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Last post 20 years ago by MACS. 18 replies replies.
Who stole the Republican Party?
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Buckwheat Offline
#1 Posted: Tue, May 11 2004, 4:37 AM EST
Joined: 04-15-2004
Posts: 12,251
Quote
"Dave (A.K.A. Homebrew)
P.S. I am not a liberal, just a disillusioned conservative, wondering who stole my party from me."

Halle-F***n-luiah

I new that I liked you Homebrew!! What has become of our once fiscally responsible, non-obtrusive, government shrinking party? I've been a free thinking, Republican my entire life (which is hard in Kentucky). I have voted in every election that I have been qualified to vote in. I have yet to have a candidate in this election say anything that would inspire me to vote for them. I'll probably write-in McCain again. The one sane voice left in the Republican Party. Did anyone see McCain on the Daily Show last night?
00camper Offline
#2 Posted: Tue, May 11 2004, 5:29 AM EST
Joined: 07-11-2003
Posts: 2,326
Buckwheat,
You're not the only free thinking Republican in Kentucky.

As for who stole the party...I think it was Newt Gingrich.
Thom Offline
#3 Posted: Tue, May 11 2004, 7:15 AM EST
Joined: 12-08-2003
Posts: 6,117
I prescribe to no particular party, but the Libertarians keep appealing to me more and more.

http://www.lp.org/issues/platform/execsumm.html
Robby Offline
#4 Posted: Tue, May 11 2004, 7:32 AM EST
Joined: 10-30-2002
Posts: 5,067
I'll tell you exactly what happened to the GOP.

1. Historically they have been more conservative, for smaller government, for a strong defense, for less taxes, for "life", etc...

2. While there used to be a sharp divide between the Democrats and the Republicans, that divide has been steadily shrinking as far as I can see over the past 20 years.

3. The reason the Republicans become more like the Democrats every year, is because there are core constituencies who will vote for them regardless. Additionally, it's the age old adage of "buying votes". Pork barrel politics make me ill. They go to DC with laudable, egalitarian objectives and end up bringing home a Federally funded water slide? So they lie to their constituents by claiming to be either more liberal or more conservative than they actually are and at the same time, they pander to the other side while trying to govern either more liberal or more conservative than they actually are.

And it’s endemic; it’s arguably pandemic and continues to get worse. The painful truth is that if Mr. Smith does actually go to Washington and say, whoa, we’re spending too much, he’ll be drummed out, ridden out of town on a rail, “shushed” by the more senior members of the party.

Money is too powerful a drug for them to take and dispense to their constituents and they’re all intoxicated and full on addicts…
dbguru Offline
#5 Posted: Tue, May 11 2004, 7:50 AM EST
Joined: 03-06-2002
Posts: 1,300
Wow.... Robby
Guess what!!! I agree with you here...
(What is this world coming too??)

I'm going to smoke a PAM tonight to celebrate this!!!!

DB
Homebrew Offline
#6 Posted: Tue, May 11 2004, 8:50 AM EST
Joined: 02-11-2003
Posts: 11,885
Robby,
Well Said.
BuckWheat,
I'm with you man.
To Everyone Else,
It's time to take back our government, from the special interest. We need real political and election reform. We need a balenced budget amendment. Without all of these things, our country is to go the way of the Roman Empire.
Later
Dave (A.K.A. Homebrew)
bassdude Offline
#7 Posted: Tue, May 11 2004, 10:04 AM EST
Joined: 01-13-2004
Posts: 8,871
hear hear

Robby for Congress.
lukin Offline
#8 Posted: Tue, May 11 2004, 10:15 AM EST
Joined: 03-31-2004
Posts: 2,205
I feel your pain. The last few years the republicans have been steadily moving to the left to take their issues out from under the dems. I want to know why? I vote republican because I believe in a conservative government, not because I want to see a republican controlled congress. I would like to see someone stnading up for what is right for a change. Someone mentioned McCain and while I disagree with his position a lot of the time, I respect him for going against the grain to do what he feels is right. That is good leadership. Instead we have a bunch of followers who don't want to rock the boat in their area. In the end it will do more harm than good, both for them and for us. The thing that really bothers me is that according to the last few elections, America has voted out democrats and cast their vote for republicans, why don't they listen then and stick to their core values? Because when money is involved those values get thrown out the window. Its a shame.

