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Last post 20 years ago by Cavallo. 16 replies replies.
One Reservist's Explanation of AWOL
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Cavallo Offline
#1 Posted: Mon, Feb 16 2004, 1:21 PM EST
Joined: 01-05-2004
Posts: 2,796
an interesting read!

http://www.mediainfo.com/eandp/columns/shoptalk_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=2088668
CWFoster Offline
#2 Posted: Mon, Feb 16 2004, 1:56 PM EST
Joined: 12-12-2003
Posts: 5,414
Ecellent post! I've had som "Not Observed evals myself! Not that I was UA (unauthorized abscence) but was at the command less than 90 days before the eval was due! Was that part of what the press and Dems have been muck raking over? Sheesh!
dbguru Offline
#3 Posted: Mon, Feb 16 2004, 2:25 PM EST
Joined: 03-06-2002
Posts: 1,300
The following link is an interesting piece of investigation

http://www.calpundit.com/archives/003220.html

You know this story about George Bush fulfilling or not fulfilling his duty would be settled if Bush would Simply come clean and account for activities between May 1972 and April 1973. the "complete" set of records he presented did not clear the air as you can surmise from that link. Only one witness recollects seeing him and mentions time May 73 and after, but there is this year of innactivity that all the records presented by the White House fail to shed light on.

Now as far as I understand, AWOL is absent without leave and if I understand things correctly, This is a short term designation. I'm no military expert but isn't it possible to go AWOL, serve a disciplinary action for the transgression and still get an honorable discharge? So its certainly possible that Bush wen't AWOL and still got honorably discharged, right?

Interesting that Kerry is staying neutral on this issue despite the fact that the issue is sprouting legs. Now there are those who are beginning to go beyond the accusation of AWOL and mention desertion as is done in the link above. For now let's let judgements here be a personal thing.

My main concern is the way the Bush administration has reacted to these charges and the way they simply don't present the evidence neccessary to eliminate these charges.

What about the one witness who has come forward - John B. "Bill" Calhoun - testifying to George's service?

Calhoun has said he saw Bush 8-10 times between May and October of 1972. (Or was it four to six times?) But as the Washington Post has pointed out, "Calhoun remembers seeing Bush at Dannelly at times in mid-1972 when the White House acknowledges Bush was not pulling Guard duty in Alabama yet; his first drills were in October, according to the White House. White House press secretary Scott McClellan on Friday was at a loss to reconcile the discrepancy..."

Dozens of other pilots have been interviewed and have no recollection of Bush, even those who were aware he was supposed to show up, and were on the lookout for him. From TIME Magazine:

"Paul Bishop, a retired Air Force colonel who says he never missed a weekend drill in 27 years with the 187th, told TIME the physical layout of the unit's hangar made it 'virtually impossible' for Bush to have met with Calhoun and for none of the unit's 800 other reservists to have seen him."

I'm just wondering the names of fellow reservists Bush can recollect serving and doing drills with during this period. If his service was indeed active and honorable, he would have naturally made friends whose names he could easily recollect. I can easily recollect 80-90% of the people I encountered in 1972.


If this was peacetime, such as during most of Bill Clinton's tenure, these would not be issues. But with war inflicted upon us and for a "War president" these matters of critical importance. Its a matter of accountability in the critical evaluation of war leadership. Looks like its an issue no matter how many times Scott McClellan and the Republicans want to say its settled and done. (This one won't get done until Bush tells the whole truth, not the half truth)

DB
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#4 Posted: Mon, Feb 16 2004, 4:31 PM EST
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
Koprowski has articulated BS, no different then all the defensive BS put out by little w and his backers.

little w was and still is awol. an honorable discharge can be rescinded if the reciepent obtained it illegally, and he can be incarcerated.

little w never had a responsible day in his life. why would he respect his obligation to the national guard when he has never respected any obligation in his life.

anyone that thinks bush actually completed all his srvice in spite of all the evidence to the contrary. is an idiot

any and all idiots may post now.
kccody Offline
#5 Posted: Mon, Feb 16 2004, 9:34 PM EST
Joined: 03-19-2007
Posts: 610
Just get over it Rick.

it's so sad that you have nothing better to do with yourself.....
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#6 Posted: Tue, Feb 17 2004, 2:29 AM EST
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
kcody

don't be sad.

these posts consume about an hour a day at the most. a small price for me to pay to point out insane arrogance of little w and his puppet masters.

when i'm not posting, i have more then enough to make my life interesting.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#7 Posted: Tue, Feb 17 2004, 3:20 AM EST
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,528
Being charged with AWOL will not get you an Honorable Discharge.
Cavallo Offline
#8 Posted: Tue, Feb 17 2004, 4:26 AM EST
Joined: 01-05-2004
Posts: 2,796
well, rick, come over and visit, coz i'm bored as hell! lol

honorable discharge: see, this is one thing that i'd like to be settled -- by someone with some serious know-how and/or authority: what circumstances EXACTLY are REQUIRED for an honorable discharge?
Charlie Offline
#9 Posted: Tue, Feb 17 2004, 9:14 AM EST
Joined: 06-16-2002
Posts: 39,751
Rick

Get back on attack! You are slacking off these days and we miss your "supported" mud you sling at GWB! I am shocked that you haven't weighted in on Mel Gibson and the movie "Passion of the Christ"!

