct?”

The expression on his face changed from one of authority and command to that of a little boy who had just gotten caught with his hand in the cookie jar. He sheepishly replied, “Yes.”

I then stated, “Well, sir, I have a real problem trying to imagine Pope John Paul commanding all Catholics to kill those of your faith or Pat Robertson or Dr. Stanley ordering Protestants to do the same in order to go to heaven!”

The Imam was speechless.

I continued, “I also have problem with being your friend when you and your brother clerics are telling your followers to kill me. Let me ask you a question…would you rather have your Allah who tells you to kill me in order to go to heaven or my Jesus who tells me to love you because I am going to heaven and wants you to be with me?”

You could have heard a pin drop as the Imam hung his head in shame.

Chuck Colson once told me something that has sustained me these 20 years of prison ministry. He said to me, “Rick, remember that the truth will prevail.”

And it will!

-------------------------------------------------------


Rick Mathes and his wife Trish are the founders of Mission Gate Prison Ministries, an outreach to those who are incarcerated and their families in Missouri and Illinois, headquartered here in St. Louis.

Ref: http://www.metrovoice.net/2003/0903_stlweb/0903_columns/mathes_sept_column.html
sketcha Offline
#2 Posted: Thu, Dec 11 2003, 2:46 PM EST
Joined: 03-26-2003
Posts: 3,238
These are facts, pure and simple. Muhammad was a warrior king (prophet?) and the Koran is a warrior's book. I'm sure there are Muslims who wish to live in peace, but I'm certain they are in the minority.

Some will draw parallels to inquisition times with some validity, but modern Christians generally don't advocate that kind of behavior. Islam wants its turn.

If it looks like a duck...
billyjackson Offline
#3 Posted: Thu, Dec 11 2003, 3:28 PM EST
Joined: 08-19-2002
Posts: 2,860
What saddens me is the implication that Pat Robertson and Charles Stanley are righteous heros. My goodness God...Christianity would be much better off without those two around.

***Takes draw off of ISOM Monte #2 as he savors his last taste of sanity before the onslaught of the Christian Right begins...an onslaught that historically has put Islamic jihad to shame.***
Gene363 Offline
#4 Posted: Thu, Dec 11 2003, 3:42 PM EST
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,836
billyjackson,

Care to give an us example of

"Christian Right begins...an onslaught that historically has put Islamic jihad to shame."
billyjackson Offline
#5 Posted: Thu, Dec 11 2003, 3:43 PM EST
Joined: 08-19-2002
Posts: 2,860
No...I'd rather just say something like that and leave the ignorant masses to believe me just because I said it...like Robertson and Stanley do.
billyjackson Offline
#6 Posted: Thu, Dec 11 2003, 3:44 PM EST
Joined: 08-19-2002
Posts: 2,860
Besides, Gene...why should you care what I think?
Homebrew Offline
#7 Posted: Thu, Dec 11 2003, 3:57 PM EST
Joined: 02-11-2003
Posts: 11,885
hmmmmmm,
suddenly the Crusades, and Spanish Inquesition, come to mind, but that had nothing to do with killing non believers did it?
Later
Dave (A.K.A. Homebrew)
Gene363 Offline
#8 Posted: Thu, Dec 11 2003, 4:23 PM EST
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,836
billyjackson,

"Besides, Gene...why should you care what I think?"

Actually, I don't. I was curious to see what you say to back up your statement. Even I can think of a current example.

Homebrew,

"... suddenly the Crusades, and Spanish Inquesition ..."

Give a contemporary example. Crack a history book on the Crusades and Spanish Inquisition, they have little in parallel with the 'religious right.'
billyjackson Offline
#9 Posted: Thu, Dec 11 2003, 4:33 PM EST
Joined: 08-19-2002
Posts: 2,860
Gene,

I judged you...I'm sorry. I assumed since you posted that warm-fuzzy anecdote that you agreed with the positions of the author(s) and the Christian giants mentioned within.

Contemporary examples...the Southern Baptist Convention's official removal from dialogue with Roman Catholicism (couple years ago) basically telling them to go to hell...literally. Also, their continued public statements regarding the evangelism of Jews (basically claiming that they are inferior people), the comment by the SBC president regarding Mohammed's "pedophilia" (fighting words I dare say).

Of course, this limits my response to Sou. Bapt....just happens to be the ones I'm most familiar with. Stanley's a **** (basically took over the church in Atlanta illegally...not to mention being a ****** to his wife).

Furthermore, Christians are worst at killing their own...mostly spiritually and politically...but also literally if one would be allowed to travel back in time just a bit.

