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Last post 19 years ago by usahog. 28 replies replies.
ISN'T THIS ILLEGAL IN A FREE SOCIETY?
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#1 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
Army Issues Order to Stop U.S. Soldiers from leaving
Jun 2, 12:57 PM (ET)

By Will Dunham
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. Army has issued orders preventing thousands of soldiers
designated to serve in Iraq or Afghanistan from leaving the military even when their volunteer
service commitment ends, officials said on Wednesday.

The latest "stop loss" and "stop movement" orders, broader than others issued previously, were a
further sign of increasing stress on the Army as the Pentagon strives to maintain adequate troop
levels in the two conflicts.

Lt. Gen. Franklin Hagenbeck, the Army's personnel chief, told reporters it would be wrong to see
the move as a symptom of desperation but acknowledged that the Army was "stretched."

The Army issued the orders for active-duty soldiers and reservists in all units that will deploy
outside the United States for future missions in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Hagenbeck said the orders were open-ended, and could be in place for several years while the
Army reorganizes itself into smaller, more-interchangeable units. The orders were meant to
protect the cohesiveness of deployed units by keeping together soldiers who have worked and
trained together, he said.

The "stop loss" order means that soldiers who otherwise could leave the service when their
volunteer commitments expire, starting 90 days before being sent, will be compelled to remain to
the end of their overseas deployment and up to another 90 days after they come home.

A "stop movement" order blocks soldiers from shifting to new assignments during the restricted
period.

The Army previously has issued such orders covering some troops in the two conflicts. Since the
attacks on the United States on Sept. 11, 2001, some 45,000 soldiers have been affected by such
orders, Hagenbeck said.

ALL-VOLUNTEER MILITARY

Critics argue that preventing soldiers from leaving the military at the end of their contractual
obligation was a breach of trust, and undermined the concept of the all-volunteer military.

Without "stop loss," the Army would be forced to continuously replace thousands of soldiers in
deployed units as their service commitments expired, Hagenbeck said.

"The rationale is to have cohesive, trained units going to war together. What you don't want to
have happen is to walk out on the battlefield and meet each other for the first time and shake
hands. And that's happened to me and all my predecessors, and we cannot do that. That puts
soldiers lives at risk," Hagenbeck said.

Troops were eager to go to places like Iraq and Afghanistan, he said. "Soldiers want to go do this.
This, by and large, is why the joined the Army," Hagenbeck said.

Army spokesmen were unable to give a figure for how many soldiers would be affected beyond
saying it would be in the thousands.

The Pentagon has already taken steps to meet its plans to keep the total of 138,000 troops in Iraq
to the end of 2005.

About 20,000 troops in Iraq were ordered to remain three months beyond their promised
departure date. The Pentagon is moving to Iraq 3,600 soldiers from South Korea, where they
have guarded against aggression from North Korea. And the Army is considering deploying units
that until now have merely played the role of "enemy forces" in training exercises in the United
States.





Charlie Offline
#2 Posted:
Joined: 06-16-2002
Posts: 39,751
No, I guess not!

Charlie
dbguru Offline
#3 Posted:
Joined: 03-06-2002
Posts: 1,300
I read this too.
The draft is just around the corner.
bassdude Offline
#4 Posted:
Joined: 01-13-2004
Posts: 8,871
and who signed the bill for the draft provision? If there had not been so much down sizing under the prior regime do you think this would even be an issue?

Lots of good soldiers were forced out due to overstrength MOS or were just let out because they asked. Yes I saw this first hand in DC.
JonR Offline
#5 Posted:
Joined: 02-19-2002
Posts: 9,740
Army Issues Order to Stop U.S. Soldiers from leaving
Jun 2, 12:57 PM (ET)

By Will Dunham
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. Army has issued orders preventing thousands of soldiers....zzzzzzSNORTzzzzzzzzzSNORTZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#6 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
JonR

sorry we are boring you.
bloody spaniard Offline
#7 Posted:
Joined: 03-14-2003
Posts: 43,802
LOL
wekikther4wer Offline
#8 Posted:
Joined: 07-12-2003
Posts: 408
I feel for those soldiers who were planning on leaving and now can't. But according to our C in C, "we are at war".
dbguru Offline
#9 Posted:
Joined: 03-06-2002
Posts: 1,300
Hey Rick did ya read link to the 14 points of Fascism i posted in another thread.... Maybe worth a copy and paste?? what do you think?

