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Karma
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Robby Offline
#1 Posted: Mon, Apr 19 2004, 4:11 PM EST
Joined: 10-30-2002
Posts: 5,067
Does anyone here believe in it? i.e., what goes around, comes around so to speak?
bloody spaniard Offline
#2 Posted: Mon, Apr 19 2004, 4:55 PM EST
Joined: 03-14-2003
Posts: 43,802
I don't know that I would call it "karma", but I feel that there are definite consequences to our actions, be they good or bad.

My feelings are that whenever we do wrong, God temporarily pulls away the protective "mantle" and "allows" us to fend for ourselves until we learn the error of our ways & ask for forgiveness.

I could go on 'n on but what's up Robby?

blood
Robby Offline
#3 Posted: Mon, Apr 19 2004, 5:15 PM EST
Joined: 10-30-2002
Posts: 5,067
I was just speaking with someone tonight who's been putting the stones to me (figuritivly, NOT litterally... She doesn't actually have stones, but acts like it sometimes...). I can't help but think that if there is any sort of justice for our actions that she will be made to pay and pay dearly for what she is doing. I'm not saying that I wish that on her, I don't wish harm on anyone, but if there is Karma, then she may be in trouble...
bloody spaniard Offline
#4 Posted: Mon, Apr 19 2004, 5:31 PM EST
Joined: 03-14-2003
Posts: 43,802
Abusive individuals will inevitably get their comeuppance from other abusive people. I think that stress also magnifies many things which are otherwise not as significant in the larger picture.

Hope you can ride this one out, bro. Think of it as a painful wound which will eventually heal. Now, go drink up some penicillin 'n such!

Doctor bs
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#5 Posted: Mon, Apr 19 2004, 6:14 PM EST
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
KARMA

That which is inevitably destined:
• fate
• destiny
• divine Providence
• fortune
• kismet
• lot
• luck
• predestination
• doom

sort of like you do me first and then i'll do you.
lukin Offline
#6 Posted: Mon, Apr 19 2004, 9:57 PM EST
Joined: 03-31-2004
Posts: 2,205
I'm a full on beleiver in Karma. But, I don't really think of it in the negative way. I just know that as long as I am nice and treat others and my environment the best that I possibly can that in the end I will be rewarded for it. I can't really give you any instances where it comes into play, but I live a full, rich life and am very happy. Also, whenever I go anywhere with a huge parking space, there always seems to be an open spot in the front for me when I need it. I guess I live rather hippie-ish.
patman Offline
#7 Posted: Tue, Apr 20 2004, 2:54 AM EST
Joined: 12-22-2003
Posts: 262
Do I believe in Karma, what goes around comes around?

In a word: No

In paragraph (or 2 or 3):

I have done MANY bad and terrible things in my life. I will not go into all of that but lets just say that if I were to have been caught and went to trial, I may very well still be in jail or just getting out. That was a LONG time ago. If Karma existed, then I would be a tortured soul. I am not....

I do however believe in Grace and Love. I believe that God has had mercy on me and has forgiven me for my sins and has loved me in spite of my lack of discipline and courage to be honest.

I believe that even as I am still broken and still sin today that God still continues to forgive me and love me. That still amazes me to this very day.

I am a Christian. I don’t believe that there is logic in Christianity. I don’t believe that there is an equation to this life that looks like:

My works and deeds = my level peace and happiness


I do believe that there is an equation that looks like this though:

God Speaks + Man or Woman obeys = Miracles

If God can look past my actions and see the man that I CAN be, that is truly a miracle. If he can reveal that person to me, well that is another miracle. If I can place enough faith in God for that new man to emerge well that is yet another miracle. The list goes on and on.

So, Karma, no way. Forgiveness, Grace and Love trough Christ, absolutely!

I apologize for the long explanation but it’s important to me.