But what the hell do I know?
TinMan51 Offline
#10 Posted: Thu, Dec 11 2003, 5:11 PM EST
Joined: 03-06-2003
Posts: 725
Oh boy here i go again opening my big mouth..
I have worked with the Prison Ministrey alot over my 18 years as a prison employee, and I have always dealt with them as I have with every one else of so many different Faiths. That is what ever you beleive is your busniess as long as it does not take away my right or any one's else's to believe in what we choose to believ in, but I have always drwn a line with a faith any faith that tells it's group that it is okay to take another persons life and that the almighty Power that is will reward you for doing so..Other than that I have always felt that what we believe in or whom we bow or neal to talk to is the business of ourselves and should not be empowered in any way on some one else..As for those who have been talked about on the prev. postings I do not defend or condem, I only say that when our time comes we are the ones that have to answer for what we have done in our life time. Believing in this I always wonder what it will be like when it is my time to answer, have I tried my best to protect and serve man kind or have I ignored man kind in favor of some thing easier and more popular with the masses..I have always tried to serve others mostly in the protection fields and have always put others right to life and peace before my own..I only hope that I have chosen right but I will never give away my right to choose nor ask another to give thier right to choose away. I think thats alittle bit of what makes this country a great place to live even with all the different beliefs in every thing. I am by NO means happy with every thing that happens in this country but as every one who lives here I have the right to my belief , and I have always served this country in any way I could or at least my little part of it to give every one else that right also.. I do believe that the 1st posting on this forum was good and I see alot in it. But the worset part of it all is that these people whom do believe in the Killing part of their belief force that onto others whom do not believe that way so that in it's self makes me feel it's wrong..The only time we IMHO have a right to take anothers life is if it is to save another life of an inoccent or our selves. I know I more than likely stired things up again, but it's late I've had a long hard week and I'm trying to relax alittle before heading to bed.. So NO need to start throwing things my way just ignor this Old guy and have a VERY HAPPY HOLIDAY with those you Love. Da TinMan
65gtoman Offline
#11 Posted: Thu, Dec 11 2003, 5:22 PM EST
Joined: 06-12-2003
Posts: 858
what they dont want you to know

THE D.C. SNIPER'S JIHAD


http://nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/13009.htm
usahog Offline
#12 Posted: Thu, Dec 11 2003, 5:31 PM EST
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
While I was deployed back in 1997.. I was talking with one of the Arabs there. he could speak english fairly well. and he was a Suni (sp) Musilum.. he said their Books Differ from the ****ti (sp) one way to tell was the spelling.. Quran was the Original Musilum Bible.. but throughout the years another Koran was written and it was the one that deals with all the bad things that have happened in the recent times... I was curious enough to want to learn more.. and from what I understand this man was right in what he was saying.. if you type in either word in search on yahoo or any other search engine.. you will see both are about the Musilum faith... but both are very different also.. more like our Christian Bibles with the Old and New Testements....

What I do know is they never found the Bones of Jesus.. but they do have the Bones of Mahamad (sp)
they also cannot answer the Questions about the Dead Sea Scrolls and anyone who is a Non Believer can usually answer Biblical Questions better then a forthright born again Christian...

So as TinMan put it.. when it is my Time to go I have to answer to One on my Judgements....

Hog
sketcha Offline
#13 Posted: Thu, Dec 11 2003, 7:28 PM EST
Joined: 03-26-2003
Posts: 3,238
Wake up and smell the blood people! Get your heads out of the sand and recognize the truth. There are many who want you, me and our little babies DEAD!!! and their numbers are growing.

Sweet dreams.
Gene363 Offline
#14 Posted: Fri, Dec 12 2003, 2:32 AM EST
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,836
billyjackson,

No problem at all, and when I said, “Actually I don’t” I didn’t mean to be flip; I really enjoy hearing good arguments in a forum like this.

On the Southern Baptist, , their faith is openly evangelical and they take that seriously, similar to Mormons, the Jehovah Witness etc., which means that in their eyes other religions are inferior. This makes them concerned for the soles that practice ‘inferior’ religions to the extent they go out and proselytize ‘non believers. This tactics can be annoying your front door, may result in hard line releases from religious conventions, but I can’t recall even the hard core religious right advocating killing of nonbelievers, let alone making their bodies into a coupon to heaven.
Gene363 Offline
#15 Posted: Fri, Dec 12 2003, 2:41 AM EST
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,836
Hog & TinMan

You make a good point, religious ‘brand loyalty’ is a tough nut to crack. I think mankind is endowed with Free Will, to good or evil. Everything else we have invented to try and cope with this divine gift.
Cigarick Offline
#16 Posted: Fri, Dec 12 2003, 4:26 AM EST
Joined: 07-28-2002
Posts: 3,078
The Crusades are what happened the last time Islam declared jihad on the infidel.
jdrabinski Offline
#17 Posted: Fri, Dec 12 2003, 4:48 AM EST
Joined: 08-16-2002
Posts: 794
I know, Christians would never advocate killing, say, doctors who provide abortion services. Or use it to justify slavery. Or the killing of Iraqi and Afghani civilians.

Nah. Christians are loving, peaceful, chaste folk. Witness the board where...