Charlie
Cavallo Offline
#10 Posted: Tue, Feb 17 2004, 9:19 AM EST
Joined: 01-05-2004
Posts: 2,796
i posted something about the movie a couple weeks back... rick, did you weigh in on that?
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#11 Posted: Tue, Feb 17 2004, 10:52 AM EST
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
Charlie and Cavallo

i have not seen the movie so i can't comment.

not picking you guys as examples, notic how many posters respond to tings they have no knoweledge of.

i did see "the last temptation of christ."

i thought the premise, which unlike ebert, i will not disclose, was a very interesting take on what could have been christ's last temptation. i am not familiar with much of the life of christ, except what i have read, however i did find a book called "the life of jesus for dummies" written by a minister in a secular fashion.
CWFoster Offline
#12 Posted: Tue, Feb 17 2004, 6:24 PM EST
Joined: 12-12-2003
Posts: 5,414
OK, we have a guy who may have been AWOL, or UA as we call it these days in the Navy. Against him, we have a guy who supported enemy efforts to undermine the war effort when he got home, and forced the closure of an ongoing investigation of the likelihood of Americans remaining in Vietnam so his cousin could close a Billion dollar deal with the Vietnamese government. I see your AWOL, and raise you a draft dodger (Clinton) why is this such an issue when your guy is on the right side of it, and not so much an issue when you want to support the Draft dodger/traitor? I DETEST hypocracy, no matter who uses it! Even when my side uses it, because it profanes the legitimate arguments we have. Bill Clinton Signed up for the National Guard, and didn't sign the final contract because he got his deferment from being selected as a Rhodes Scholor. Why is this no worse than what Bush is being accused of? Kerry was supporting a peace proposal that was drafted in East Germany, and would have been detrimental to our POWs, this is a CLEAR VIOLATION of the Uniform Services Code of Conduct! Why is this not an even bigger issue? Usahog is an AF Reservist, but he's been activated several times, and he could give you a more accurate picture of how drill time is accounted for. At the time Bush served, the Reserves were considered to be a "Next to last-ditch" measure, the National Guard units would have been the last to go in the event of a major conflict (WWIII) In recent years, in an effort to scale back on the cost of a huge standing military, more of our forces have been shifted to the reserves, and I'm sure a correspondingly more stringent attitude has been taken to attendance, but you can't judge someones action thirty years ago by the standards in place today. The Code of Conduct remains unchanged! Professional ethics remain unchanged, it seems that the pot is calling the kettle black!

Cavallo- as recently as a couple of years ago, it was explained to me that if you weren't doing your part in the reserves, you would simply be told you couldn't reenlist, and would lose all the points you had accumulated towards retirement, in effect be told to go home. In active duty, if you are UA, you can go to Captains Mast (UCMJ Atricle 15) and if you do your restriction, and extra duty, and keep your nose clean for the rest of your hitch, you will get an honorable discharge. However, if you are active duty, after thirty days you are no longer unauthorized abscence, but a deserter, it would take almost a year to accumulate thirty days. If you return at 29 days, the CO will probably throw the book at you, but the above is the most likely extent of it! CWFoster, ET1(SW) USN, AD
usahog Offline
#13 Posted: Tue, Feb 17 2004, 6:45 PM EST
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
when I inlisted in 1985... to miss Drills or AWOL as it is called would land you in the Active Duty Ciriculum.. they would go to your house knock on the door and get you dressed and escort you to the Active side of Military life.. there you would finish out your remainder Enlistment... it wasn't until about 1991 when Clinton cutbacks on the military that they relaxed this rule but it was in place since and before Vietnam... while enlisted in the ANG.. and before 1991 I seen first hand 4 people be deported to Active Duty for not showing up for their mandated weekends...

Many of the Articals I read about this on Bush I just Laugh because Not one of them talks about this Punishment if their Military Commitment with the ANG or AFR are not followed out???

as far as records are concerned.. I don't want to discuss the Burocratic Bull**** here... not on Bush's part but on the part of the Military as a whole.. as Rick himself had even said.. he used to pull and trash the medical records on Officers who pissed him off...
Don't think for a Minute this same **** thing couldn't happen to ANYONE!!!!!! and I will Include Myself here ((( Insert usahog ))) been There Got that and Wiping my Ass on the T-Shirt!!!!!

What I would suggest to all the Folks who think of Bush as AWOL.. Look at his Track Record today and the Events the Man and his Administration have dealt with so far in an A Plus Mannor or Better!!!!!!
The Defence Rests!!!!!

Hog
dbguru Offline
#14 Posted: Tue, Feb 17 2004, 8:56 PM EST
Joined: 03-06-2002
Posts: 1,300
My typing sucks always but I think you spell it defense... not defence

Of course at football games, its D IIIII
usahog Offline
#15 Posted: Tue, Feb 17 2004, 9:21 PM EST
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
Well if you look on these boards.. these guys have eatin me alive for my spelling and the way I type..

anyways next time I'll use "D" Rests

LOL
Hog
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#16 Posted: Tue, Feb 17 2004, 11:46 PM EST
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
"The Defence Rests"

the prosecution would like to recall several defense witnesses for further cross examination.
Cavallo Offline
#17 Posted: Wed, Feb 18 2004, 2:39 AM EST
Joined: 01-05-2004
Posts: 2,796
ohhhhh, lawd deeeed! look what we got going on now! first it was JAG, then NCIS, and now it's CBID: Military Justice *insert stern theme music* :)

wonder why of the 2 military criminal justice shows on tv, BOTH are navy (or USMC by extension) oriented? what the heck are you guys doing, CWF, to get so much attention from hollywood!! :)

if anyone can't tell, i'm joking. i'm a kiddah -- i kid, becawse i luff!

seriously, though, thanks for you militarians for chiming in on the nitty gritty and terminology of how such things work. it TRULY helps to have at least a clue about terminology like "unobserved" -- god knows, military speak and civvy speak can be miles (or knots!) apart.
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