Happy Smokin'

Patman
DrMaddVibe Offline
#8 Posted: Tue, Apr 20 2004, 3:12 AM EST
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,610
Patman...that was an AWESOME response.
xrundog Offline
#9 Posted: Tue, Apr 20 2004, 5:23 AM EST
Joined: 01-17-2002
Posts: 2,212
Karma is intimately connected to the concepts of right thinking and right acting. If you persist in wrongness, eventually wrongness will return to you. Or at the very least, other people will have no interest in treating you rightly. On the cigar boards, it's called cigarma. Act rightly and you will inevitably receive more than you give. That person putting the stones to you Robby? If you take the high road, she will ABSOLUTELY get hers!
bloody spaniard Offline
#10 Posted: Tue, Apr 20 2004, 5:49 AM EST
Joined: 03-14-2003
Posts: 43,802
^ I agree.

Sorry to "threadjack", Robby, but what is your denomination Pat?
Also, what is your take on Islam (from the Christian perspective)? If you don't want to answer, I'll understand.

One more thing, God answers ALL of our prayers, but they're not necessarily the answers that we wanted to hear. If we ask for His help, He will provide us with what's in our best interest long-term, and essentially our eternal salvation.

Hope your hardships end soon Robby.
fritzthetiger Offline
#11 Posted: Tue, Apr 20 2004, 5:56 AM EST
Joined: 04-03-2004
Posts: 314
Patman:

Not to get into religion too much (although I love it):

But I believe that Faith is logical, not in a human sense, but in a theological sense. I am an unbelievably logical person and I have experienced, tried and studied many things; God's grace through Christ is the most logical means to salvation that exists. We do nothing (in fact we believe [in my church body] that we can't even ask God into our lives that is done through the Holy Spirit). Since we ourselves are not capable of moving toward salvation, only the Creator can do it; that's logical.

In fact God gives me so much and I could even go on sinning and still have salvation, but I choose not to out of thankfulness and also as an example.

Fritz
patman Offline
#12 Posted: Tue, Apr 20 2004, 6:27 AM EST
Joined: 12-22-2003
Posts: 262
fritz,

When I said there is no logic in Christianity, I was referring to human / fleshly logic.

For instance, Turn the other cheek. I'll tell ya, if you punch me in the face, my mind says I'm gonna freakin kill you and be glad that I did it. My spirit says easy there big guy. What happened to bring this on, How can I allow the grace of God into this situation?

Human logic is to defend while spiritual logic is to love and embrace. That is all that I was saying. Sorry for not being clear enough.


Blood,

As for the nation of Islam, they are people just like you and me. God loves them just as much and he does every Christian and non Christian alike. His love surpasses understanding. What is my take on them as a nation or a religion or as a sect or even a race? I'll say this. No one is beyond the grace of our father. No one! Do I appreciate what they are doing? Of course not. Do I value them as a people? Yes I do. Do I pray for them as well as our solders? Definitely.

There was once a young man that used to hurt people, steal their things, kill their animals, sell drugs to their children and even worse.

He is a new creation today because of the love of Christ. He likes cigars and is not perfect. He is NOT guilt driven, he is Love and Grace driven. Why do I tell you this? If he can change, anyone can.

The statement above addresses the violence in the Middle East. Now what about the peaceful folks of Islam?

The peaceful folks of Islam are just like the peaceful folks of Buddhism, Wickin or anything other than Christianity in my mind. Understand that I am not a religious man. In my mind religion kills. But a personal relationship with God through Christ gives birth to everlasting life. So I do not rebuke them as a nation or religion or anything, no, I embrace them. And love them the same way God did me when I was a Satan worshiping, car stealing drug addict.

Is it easy? Heck no! Is it worth it? I believe so. Do I always succeed? Unfortunately, No.

When I do "I thank God, when I fail I ask forgiveness and when the say is done I lay my head on a pillow and rest." - Max Lucado


fritzthetiger Offline
#13 Posted: Tue, Apr 20 2004, 6:30 AM EST
Joined: 04-03-2004
Posts: 314
Hey Patman:

PAX. A good poat and response. One of my dgrees is in theology and I need to let it out once in a while. Thanks.