DB
CWFoster Offline
#10 Posted:
Joined: 12-12-2003
Posts: 5,414
According to Kerry, we're not! But I seem to remember that within 24 hours of Pearl Harbor, all leaves were cancelled, and all separations were postponed indefinitely. So why would this day and age be any different than sixty years ago? Just to make some liberals feel good? I am a professional. I serve my country proudly. I get kinda upset when I hear some of the younger set griping because the military isn't the Boy Scouts with a paycheck and health and dental benefits. If you get deployed, plan on staying around till the dance is over. And dance with the one that brung ya!
usahog Offline
#11 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
Todays Military Breaks this down by Career Fields Needed... and has in the past extended inlistments to meet the manning.. each and every military member who signs the Contract with the Military has a clause that intitles the Military to extend their enlistments beyond their respected commitment in the event deemed needed.. this is allowed because a member also agree's to after their commitment to a 2 year "non status" each branch has the proper name for this... help me out Vets? in the Air Force it's "inactive reserve status" (subject to call up)or in some cases extentions... Yea it would piss me off (for a short time)if this happened to myself and probably does many others... but hey I signed ThEe PaPeR.... Damn I'm gunna miss this stuff LOL

Hog
usahog Offline
#12 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
with this being "Army" as the selected branch one could go a little further... like Kerry did in Nam...

Carry a Notepad and writing utensil with you.. and while on Duty... driving jeep.. fall out while driving scrape arm till bleeds grab your buddy as a witness to event.. put yourself in for purple heart... get up early wake buddy... drag him to the head.. proceed to shave "cutting yourself" witness sign.. second purple heart... wait for proper moment to have to address your commander... get good running start, pull (YANK) door open as your standing in front of it.. take shot to nose.. Bleeding profusly with witnesses... Paperwork for number 3 purple heart.. your on your way to Senate Floor and look at your Bright Horizens!!!!

Hog
CWFoster Offline
#13 Posted:
Joined: 12-12-2003
Posts: 5,414
ROTFLMFAO!
JonR Offline
#14 Posted:
Joined: 02-19-2002
Posts: 9,740
ZZZZZZZZZZZZSNORTzzzzzzzzzzumph hmmm er I'm awake !

Good one Hog, what makes it funny is that it is most likely true.

JonR
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#15 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
dbguru

please refresh my memory about the 14 points. was it the link to the freepers?
usahog Offline
#16 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
what did I post chopped Baloni??

you almost draw me to trish's bar a soap... ****!!!!

Hog
dbguru Offline
#17 Posted:
Joined: 03-06-2002
Posts: 1,300
Rick,
Here are the 14 points from
http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm

check the link out as it contains many other links substantiating the claim

1.) Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.
and let's not forget the failed "Bring 'em on!"

2.) Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.
July 1, 2003: U.S. Suspends Military Aid to Nearly 50 Countries: The United States on Tuesday suspended military assistance to nearly 50 countries, because they have supported the International Criminal Court and failed to exempt Americans from possible prosecution.
Outsourcing Torture: Contractors act as interrogators: Defense Department turned to private sources to question prisoners for intelligence gathering.
US has at least 9000 prisoners in secret detention
Who is a terrorist under the PATRIOT ACT
Guantanamo Eyes Possible Execution Chamber

