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Last post 20 years ago by Cavallo. 31 replies replies.
Illegal Immigrant Mom/Daughter Beaten to Death
Cavallo Offline
#1 Posted:
Joined: 01-05-2004
Posts: 2,796
guess that'll teach those dirty illegals, huh?



Police See Possible Hate Crime in Calif.

By JUSTIN PRITCHARD
Associated Press Writer





FREMONT, Calif. (AP) -- Maria Esperanza Hernandez usually got a ride to her 5 a.m. shift at a nursing home, but this time, she had to walk the four miles through the night. Her daughter was so concerned, she joined her.

They never made it.

Hernandez and her 19-year-old daughter, Maria del Carmen Castillo Hernandez, were bludgeoned to death with a 30-inch-long tree branch Sunday as they walked down a suburban street.

Police searching for a suspect have not ruled out the possibility that the killings were a hate crime because the attacker was described as white and the victims were from Mexico.

"Everything's on the table at this point," Fremont Detective Bill Veteran said Thursday. "We quite frankly just don't have a motive."




Veteran said robbery did not appear to be a motive because of the severity of the beating and the fact the assailant lingered over the body.

There was no evidence of sexual assault, and no one in the women's inner circle is a suspect, police said.

An examination of the weapon may yield more clues, police said.

The daughter was accompanying her 39-year-old mother when a man described as over 6 feet tall and nearly 200 pounds beat them to death, police said.

A witness said he saw the attacker stand over the bodies before fleeing and that a nearby car with three other men watching the attacks sped way.

The mother, who lived in Newark and worked in the laundry, usually got a ride to the nursing home from her boyfriend, but he wasn't available Sunday.

Because the victims were illegal immigrants, they could not have obtained driver's licenses even if they could afford to buy a car. That has become a flashpoint in the case among Hispanics because a law to allow undocumented immigrants apply for licenses was repealed after Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger took office.

"It's a very difficult political situation," said Fily Cuellar, Maria Esperanza Hernandez's nephew and the girl's cousin. "She was not able to get a license, so then they had to walk. And this happened."

Church vigils and a funeral mass were being held Friday in Fremont, a San Francisco Bay-area suburb that's considered one of the nation's safest.

The victims left their home at around 2:30 a.m. While walking, they called a cousin by cell phone to ask for a ride. When the cousin neared the scene shortly before 3 a.m., she called to find out exactly where they were and heard only screams and footfalls before the call went dead, police said.

A witness awakened by their screams spotted the attacker and the three men in the car who drove off, police said.

"There are four people that know what happened that night," Veteran said. "No four people can keep a secret, especially a secret like this."
xibbumbero Offline
#2 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2002
Posts: 12,535
A horrific crime,akin to the Carlie Brucia murder. These types of crimes make me sick. X
Cavallo Offline
#3 Posted:
Joined: 01-05-2004
Posts: 2,796
sorry -- i was being a bit (or a lot) of a smart-a$$ with my comment before this article. crime is crime to me, though. finger-pointing at groups does nothing but put a lot of innocent people under suspicion, and then crap like this happens.

and yeah, x, i agree with you. i've been bumbed all day thinking of ms. brucia and all she must have gone through. i hope they fry the animal.
65gtoman Offline
#4 Posted:
Joined: 06-12-2003
Posts: 858
Also they have no proof that this was a hate crime, or even that it’s a white guy that did this, it’s all here say.

Do you have a link for this story?





xibbumbero Offline
#5 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2002
Posts: 12,535
Does it really matter if it was a white person or not? Violent crimes are committed by the same type person. A sick MF animal. X
rayder1 Offline
#6 Posted:
Joined: 06-02-2002
Posts: 2,226
Don't assume hate crime. It isn't solved yet. I grew up a few miles from where the murder happened. Very quiet older neighborhood. No roving bands of white supremists.