Fritz
patman Offline
#14 Posted: Tue, Apr 20 2004, 6:55 AM EST
Joined: 12-22-2003
Posts: 262
oops, I ment to say when the Day is done... I am really bad at typing... Sorra about that.

Fritz,

Not a poblem man... Where did you go to school at? I am considering getting going to seminary... Kinda scared and no $$$
fritzthetiger Offline
#15 Posted: Tue, Apr 20 2004, 6:57 AM EST
Joined: 04-03-2004
Posts: 314
I took under at U of M and went on to Graduate school there. Fritz
patman Offline
#16 Posted: Tue, Apr 20 2004, 7:13 AM EST
Joined: 12-22-2003
Posts: 262
[email protected]

Drop me a line some time..
patman Offline
#17 Posted: Tue, Apr 20 2004, 7:15 AM EST
Joined: 12-22-2003
Posts: 262
Really sorry about the thread jack here... Total Violation of thread rights.... WOW. Verry Verry Sorry!
bloody spaniard Offline
#18 Posted: Tue, Apr 20 2004, 7:49 AM EST
Joined: 03-14-2003
Posts: 43,802
Understand that I am not a religious man. In my mind religion kills. But a personal relationship with God through Christ gives birth to everlasting life.

Max, you had me until you made the above odd, seemingly contradictory comment.

I respect what you say you've been through, and really admire your apparent frankness. However, you are practicing moral relativism when you lump all religions together. Not to split hairs, but some are closer to the Word than others.

I don't have the time right now, but when I do, I will begin a thread on Islam. A religion that in my opinion is based on paganism with smatterings of Christianity and Judaism. A religion of intolerance, of cruelty, and MANY written contradictions. Seems old Muhammad's "ramblings" were recorded whenever he had epiltectic seizures...

BTW, Islam encompasses many races, nationalities, and cultures. In fact, some consider it a culture unto itself.

I wish you the best on your "journey", brother.

blood
bloody spaniard Offline
#19 Posted: Tue, Apr 20 2004, 7:50 AM EST
Joined: 03-14-2003
Posts: 43,802
^ "epileptic"
patman Offline
#20 Posted: Tue, Apr 20 2004, 8:03 AM EST
Joined: 12-22-2003
Posts: 262
I look forward to the thread...
Cavallo Offline
#21 Posted: Tue, Apr 20 2004, 8:07 AM EST
Joined: 01-05-2004
Posts: 2,796
oh, i'd like to get in on the theology debatin' sometime. :) maybe someone could start a thread?

robby: keep in mind this first and foremost: THIS, TOO, SHALL PASS. :) the only thing we can be sure of is change.

as for karma... i don't call it that, but i have seen the "what goes around comes around" thing happen far too many times NOT to believe in the concept. it is, by far, the rule and not the exception that you get more of whatever you put out into the universe.

it is not, however, necessarily neat and tidy. "instant karma" so to speak DOES happen, but not often. but over time it is crystal clear to me that what you put out there will return to you.

bad things happen to good people -- for awhile.
good things happen to bad people -- for awhile.

use the (what's the word for this?) corrolary... example... whatever it's called... that light = the positive we do and darkness = the negative.

all it takes to break the darkness is a spark, one lone candle. in fact, the more total the darkness, the more clearly and farther the light of a single candle can be seen. darkness never extinguishes light; it only magnifies it.

when people are caught up in their own negativity, they express it to the world. and for awhile they may "win." they may achieve their goals. this will not always be the case, BUT "divine retribution" or "the law of the universe" or "cosmic justice" does not always take the form of an eye for an eye.

the person who is persecuting you may not "get hers" in the same manner she's putting it to you. it WILL come back to her somehow, though. sometimes it is in the same form, sometimes not.

"he who lives by the sword shall die by the sword" doesn't just talk about violence. it's a truth that tells us that what we do will return to us.
Sylance Offline
#22 Posted: Tue, Apr 20 2004, 9:41 AM EST
Joined: 06-19-2003
Posts: 592
Okay, here’s my .03 cents.

