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Last post 20 years ago by Cavallo. 14 replies replies.
Is It Time to Rethink Women in Combat
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usahog Offline
#1 Posted: Sun, Mar 21 2004, 12:43 PM EST
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
http://www.military.com/NewContent/0,13190,Defensewatch_031004_Women,00.html?ESRC=dod.nl

Hog
Cavallo Offline
#2 Posted: Sun, Mar 21 2004, 1:08 PM EST
Joined: 01-05-2004
Posts: 2,796
bull.

women have served (WELL) in combat positions since time immemorial. it's an insult to their service -- and their sacrifices -- to hear such crap.

it's also pretty twisted to see the ad on that page -- 2 male and 1 female soldiers in a recruiting ad -- after the story around it dumps on women as little more than "he looked at me funny" crybabies.

men can be warriors. women can be warriors.

both have been doing so in every conflict known throughout history.

the author dumps on the media -- rightly so. the military as a WHOLE would function much better without the media up its butt at every turn. but to point the finger at women and say "they can't be soldiers" -- because SOME MEN can't control their johnsonal urges -- is crap.

some women ARE crybabies.
some men ARE jackholes.

but no one's saying that we should do a damned thing about the (FEW) jerks who can't get their professional act together. if a male soldier gets a woody for a female soldier and can't deal with it... kick HER out? screw that.
eleltea Offline
#3 Posted: Mon, Mar 22 2004, 6:41 AM EST
Joined: 03-03-2002
Posts: 4,562
Some of the greatest warriors in the Roman legions were women.
THL Offline
#4 Posted: Tue, Mar 23 2004, 9:14 AM EST
Joined: 10-22-2002
Posts: 3,044
If you were fighting for your life would you prefer the average man or the average woman as your ally? Whom would you prefer as your opponent?
There is a difference. Women in combat would be ok with me as long as there is no reduction in qualifying standards to put them there. Unfortunately, we don't do it that way.
THL Offline
#5 Posted: Tue, Mar 23 2004, 9:18 AM EST
Joined: 10-22-2002
Posts: 3,044
And don't give us that crap about the Israeli unit composed completely of women. After sustaining higher losses than any other unit in the history of the Israeli military they were disbanded. It was a noble, albeit bloody experiment.
Cavallo Offline
#6 Posted: Tue, Mar 23 2004, 9:26 AM EST
Joined: 01-05-2004
Posts: 2,796
THL: i'll take whoever has the ability to do the job best on as many levels as possible. raw strength is useless without brains, for instance.

after working with female cops in all kinds of situations, i'll tell you that all but one of them can have my back *any* day.

the percentages aren't nearly that good when it comes to male cops i've worked with, especially the partners we referred to as "dumb and dumber." no one wanted to partner up with them, lest they end up killed. dumb was testosterone-driven and went from 0-to-hulking-maniac in a split second and screwed up because of that. tell him to show up slow and dark, and he'd screech in with lights and sirens blazing and blaring. lol

dumber was just a general train wreck. give him one order, and you can count on him to do the opposite. he had the reaction time of a turtle and all the common sense of a stale donut. :P

both were big and scary and muscley. but a little 5'7 140 lb. female cop could whip both of their asses by far.

i do agree about the minimums, though. that's not right, not necessary and IS dangerous to keep doing. if a woman can do the job and do it well, then go for it. if she can't hack the same tests as men, then no way.
BeatDragon Offline
#7 Posted: Tue, Mar 23 2004, 9:55 AM EST
Joined: 02-28-2003
Posts: 4,754
Tony, Its hard to "Think" a truck off your legs...
Cavallo Offline
#8 Posted: Tue, Mar 23 2004, 10:16 AM EST
Joined: 01-05-2004
Posts: 2,796
yeah, but come on... think of all the different combat positions and situations there are. if all you needed was a hulking dude who could grunt and lift a truck, then you'd be all set. when adreneline hits, men and women alike can do extraordinary things, too.

give me a man OR a woman in acceptable military range of physical condition who knows how to follow orders, operate their weaponry and gear, improvise when the situation calls for it and generally think on their feet, and i'd be happy.

again, though, when it comes to meeting those fitness standards, it's gotta be equal. REASONABLE but equal. i don't care if john OR jane can do 1,000 squat thrusts or 5,000 sit ups. a TOTAL soldier is more valuable than a set of six-pack abs.