...the Christians attack non-conservatives with glee.
...the Christians cheerlead war, glorifying bombings with pictures and death with 'warrior' rhetoric.
...drool all over themselves when a picture of a woman in short shorts or panties is posted.

So you see, billyjackson, that these Christians are deeply committed to the principles of their faith. That is why their cybervoices carry such solemn authority.

INVADE ISLAM!
Steve*R Offline
#18 Posted: Fri, Dec 12 2003, 4:56 AM EST
Joined: 07-23-2001
Posts: 1,858
Personally, I would feel more comfortable if just one American Muslim cleric stepped forward and condemned the attacks of 9/11, and the suicide bombings thoughout the world. Internationally, the mullahs have been silent.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#19 Posted: Fri, Dec 12 2003, 6:06 AM EST
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,498
Pssssst...Johnny you're not the high ground type. Leave your style of "preaching" to the Rev. Jesse Jackson!
JonR Offline
#20 Posted: Fri, Dec 12 2003, 8:28 AM EST
Joined: 02-19-2002
Posts: 9,740
Yo jdrabinski: The only one drooling is you when you receive your welfare check, that is how they pay philosophy teachers ( if one may call a teacher of philosophy a teacher ). Do they actually give credits for philosophy, what a waste of good classroom space. JonR
65gtoman Offline
#21 Posted: Fri, Dec 12 2003, 8:33 AM EST
Joined: 06-12-2003
Posts: 858
God rest ye merry, gentlemen
Let nothing you dismay
Remember, Christ, our Saviour
Was born on Christmas day
To save us all from Satan's power
When we were gone astray.


tonester666 Offline
#22 Posted: Fri, Dec 12 2003, 10:04 AM EST
Joined: 05-07-2003
Posts: 1,324
Gene, which prison do you work at? One of the pay channels did a special on why they hate us. It was very informative. I taped it but loaned out the tape.
Gene363 Offline
#23 Posted: Fri, Dec 12 2003, 11:59 AM EST
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,836
tonester666 said,

"Gene, which prison do you work at?"

I don't, perhaps it was TinMan51 you ment to ask?
billyjackson Offline
#24 Posted: Fri, Dec 12 2003, 12:00 PM EST
Joined: 08-19-2002
Posts: 2,860
JDrabinski,

I hear you (as well as Gene). My point was that though there are no out-right calls for the slaughter of non-Christians (anymore), the tactics used by SOME groups of Christians are no less frightening as far as I can see.

And for the record (as if anyone cares), I love the academic discipline of philosophy. It is at the core of everything we think, believe and do...though it may not (and sometimes should not) be evident. To say that philosophy is a waste of class space and salaries to philosophy profs are "welfare" explicitly and implicitly expresses values...which are a branch of philosophy that appears on every thread on the Misc. board (and the others as well).

But I don't say this to win or lose points from anyone on the board...just my $.02...

But, as usual, what the hell do I know?
Gene363 Offline
#25 Posted: Fri, Dec 12 2003, 12:03 PM EST
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,836
jdrabinski

Merry Merry
Merry Christmas!
Merry Christmas!
Merry Christmas! Merry Christmas!
Merry Christmas! Merry Christmas! Merry Christmas!
Merry Christmas! Merry Christmas! Merry Christmas! Merry Christmas!
Merry Christmas! Merry Christmas! Merry Christmas! Merry Christmas! Merry Christmas!
Merry Christmas! Merry Christmas! Merry Christmas! Merry Christmas!
Merry Christmas! Merry Christmas! Merry Christmas!
Merry Christmas! Merry Christmas!
Merry Christmas!
Merry Christmas!

Merry, Merry, Merry, Merry Christmas!!!!
MDavis Offline
#26 Posted: Fri, Dec 12 2003, 12:40 PM EST
Joined: 11-11-2003
Posts: 94
Anything man does in the name of relgion, other than "love thy neighbor" and "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is probably going to be bad. Man has used religion for some pretty heinous acts.
Gene363 Offline
#27 Posted: Fri, Dec 12 2003, 1:45 PM EST
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,836
MDavis,

Let's extend your way of thinking to something perhaps more familiar. Tobacco can be harmful therefore we assume all tobacco use is bad and say nothing but disparaging things about tobacco, way out of proportion to the facts.

MDavis Offline
#28 Posted: Fri, Dec 12 2003, 2:31 PM EST
Joined: 11-11-2003
Posts: 94
Huh?
jdrabinski Offline
#29 Posted: Fri, Dec 12 2003, 6:24 PM EST
Joined: 08-16-2002
Posts: 794
Gene, was that a diagram of your ****? Get that checked out, dude!
Gene363 Offline
#30 Posted: Fri, Dec 12 2003, 7:14 PM EST
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,836
jdrabinski

Merry Christmas & Happy New Year too, a good time to consider your blessings, spend time with your family, relax, and try to get your mind out of the gutter.
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