I will say though that though I have a lot of disagreements with Bush in both foreign and domestic policies, the guy at least does what he says he's going to do, which is more than I can say for the rest of them, democrats and republicans alike
dbguru Offline
#9 Posted: Tue, May 11 2004, 1:53 PM EST
Joined: 03-06-2002
Posts: 1,300
Lukin.... I happen to like Robby's characterization but to make the general statement of the GOP moving to the left has a lot of hidden innacuracies. Here is my perspective

I think you'll agree on these GOP core values
1) Less govervnment
2) Fiscal conservatism (reduce spending and pay for the programs you enact with current revenues, not deficits)
3) Peace through strength abroad both militarily and diplomatically.
4) Support the economy by supporting the interests of corporate management.

But then in the 70s the GOP began to embrace the social agenda of the evangelicals and fundamentalists. This didn't change the core values but it did add agenda items and affected the constiuency in the leadership in the GOP. This evoution replaced the leadership from those traditional conservatives who were true to those values above to the neo-conservatives who basically put social/faith agendas in front of the non-religious core GOP values. As this evolved some of these faith based social agenda items grew subtly in conflict with a lot of these core GOP values.

But politics is much more about popularity than values and to gain popularity the GOP went in favor of leaders more apealing to these new (neo) Social/Faith based conservatives, which the current media in our country now calls neo-cons. In return this group became much more faithful in their following GOP leadership who embraced Evangelical/Fundamentalist values.... This leadership manifests itself in the government with the Dubya entouage and in the supporting press by Limbaugh, Hannity, Pat Robertson, Falwell and others. These are the neo-cons.

What we now have is a classic "Faith without Knowledge" calamity. Faith and Knowlege together is essential but Faith without Knowlegde is blind and Knowledge without Faith is meaningless. Somehow the neo-cons have been faithful of their leadership to the point of not recognizing where this has been leading them. The blinders have been on for years. This is obviously true in Iraq in that this administration counted on their faith in things working out over objective intelligence. The blinders are on in many other areas as well. The Neo-cons expend a lot of effort to prevent thoughtful discourse on a varietly of important issues that should be a major concern to all of us. Distraction, Running the clock on issues, pointing fingers of blame away from themselves are all forms of blinders.

Perhaps it has even gotten to the point where even Democrats are more faithful to traditional GOP core values than the neo-cons. (This is a personal belief which has esentially turned me into a Democrat) What traditional conservatives believe is not even a factor anymore as the Neo-cons have taken over. There are no more Goldwater's, Eisenhowers even Reagan and Bob Dole types who have much say. Traditional GOP core values ring hollow and hypocritical with the current neo-con leadership.

To generalize... I really believe many Dems have moved to the right on many things, toward more traditional conservative values outside of the Social/Faith based stuff. This is directly attributable to Clinton's influence and to a lesser degree by Gore, Lieberman, and followers. GWBush if anything has created a bit of a backlash among many traditional Dems to swing more left (out of hatred) The neo-cons on the other hand have embarked on a journey that goes in another direction entirely, pretty much abandoning the traditional conservatives. Either you can call this radically right or in my opinion they have leaped off the Left-right spectrum in a blind faith without knowledge journey that I think is a very dengerous unpredictible direction. Although I recognize this is a huge constituency, I don't think it really has a sound sense of direction.
lukin Offline
#10 Posted: Tue, May 11 2004, 2:10 PM EST
Joined: 03-31-2004
Posts: 2,205
Dbguru,
I like your take on the "religious right" aspect of politics. Being a christian myself I have to say that I am pretty much disgusted with how the religious leaders have involved themselves in politics. My point on the GOP moving to the left are more in the line of social issues that the bush andmin. and republicans in congress have been so keen on getting passed for example the prescription drug plan, illegal immigrant amnesty program, and other programs in which the republicans have taken a small part of the dems steam (since these are some of the issues they are always harping on). The problem with this is that they have saddled us with more social programs and more government, something that goes contrary to everything the republican party should stand for. You are right that there are no more Goldwaters, Reagans, or Dole's out there and that is a shame.
Its funny because you see the republicans as moving to the extreme right and yet I see certain democratic leaders moving to the extreme left such as Kennedy, Hillary, Byrd, and Daschle (I would include Kerry but he is only in the extreme left if the polls dictate that he should be). Bill Clinton, Gore and Leiberman certainly pulled democrats over to the right to the point that there wasn't much difference between the two parties, but I think that the hatred for Bush and the war have made democratic leadership go so far to the extreme left that they are hurting the party. Its almost as if because the republicans have taken a small peice of their issues, they have nowhere to turn but further to the left.
MACS Offline
#11 Posted: Tue, May 11 2004, 3:05 PM EST
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,943
I think I once said this here... but if not, here goes:

Everyone has a vice and everyone has a price. Whoever we send to DC is going to go with great intentions and come back with a pocket full of something... money, or what have you... money corrupts, power corrupts, and folks... we are ALL corruptable.

This is why Jesus came down here to die for us. We cannot be trusted with our very own souls.
(Christian here)

I think this was said above, in different words... :^)
BongoSTL Offline
#12 Posted: Tue, May 11 2004, 4:14 PM EST
Joined: 03-30-2004
Posts: 236
I'm not convinced that the Republicans have moved left. Instead I think they have moved (through the constant force of the Christian Coalition) to big, obtrusive government. Really, a classic-Repbulican should be Pro-Choice (as in the GOVERNMENT shouldn't determine these things), Pro-Gay Marry--(not that they would support it one way or the other, but that the GOVERNMENT should mind its own business), Anti-School Prayer (see previous reasoning)...

Anyhow, I think the Christian Coalition has stolen the republican party away from true conservatives and given it to social conservatives.

D
lukin Offline
#13 Posted: Tue, May 11 2004, 5:05 PM EST
Joined: 03-31-2004
Posts: 2,205
Macs
nobel peace prize winner and political prisoner Suu Kyi once wrote, "it is not power that corrupts, but fear. Fear of losing power corrupts those who weild it"

BongoSTL,
interesting point. The arguement could be made from the other side too. That government should not prevent a child from praying in school, or should not interfere with the sanctity of marriage. I dont want to touch the abortion issue because I have never seen anyone change their mind concerning this issue. However my point is that in the case of gay marriage and abortion it was government interference that made them legal, and in the case of school prayer it was government interference that made it illegal. This is not to say that I am for or against any of these policies it is only to say that the arguement can go both ways. I don't want prayer in schools, but I don't think that anyone should prevent praying in school especially the government.
Buckwheat Offline
#14 Posted: Tue, May 11 2004, 6:08 PM EST
Joined: 04-15-2004
Posts: 12,251
Good points by all. I also feel that the religious right has hijacked the Republican Party. I strongly feel that all government should be un-obtrusive. Stay out of my children's school, my church, my bedroom, my hospital, and my humidor!!! Government for the people, not against the people. Pay taxes to get services, protect our stuff (e.g. country, etc...); pretty easy concepts.

Maybe the question should've been who stole our government?
Robby Offline
#15 Posted: Tue, May 11 2004, 7:41 PM EST
Joined: 10-30-2002
Posts: 5,067
God created the universe, man created religion...
uncleb Offline
#16 Posted: Tue, May 11 2004, 7:49 PM EST
Joined: 11-13-2002
Posts: 1,326
**THREADJACK**

I must commend you all. This is the first political post I have seen on this forum in quite some time that is actually a constructive discussion instead of a derisive argumentative namecallingfest(??). Kudos to you all.

**THREADJACK OFF**
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#17 Posted: Tue, May 11 2004, 9:38 PM EST
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
what has happened in my absence? has this board suddenly become rational?

i find myself, not only agreeing with everyone, but also finding a respect for everyone that has posted this thread.

i'm going to have to decide if i want to try to bring the level of discourse back down to the gutter level, where i find so much comfort.
jjohnson28 Offline
#18 Posted: Tue, May 11 2004, 9:57 PM EST
Joined: 09-12-2000
Posts: 7,914
OK uncleb/RICKAMAVEN STFU! The both of you!

Better?

JJ :0)
MACS Offline
#19 Posted: Wed, May 12 2004, 7:16 AM EST
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,943
George Carlin once said of the republican party...

"How can these people be against abortion AND against gay marriage? Who has less abortions than people who are gay?!!?!!"

He's a hardcore liberal fanatic (imo) but he IS funny.
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