i realize this is a wildly unpopular POV to have, but there's a hellova lot of women in combat info out there that's not seen much daylight. i did a thesis on women in combat (motivations to combat) and was amazed at how women have done -- and for how long.

and after seeing female cops "in action," like i said, there's just one i wouldn't want to be in the shiznit with, and that's because she belonged with dumb and dumber. she could be dumbEST with them. :P
BeatDragon Offline
#9 Posted: Tue, Mar 23 2004, 10:28 AM EST
Joined: 02-28-2003
Posts: 4,754
I was just pullin yer chain...*yank* *yank*
Cavallo Offline
#10 Posted: Tue, Mar 23 2004, 11:25 AM EST
Joined: 01-05-2004
Posts: 2,796
DOH! :)

eh, ya know... the sun's out, blue skies, and for once i'm feeling very close to Quite Good physically. i'm gonna bow out of this one and just go play. :)
usahog Offline
#11 Posted: Tue, Mar 23 2004, 3:24 PM EST
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
I through this also up on another BB and I cought holly Well over it LMAO!!!

one guy even blasted me for writing the article LMAO!!!!

and not one of you guy's told me to take a flying leap at a rolling donut... how strange...

THL... on your question about who would you want with you if fighting for my life.. the answer would be the same group of folks/Women included who I have been with/trained with/and know who is able and who isn't to come through in the clutch....

my grandpa said two things to me when I was growing up..
1. keep your pecker in your pants and you wont get in trouble... (I didn't listen to this one)

2. don't go where your paycheck comes from...I did listen and have maintained 19 yrs Military and can tell you not one knotch in my belt has come from another service members blouse.... I have trained many women along with men.. and in the work we do..(I Stated this on the other BB also) i've seen women out perform men 3-1 ratio... I've heard less bitching from the women then I have the men... I could honestly train the women better then the men for retainability aspects of the job... meaning I could show them the basics and where to find the Tech Data to complete a task.. and not have to hold their hand and go back over **** as if I were doing the job myself...

Women in the Military make up the Total Force Concept...there are allot of physical differences and that gets worked out within the job standards and career fields for each line of service....

I personally if my house were on fire, I would not want a woman firewoman trying to carry my fat Arse to safety.....

Hog
MACS Offline
#12 Posted: Tue, Mar 23 2004, 3:25 PM EST
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,809
The MEDIA blew that Jessica Lynch crap all out of proportion and painted her a hero. She screwed up and got caught. Then got rescued by the REAL heros.

Women on ship's has been mostly a headache for me. Last deployment we had a few "couples" caught doin' the dirty in out of the way spaces. You can't stop hormones people... and during battle, do you want one of your shipmates worrying about his sweethearts safety while he is supposed to be watching YOUR back?

I call it like I see it. That's how I see it.
echo4alpha Offline
#13 Posted: Tue, Mar 23 2004, 3:50 PM EST
Joined: 01-25-2003
Posts: 4,349
I'm gonna catch hell over this, but here goes. The physical standards should never have been modified to account for gender. It's fine if your MOS keeps you in an office, shop, or somewhere you don't hump everything you need to function. MOS' that require constant physical conditioning (ie, grunts) and units that directly support them will always have weak links in the chain. Whether that weak link is male or female doesn't really matter. When the bar was lowered, that weak link had lower standards to uphold. Someone else has to take up the slack, and often the one who steps up to bat has his/her performance suffer. Unacceptable in combat.

When a man goes down in a fireteam, one team member has to pick up the casulties duties. Another has to carry/drag the casualty. Firepower is diminished by up to 50%. Half the team is doing 100% of the work. No place for someone sqeaking by on modified PT standards.

One standard - both genders. If you can't hack it - pack it.

My .02

E4A
Cigarick Offline
#14 Posted: Tue, Mar 23 2004, 4:14 PM EST
Joined: 07-28-2002
Posts: 3,078
"...but let one sexual assault complaint see the light of day, and a congressional hearing is launched."

This guy is clearly an a$$hole. Women generally outperform men in a lot of areas because they're not overloaded with testosterone. They generally do not outperform men physically because they're not overloaded with testosterone. Should women be in the military? Sure. Should they be in combat? Not until they can carry as much gear and run as far and as fast as the men.
Cavallo Offline
#15 Posted: Wed, Mar 24 2004, 12:23 AM EST
Joined: 01-05-2004
Posts: 2,796
"One standard - both genders. If you can't hack it - pack it."

amen. that's about where it begins and ends. good points, all, gentlemen.

hog: was that other board a cigar board?
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