There is more evidence the crime was comitted by someone known to the victims than by anyone else.
rayder1 Offline
#7 Posted:
Joined: 06-02-2002
Posts: 2,226
Here's a link to the original story:
http://www.theargusonline.com/Stories/0,1413,83%257E1968%257E1930291,00.html?search=filter
65gtoman Offline
#8 Posted:
Joined: 06-12-2003
Posts: 858
guess that'll teach those dirty illegals, huh?

The tone of this post was to say that this was a race based crime. After looking at the facts we have on this case I do not see a connection.

Tony is trying to say this is some kind of proof that this is a race based hate crime, but there is no proof of that.

Some people kill only for the thrill of killing and without motive or reason. Some kill only women for twisted reasons. They are many reasons why people kill that have no race based motive behind the killings.


sorry but i look at the facts, not the spin.

choner Offline
#9 Posted:
Joined: 02-04-2003
Posts: 876
I try to stay away from these types of post. But hey, you only live once.

It doesn't matter if its a hate crime or not, it still was viscious and evil. Remember Gtoman, you posted a post that had illegal immigrant beating up someone. And the only reason you posted that up because it involved illegal immigrant doing a crime, if they weren't illegal immigrants, that post wouldn't of been posted. Cavallo is posting this up to prove a point. There are illegal immigrant that are peaceful and some that are violent, just like everyone else, legal or illegal. Don't try to make it seem like illegal aliens are bad because they go around beating people up. It goes both ways, they beat up and they get beaten, just like all us legal folks.

choner
65gtoman Offline
#10 Posted:
Joined: 06-12-2003
Posts: 858
Let me spin this my way.

Over 85% of all violent crime in ca is done by illegals.

Therefore it’s an 85% chance that the ones who did this crime are in fact illegal aliens themselves.
fudge Offline
#11 Posted:
Joined: 12-04-2003
Posts: 444
"Over 85% of all violent crime in ca is done by illegals. "

That sounds like an unlikely percentage, what do you have to back up that figure?
65gtoman Offline
#12 Posted:
Joined: 06-12-2003
Posts: 858
In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) target illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens.

A confidential California Department of Justice study reported in 1995 that 60 percent of the 20,000-strong 18th Street Gang in southern California are illegal aliens.

The leadership of the Columbia Lil’ Cycos gang, which uses murder and racketeering to control the drug market around L.A.’s MacArthur Park, was about 60 percent illegal in 2002, according to authorities.


http://www.stoptheftaa.org/artman/publish/article_117.shtml


Also a 20% illegal alien rise happened after bush declared his amnesty program, therefore increasing the rate even more.
65gtoman Offline
#13 Posted:
Joined: 06-12-2003
Posts: 858

also read the Welfare Rip Off by Illegals

http://www.cis.org/articles/2003/back503.html

also read:

The Illegal-Alien Crime Wave Part 1
(City Journal) Some of the most violent criminals at large today are illegal aliens.

http://www.city-journal.org/html/14_1_the_illegal_alien.html


and


The Illegal-Alien Crime Wave Part 2
(Washington Times) Last Friday, serial child predator Jose Guillermo Alvarado plead guilty

http://www.washingtontimes.com/op-ed/20040119-082933-4484r.htm

fudge Offline
#14 Posted:
Joined: 12-04-2003
Posts: 444
Now I am not disagreeing that there is a big problem, I am however very wary of figures that get thrown about.

"In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) target illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens."

It would seem to me that it is harder to pick up an illegal than it is to pick up someone here legally for a whole host of reasons. So it occurs to me that the outstanding warrants for illegals may accumulate over many years, and end up outnumbering warrants for legal residents by such a huge amount.


"http://www.stoptheftaa.org/artman/publish/article_117.shtml"
The source of the article writes for the Manhattan Institute, from their website:
"For 25 years, the Manhattan Institute has been an important force in shaping American political culture."
I would be wary of quoting a source trying to shape things, numbers are too easily massaged. Though I am not saying their figures are incorrect.