I don’t believe in Karma in the strict definition of it. However, I believe Karma is a byproduct of something else. I believe that human beings exist in a war zone between Good and Evil. I also believe that God, with His infinite love has granted us free will, but Evil uses that free will to push us off God’s path.

Coming back around to Karma, when people stray from God’s path they partially or fully disconnect themselves from God… God’s connection is always there but we may choose not to take it. At the same time this happens we attract the attention of Evil. Once we do that, that’s when “Karma” becomes evident. Evil’s intent is to destroy humanity, disconnect humanity from God and rule our universe. When bad “Karma” happens we are not punished by God, but we are living life as Evil would have it. When good “Karma” happens it’s not God’s reward… it’s God’s original plan for humanity. The “reward” was always there.
Cavallo Offline
#23 Posted: Tue, Apr 20 2004, 9:48 AM EST
Joined: 01-05-2004
Posts: 2,796
sylance, that's a good way of putting it. good job.
patman Offline
#24 Posted: Tue, Apr 20 2004, 10:28 AM EST
Joined: 12-22-2003
Posts: 262
right on dude...
puskarich Offline
#25 Posted: Tue, Apr 20 2004, 5:28 PM EST
Joined: 01-04-2003
Posts: 2,143
I believe in "Garma".
Cavallo Offline
#26 Posted: Tue, Apr 20 2004, 8:55 PM EST
Joined: 01-05-2004
Posts: 2,796
in-a da mafia, they just-a believe in-a one kinda "divine" justice. it's ordered from-a da godfaddah and it's-a called HARMA, as in "you mess-a wit' me, an' me an' my boys will cause-a you much HARMA."
00camper Offline
#27 Posted: Wed, Apr 21 2004, 4:43 AM EST
Joined: 07-11-2003
Posts: 2,326
Bloody Spaniard,

Let me try to help you understand this seemingly contradictory statement from an earlier post: "In my mind religion kills. But a personal relationship with God through Christ gives birth to everlasting life. "

Religion puts the emphasis on PEOPLE and what PEOPLE can do to save themselves from Hell. Religion establishes lists of "do this" and "don't do that" and adherents of religion feel safe as long as they are keeping the rules. Religion gives people permission to look at themselves relative to everyone else and say "I'm a good person, I keep the rules, I'm not like those other people so I MUST be going to Heaven." In the end, religion leads to death. Not physical death, but spiritual death - people trudging through life obeying rules that seem irrelevant in today's world, hoping, but not knowing for sure, that obedience will keep them out of Hell.

Christianity is different. Christianity is a relational faith where we acknowledge that we are sinners and that - apart from believing Jesus is the Son of God, asking forgiveness for our sins, and accepting a personal relationship with God through Jesus - we can do nothing to save ourselves.

As Christians grow in faith and mature over time we realize that certain behaviors are destructive and we stop. We also realize that the world is watching and what is okay for us may not be okay for our neighbors and we stop because we don't want to lead our neighbors down a path toward destruction - both now and in the hereafter.

Christians have a living, relational faith, not a recipe book for avoiding Hell. That, in a nutshell, is the difference between religion and Christianity, and why religion leads to death.
Lazygardner Offline
#28 Posted: Wed, Apr 21 2004, 7:21 AM EST
Joined: 08-20-2002
Posts: 176
Check out this cartoon example of Karma at work:

http://billyblob.com/cartoons/karma-ghost/
bloody spaniard Offline
#29 Posted: Wed, Apr 21 2004, 12:39 PM EST
Joined: 03-14-2003
Posts: 43,802
"Understand that I am not a religious man. In my mind religion kills."

Oh, so brother Dave was using a metaphor. I took it literally-the Crusades, inquisitions, pogroms, Jim Jones, etc.

I would enjoy discussing this further with you Marty but I've got to go. However, your comments were clear & logical. Only issue that I would have is that people need clear absolutes (good vs. bad). These are static. They do not change, as opposed to conventional mores which can be shaped by Hollywood.