3.) Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial, ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.
A scared populace is a compliant populace Terrorists are likely planning U.S. attacks, a U.S. Homeland Security official said Friday.
Slander: Liberal Lies About the American Right
How U.S. Attorney-General, a Christian Evangelist With Anti-Islamic Views On Record, Is Waging War On American Muslims
Dr. James J. Zogby: A co-ordinated and bigoted assault The anti-Arab campaign being waged today in the U.S. is an organised multi-pronged effort targeting a variety of Arab leaders, institutions and Islam.
Congressman: Muslims 'enemy amongst us'

4.) Supremacy of the Military
Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.
If you haven't seen the Oreo flash animation yet, see it here


5.) Rampant Sexism
The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy.
Justice Dept. Demands Abortion Records
W. David Hager chairman of the FDA's Reproductive Health Drugs Advisory Committee does not prescribe contraceptives for single women, does not do abortions, will not prescribe RU-486 and will not insert IUDs. Hager believes that headaches, PMS and eating disorders can be cured by reading Scripture.
Bush Administration to Extend Health Coverage to Fetuses but Not to Pregnant Women

6.) Controlled Mass Media
Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.
Michael Powell: The FCC's Embattled Chairman
Fibbing It Up at Fox
If it's allowed to stand, an FCC ruling will feed media merger mania
Articles published by American outlets suppressed in their own country

7.) Obsession with National Security
Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8.) Religion and Government are Intertwined
Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.
Religious networks broadcasting Bush's White House prayer event
Thou shalt be like Bush: What makes this recently established, right-wing Christian college unique are the increasingly close - critics say alarmingly close - links it has with the Bush administration and the Republican establishment.
Presidential Prayer Team
US is 'battling Satan' says general
US soldiers in Iraq asked to pray for Bush
Park Service Continues to Push Creationist Theory at Grand Canyon and other nat'l parks

9.) Corporate Power is Protected
The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.
Halliburton, Bechtel, and the Carlyle group: Why were lied into war
Bush's talent for cronyism: foxes guarding the henhouse
Bush Administration Exempts Oil Industry From Clean Water Act
Controversial drilling method may be protected Energy bill compromise would exempt 'hydraulic fracturing'

10.) Labor Power is Suppressed
Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.
Organized labor locks horns with White House Union leaders are working to displace GOP candidates

2/17/00: President Bush Attacks Organized Labor Bush attacked organized labor Saturday, issuing orders effectively reducing how much money unions can spend for political activities and opening up government contracts to non-union bidding.
March 2000: President Bush signed his name to four executive orders on organized labor last month, including one that cuts the money unions will have for political campaign spending.
Congress and the Department of Labor are trying to change the rules on overtime pay, eliminating the 40 hour work week, taking eligibility for overtime pay away from millions of workers, and replacing time and a half pay with comp days.

11.) Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.
Bush's new economic plan cuts funding for arts, education
NEA vows to undo President Bush's education programs
Artists from all over the world are being refused entry to the US on security grounds.

12.) Obsession with Crime and Punishment
Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations
U.S. Patriot Act Summary of fascist parts
EFF Analysis of "Patriot II"

13.) Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.
Bush Cronyism: Foxes Guarding the henhouse
Iran-Contra Felons Get Good Jobs from Bush
Big Iraq Reconstruction Contracts Went To Big Donors
The companies making the most off the new Medicare contracts also donated the most to the GOP

14. Fraudulent Elections
Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.
the 2000 election
How To Rig An Election In The United States
Scoop: Diebold Memos Disclose Florida 2000 E-Voting Fraud
Election officials all over the country are erecting illegal barriers to keep young voters from casting ballots. From New Hampshire to California, officials have designed complex questionnaires that prevent college students from registering, hired high-powered attorneys to keep them off the rolls, shut down polling places on campuses and even threatened to arrest and imprison young voters
This picture is what stopped the ballot recounts in Florida shortly after it seemed that legitimate President Gore had a lead. The "citizens" started what was later called "the preppy riot". Screaming, yelling, pounding on the walls, these "outraged citizens" intimidated the polling officials to halt the court mandated recount. A closer look reveals who they really were. They were bussed and flown in at Republican lawmakers expense. Some even flew in on Tom Delay's private plane.
donutboy2000 Offline
#18 Posted:
Joined: 11-20-2001
Posts: 25,000
The black helicopters are circling.
CWFoster Offline
#19 Posted:
Joined: 12-12-2003
Posts: 5,414
4.) Supremacy of the Military
Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.
If you haven't seen the Oreo flash animation yet, see it here