"Also a 20% illegal alien rise happened after bush declared his amnesty program, therefore increasing the rate even more."
We apparently had 8 million illegals here prior to his announcement, are you asserting that there has been an influx of 1.6 million more illegals in a matter of a month?


I think the number of outstanding warrants for illegals illustrates how hard it is to track these people down and deport them or bring them to justice. Something evidently has to be done, and Bush is doing something. I think his plan has merits and pitfalls, but it is sure as hell better than doing nothing, your figures illustrate perfectly what doing nothing causes.

Zed
65gtoman Offline
#15 Posted:
Joined: 06-12-2003
Posts: 858
http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=+95+percent+of+all+outstanding+warrants+for+homicide+&ei=UTF-8&fr=fp-tab-web-t&cop=mss&tab=
65gtoman Offline
#16 Posted:
Joined: 06-12-2003
Posts: 858
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=36831

Illegals rise 15%
since Bush plan

lets say its only 15% rise



or find your own source at

http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=+illegal+alien+rise+after+bush+amnesty+&ei=UTF-8&fr=fp-tab-web-t&n=20&fl=0&x=wrt


fudge Offline
#17 Posted:
Joined: 12-04-2003
Posts: 444
Find me a credible independent source that breaks down the 95% figure and shows that it hasn't accumulated over a lot of years and I'll be more than happy to accept it. I have looked and have failed to find one.
Besides illegals being harder to track down, many may chose to flee back to their home country. I don't know but I suspect that these warrants being for homicide never expire, and some could be decades old, but that is pure supposition on my part.
That may create such a ratio of warrants.
I guess the real measure would be the number of warrants issued last year or the year before. That should be a purer figure when looking for the percentage of illegals as opposed to legal residents/citizens suspected of homicide.
fudge Offline
#18 Posted:
Joined: 12-04-2003
Posts: 444
gtoman, to quote from your source "U.S. Border Patrol officials report a 15 percent increase in the use of fraudulent documents at the world's busiest land border crossing. "

A 15% rise in the use of fraudulent documents in no way equates to a 15% rise in the number of illegals in the country. I am sure that there has been a rise in the number of people trying to enter illegally, but I don't believe there has been a rise anything like you are asserting.

Please don't take it that I am standing up for illegals, I just like accuracy. When forming opinions I always prefer to be armed with accurate facts, and there are so many facts and figures floating about that just don't stand up to scrutiny.
65gtoman Offline
#19 Posted:
Joined: 06-12-2003
Posts: 858
What numbers would you like to see, under 50%? 20%? 5%?

I don’t want to waste my time looking for the wrong percentages, what numbers are you comfortable at? and then I will go look for you.
Robby Offline
#20 Posted:
Joined: 10-30-2002
Posts: 5,067
let's do the math, I wonder if illegal’s are more often the perpetrators of or the victims of violent crime? We have a minimart right up the street from where I live, it was robbed at gunpoint by a man and a woman last week. I don't know that they were "illegal" but they were most certainly Latin immigrants... The guy who worked there had his arm bent back behind him and almost broken (torn ligaments). Odd thing is, he’s an immigrant too, but he’s Persian, either Iran or Iraq, or one of those places.

Frankly, this whole bleeding heart crap for the illegals makes me ill. They’re here “illegally”, their NOT doing the **** jobs no one else will do (that’s BS) we’re not talking about migrant workers. We’re talking construction, painting, restaurants, etc… You can’t tell me those are jobs American’s would not work. What happens instead is that the employer gets away paying them half or less, doesn’t pay taxes (Social Security or otherwise) and doesn’t have to worry about insurance, etc…

AND FURTHERMORE! What about healthcare? Who pays when they get sick and go to the hospital? I DO! Who pays to lock their thieving asses up in jail? I DO! I’m sick of it. Either they’re illegal and should be sent home, or we should just open the damn boarder and quit bitching about the fact that they’re here. I’m personally for using the guard on the boarders. It’s a boarder. If you want to cross it, do so “legally” if you don’t then stay the F in your own F’ing country!
fudge Offline
#21 Posted:
Joined: 12-04-2003
Posts: 444
LMOA, I am not looking for any percentage apart from an accurate one.
I leave the "choose your own percentage" statistics to the politicians, the lobbyists, and the various foundations with an agenda.