Good "seeing" you, brother.
patman Offline
#30 Posted: Wed, Apr 21 2004, 5:27 PM EST
Joined: 12-22-2003
Posts: 262
Well actually the comment was dynamic. It's metaphorical as well as litteral. I truly beleive that religion or more politically correctly, religous disagreements have killed more people than any other topic, secular or otherwise.

And it kills the spirit as well.

The whole point here is that the Church needs to get away from legalisim and religon and get down to a pesonal relationship with God, Christ and the Holy Spirit. Its that simple.

Once we start to act like our faith is more than just agood conversation peice and take it seriously our whole world will change.

My questions is what are we all waiting for?



00camper Offline
#31 Posted: Thu, Apr 22 2004, 4:28 AM EST
Joined: 07-11-2003
Posts: 2,326
Patman,

The thing keeping people from accepting Christ as savior today has been the same for the past 2000 years - ego. People don't want to admit that there is an absolute standard embodied in Christ himself, and that no human being has ever been able to live up to that standard.

People want their lives evaluated on a curve - something like "I did the best I could and that should be enough."

There's more - a lot more - but that's enough for now.
Cavallo Offline
#32 Posted: Thu, Apr 22 2004, 7:45 AM EST
Joined: 01-05-2004
Posts: 2,796
christ didn't offer a cushy happy place in life. he offers a challenge -- a huge challenge -- that permeates every aspect of life and how we live it.

it's not good enough, for example, to just do x, y and z. what's in your heart about it? what are you thinking about? what's your attitude? christ raised the bar considerably and gave us ONE rule: to love (love god, love others, love ourselves). every other possible combination of rules are fulfilled when we follow that one simple but far from easy rule.

some folks see god as a cushy, gushy teddy bear -- all soft clouds and pastel ranbows. others see god as vengeance and thunder and lightning -- which will strike down anyone such folks think "deserves it."

people pick and choose the "rules" to follow. one example -- condemn homosexuals to the point of passing national laws, but where's the hue and cry about people who eat cheeseburgers? pound on the same rules used to persecute one group, but ignore those who mix beef and dairy. eating a cheeseburger is a sin, sin, sin! but people are not passionately boycotting mcdonald's for propagating this sinfulness and ruining morals with their shameless advertising and recruitment of more folks to fall into sin and eat their cheeseburgers!

old testament stuff? sure, but you'll still see people dredging it up to use as "justification."

where are the church campaigns to make sure that divorced people have no right to marry? or adulterers?

no. many folks don't rightly care what the "rules" are -- and certainly seem to not get it about the ONLY one christ gave us. instead, folks pick and choose based upon their OWN ideas of "right and wrong" -- then they skim through the bible and dig up a passage here and there that they can twist around to justify their own personal peeves and dislikes.
fritzthetiger Offline
#33 Posted: Sat, Apr 24 2004, 1:40 PM EST
Joined: 04-03-2004
Posts: 314
What's this about divorcees marrying?? Against? I'd like to know what you meant.
Fritz
BongoSTL Offline
#34 Posted: Mon, Apr 26 2004, 5:38 PM EST
Joined: 03-30-2004
Posts: 236
I'm not a believer in it (as the belief in Karma inherently requires a belief in rebirth), but I am a abit of a specialist in Buddhism (just got back from a 6 month academic trip to India, Tibet and Nepal) to do research on Tibetan Buddhism (had a wonderfully interesting (can you feel the sarcasim???) 40 page thesis on "The Problems in Tibetan Democracy Due to its close Relationship with the Tibetan Religious Establishment"). Anyhow, if anyone has any questions (or if someone wants an object blessed by the Dalai Lama the next time we trade) email me at BongoSTL at hotmail dot com
Cavallo Offline
#35 Posted: Tue, Apr 27 2004, 10:12 AM EST
Joined: 01-05-2004
Posts: 2,796
fritz: the new testament verse (one of them anyway) i refer to is this, where christ said: "Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery."
jackconrad Offline
#36 Posted: Tue, Apr 27 2004, 1:16 PM EST
Joined: 06-09-2003
Posts: 67,461
GHia VW
Robby Offline
#37 Posted: Tue, Apr 27 2004, 3:46 PM EST
Joined: 10-30-2002
Posts: 5,067
Cavallo, I agree about the picking and choosing, but what about these rules;

1. Women should not talk in church, but rather they should ask their husbands for clarification if they have any questions?