WOW! Hey Hog, you seen any of that 'increased funding' yet? Hasn't made it to my OPTAR!
MACS Offline
#20 Posted:
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,908
I gotta second what usahog said. Navy did a stop loss on me (military police) after 9/11. Didn't affect me, because I sure wasn't planning on leaving, but guys who were eligible for retirement had to stay until the stop loss was lifted. It is part of the job. It is in the fine print too.

This is not an issue, at least with me, and since I am currently active duty, my opinion on THIS matter is worth more than yours. :-)
bassdude Offline
#21 Posted:
Joined: 01-13-2004
Posts: 8,871
Army IRR irregular ready reserve.
stlbluesaddict Offline
#22 Posted:
Joined: 10-08-2003
Posts: 336
Stop-Loss and Stop-Movement are not new. In fact, the Air Force instituted the policy when Afghanistan first kicked off. It has since been lifted. It stopped retirements and separations all together. It's not a new concept, just not used that often.
CanyonDVM Offline
#23 Posted:
Joined: 10-26-2002
Posts: 259
I believe that the answer to this question is in the contract you sign upon enlistment(or at least I did). I suspect the Army has a lawyer or 2 that has read the contract and what they are doing is legal.
Cavallo Offline
#24 Posted:
Joined: 01-05-2004
Posts: 2,796
as i understand it, ALL branches have stop loss/stop movement abilities -- it's definitely nothing new.

military personnel know going in about SL/SM orders and that it can happen to them.

my best friend just missed getting stop-lossed and having to stay in the navy (she was a nurse and wanted to go back into civvy practice and make some $ after doing USN for 4 years -- which she did believing it was her duty to put one hitch into serving her country. if she would have been SL'ed into staying, yes, it would suck, but she was very willing to do so after 9/11.

her husband, USN desert storm vet, had stop loss orders for a short time as well after he came home from that war.

this isn't new, it's not illegal, it's not shocking (to troopers anyway). it's part of the risk each one makes when s/he signs on uncca sam's dotted line.
Charlie Offline
#25 Posted:
Joined: 06-16-2002
Posts: 39,751
Nothing new here that ANY vet should know about! Sorry Rick, but you must have been in the Canadian Air Force or Italian Army!

LMAO

Charlie
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#26 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
Charlie

i enlisted for 8 years, 4 active, and 4 inactive unless i was recalled to active duty. i was honorably discharged in the late 60's.

because i was discriminated against because of my height, i was not elligible for ocs or flight training.

i was tall enough to volunteer as look out during search missions. i think they had me sit on a cushion to look out the window.
penzt8 Offline
#27 Posted:
Joined: 06-05-2000
Posts: 1,771
I was bored and felt like doing a little research. There is no specific bill dealing with stop loss because that was a name that was adopted later. What I found was a 1974 bill that gave power to the President that:

"Provides that in time of war, or of national emergency declared by Congress or the President after December 19, 1950, the President may suspend such provisions relating to promotion, separation, and retirement."

The bill (HR 12405) included a variety of other personnel related matters but I believe this is the provision that gives the president the power to suspend separations.

It was introduced in congress on Jan 30 1974 by Representative F. Edward Hebert (D) (chairman of armed services committee)

Robby Offline
#28 Posted:
Joined: 10-30-2002
Posts: 5,067
You must be at least this tall to ride...
usahog Offline
#29 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
Penzt, I seen something relating to the stop loss directly but it was awhile back 8-10 months ago dealing with AF regulations into specific career feilds being chosen for stop loss and call backs... somehow with these regulations it breaks it down to each branch of service on whole groups or just select career feilds the dod website may give more info into this one??

Hog
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