I don't know who I would trust for news anymore. It used to be the BBC World Service was very straight forward and accurate. Alas it seems that since they dropped their world wide radio service they have become less interested in the truth.

65gtoman Offline
#22 Posted:
Joined: 06-12-2003
Posts: 858
hehehehe
fudge Offline
#23 Posted:
Joined: 12-04-2003
Posts: 444
"I’m personally for using the guard on the boarders. It’s a boarder. If you want to cross it, do so “legally” if you don’t then stay the F in your own F’ing country!"

I agree with you, they should be secured whatever it takes to do it. I am not a bleeding heart, whatever that is, if someone comes into my house to do me or mine harm it doesn't matter what race they are, they will be leaving in a bag.
I don't treat other people badly and I don't expect to be treated badly by others, in fact I take exception to it when it happens.
Cavallo Offline
#24 Posted:
Joined: 01-05-2004
Posts: 2,796
fudge: excellent points on the statistics. as mark twain said, "there are 3 kinds of lies -- lies, damned lies and statistics."

numbers without FULL info mean nothing.

choner: you got my point completely.

finally, robby wrote this, and it exemplifies the problem i have with the "latino = criminal" stereotype that IS rising:

" I don't know that they were "illegal" but they were most certainly Latin immigrants... The guy who worked there had his arm bent back behind him and almost broken (torn ligaments). Odd thing is, he’s an immigrant too, but he’s Persian, either Iran or Iraq, or one of those places."

now, how do you KNOW that they were latino immigrants? did you see their papers? i'm a second generation american-born italian; i still have an accent, too. so if you talked to me would you "know" that i'm an immigrant if you looked at me? talked to me?

secondly, you know for certain that they were immigrants (with what mystical powers, i don't know) and yet the people who were robbed -- also an immigrant (you're sure of this why?) is from "one of those places."

here's where my doubt comes in. if you are CERTAIN that the latino criminal was an immigrant (from... mexico? or just "one of those places" where latinos come from?), how can you not ALSO know with any certainty where the victim immigrant was from?

i mean, with the amazing powers of observation you have -- powers so strong that you can tell at a glance "for certain" a person's immigration and citizenship particulars -- can you not also use your powers to identify the country from which the victims emigrated from?

i'd think with powers like that you could get it down to city and hospital, much less country! ;)
65gtoman Offline
#25 Posted:
Joined: 06-12-2003
Posts: 858
Cavallo when you were a cop that must have been a site hearing you over the radio trying to describe a suspect hahahaha

How on earth did you manage to tell the other cops what the criminal looked like?
Cavallo Offline
#26 Posted:
Joined: 01-05-2004
Posts: 2,796
it was easy. there are standard categories used for descriptive purposes. black male. white female. latino female. asian male. once race is KNOWN that is.

when people call the cops, they do the best they can to describe features. a victim may say "some arab looking dude stole my purse!"

we would then ask "how do you know he's arab?" and then we go on to ask about specific FEATURES -- hair color, eye color, skin color and tone, height, weight and a host of others. the "arab dude" may turn out to be a latino dude or a biracial dude or a white dude with a suntan.

i would use those descriptive terms, because that's the info that's needed.

who is going to catch the criminal first? the officer who says to be on the lookout for "some arab dude in a blue jacket and jeans" or the officer who says "a possibly middle-eastern male, short dark brown hair, blue eyes, approximately 6'1 and 190 lbs. last seen wearing navy blue jacket and blue jeans" ???