2. Women should no adorn themselves... That means, no jewelry, no makeup...

3. You will know my followers because they will drink deadly poisons and they will not harm them, they will handle deadly serpents and they will not be harmed...

The problem with literal word for word interpretation is that you get fundamentalist churches where they swig strychnine and handle snakes! And no, I don't think those women wear makeup either... Maybe they got it right?
BongoSTL Offline
#38 Posted: Tue, Apr 27 2004, 7:02 PM EST
Joined: 03-30-2004
Posts: 236
interestingly enough...a lot of those 3 selections that you pointed out come from some of the letters of Paul that were not really written by Paul, but added by a later redactor (we know they're not paul's, we just don't know whose they are...). I believe only 7 (off the top of my head) of the letters are truly Pauline...
JonR Offline
#39 Posted: Tue, Apr 27 2004, 8:43 PM EST
Joined: 02-19-2002
Posts: 9,740
Let us return to the subject "Karma". In my 60 years I have been told 6 times that I have good Karma. Each time I was told that I had good Karma it was followed with the word " Dude " and the question " You have any good **** on you man ". LoL JonR
Cavallo Offline
#40 Posted: Tue, Apr 27 2004, 9:38 PM EST
Joined: 01-05-2004
Posts: 2,796
robby: also good points. what i understand of the first two points is that they were addressed to a particular church in a particular place where women being noisy during worship was very disruptive. this was the instruction to THOSE women only. however, you're correct that some denominations (usually holiness/charismatics) hold fast to that as "the way it should be" for ALL women.

fritz: there are denominations -- some pretty big ones -- that adhere to this belief that marrying after a divorce = committing the sin of adultery. some believe it so much so that you will be excommunicated if you commit this "sin." many other mainstream christian denominations do not see it that way, though.

bongo: i'm shooting you an email in a few re: india et al.

but anyway -- KARMA! -- whatever name you call it, i do believe in the principle that "what you put out there comes back to you" and magnified at that.

i've just seen it happen far too many times NOT to believe that it occurs. :)
pabloescabar Offline
#41 Posted: Tue, Apr 27 2004, 9:41 PM EST
Joined: 02-25-2005
Posts: 30,183
^
what comes around go's around?
DrMaddVibe Offline
#42 Posted: Wed, Apr 28 2004, 4:22 AM EST
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,610
http://koti.mbnet.fi/reagan/lodger/ilove.html
sketcha Offline
#43 Posted: Wed, Apr 28 2004, 8:02 AM EST
Joined: 03-26-2003
Posts: 3,238
"As yee sew, so shall yee reap."
fritzthetiger Offline
#44 Posted: Wed, Apr 28 2004, 10:36 AM EST
Joined: 04-03-2004
Posts: 314
Robby:

In some churches, a woman defers to her husband and/or man out of love for Christ. It doesn't mean she isn't equal in everything. These churches allow women to speak as long as they don't "lord" over men. Whether or not you agree with them is another issue, but they practice what they preach.

Fritz
Robby Offline
#45 Posted: Wed, Apr 28 2004, 11:21 AM EST
Joined: 10-30-2002
Posts: 5,067
Right, I'm not judging, I'm merely pointing out that literal interpretation has it's snags... Like makeup and earrings. I'll bet there are plenty of men and women with a bumper sticker that says, "the bible says it, I believe it, and that settles it" whose wives wear makeup and jewelry... And they probably don't handle snakes or swig poison either. Don’t get me wrong, I’m a believer, but there are radical Christians just like there are radical Muslims. Look at David Korish (sp) and his followers…
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