cops know that this description does not necessarily mean that the suspect IS of middle-eastern extraction. he could be latino, asian, white with a tan and dark hair, biracial, etc. a cop looking for a suspect described TO US as "mid-eastern" does not go around looking and think, "hmmm... well, that guy over there matches the description, but he's speaking spanish on the pay phone, so that surely CAN'T be the one!"

we go on features, plain and simple. race and ethnicity is just one, and we realize that those are GUESSES at best.

i've certainly never heard a cop on the radio say, "the suspect is an illegal mexican, and if he isn't illegal, well, he's certainly an immigrant!"


first off, we don't have those kind of mind reading powers. :)

secondly, guessing at race and ethnicity doesn't help us find the suspect.

or, a more familiar term might be, "just the facts, ma'am."

we go on facts, not guesses.
65gtoman Offline
#27 Posted:
Joined: 06-12-2003
Posts: 858
who are the oh-so-smart white brothers? and how do you know that they are white in the first place?

you can tell what race a person is just by there typing?


maybe you do have those kind of mind reading powers.
Cavallo Offline
#28 Posted:
Joined: 01-05-2004
Posts: 2,796
first off, fudge, man... just what you said. exactly.

i'm not a "bleeding heart." i think our borders (ALL of them) should be as well sealed as possible. i think that ANYONE in this country illegally should be deported immediately. i absolutely disagree with our president who apparently wants to establish all kinds of perks for people here illegally.

to be in the USA without legal documentation is a CRIME, and after 9/11 i'd think it to be one of the more serious crimes we should prosecute. i do not think that we should, as a nation, validate criminal behavior by rewarding it with benefits that many of our OWN CITIZENS do not have (such as free health care).

that said, it does concern me when people see a person with particular features and start making negative and CRIMINAL assumptions based on those features alone. i assure you, i've met "illegal aliens" of all races and skin tones.

let me address other points brought up:

65gtoman wrote: "lso they have no proof that this was a hate crime, or even that it’s a white guy that did this, it’s all here say."

well, actually, a WITNESS did describe the attacker as a white male. perhaps you don't understand the meaning of "here say" (hearsay). eye-witness evidence is the opposite of hearsay evidence.

"i saw a white man beat another white man to death" is eye-witness testimony.

"my buddy said that he saw a white man beat another white man to death" is hearsay.

so no, it's not just wild guesses and mere speculation. there was an eye witness description of the attacker as a white man.

rayder1 wrote: "Very quiet older neighborhood. No roving bands of white supremists."

and i would ask, what does a white supremist look like? again, i've seen white supremecists who look vastly, vastly different from each other. many i've known look exactly like the kind of people who would (and many do) live in exactly such a neighborhood.

seen a photo of dr. william pierce? how about david pringle? pringle certainly fits the description of the murderer in this case. he also looks like the kind of guy to be living in such a neighborhood.

again, when you make ASSUMPTIONS and use STEREOTYPES, you forfeit the TRUTH. you exchange facts for fiction. stereotypes protect the guilty and harm the innocent.

for a police officer to go on stereotypes is very sloppy police work. for private citizens to build up the fear of a race or ethnicity based on stereotypes puts ALL of us in more danger.
Cavallo Offline
#29 Posted:
Joined: 01-05-2004
Posts: 2,796
gto: HUH?

you wrote: "who are the oh-so-smart white brothers? and how do you know that they are white in the first place? you can tell what race a person is just by there typing? maybe you do have those kind of mind reading powers."

i have no idea what you're talking about. what white brothers?
Cavallo Offline
#30 Posted:
Joined: 01-05-2004
Posts: 2,796
ahhhhhhhh. i see now. you're referring to another thread, and i will answer you on that thread to avoid any confusion.
tailgater Offline
#31 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
This wasn't a Love Crime.
But which one's truly are...?
Cavallo Offline
#32 Posted:
Joined: 01-05-2004
Posts: 2,796
tailgator: heh... go rent the movie, She Loves Me To Death. ;)
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