robby: got it. :)
let me clarify -- i think what was done at the prison was flat-out wrong, and those responsible for it need to answer for their actions.
hog, all the photos have not been released for public consumption. the ones that haven't been released have not seen light because they depict -- according to comments of those who have seen them (rep and dem congress members) -- rape and murder. provide you a source? i can't; they've not been released -- all we have to go on is what's been reported by those who have seen the photos and condemned them. i don't have the time or energy to go googling to find each and every instance of this being said, bro. believe it or don't believe it. personally, i hope those images are NEVER released to the public; not one bit of good for anyone would come of it, only more harm.
could i still be your friend if i knew you had beheaded a man? it depends, russ. if you did that to someone you KNEW to be a noncombatant, then it would be a challenge. i'd want to know why you did it.
if you beheaded someone who either was or you believed was an enemy combatant, i'd have no problem with it whatsoever.
i have friends who have killed people many times over in various situations. i don't know how many japanese my father killed as a marine in the south pacific island hopping of WWII, no clue how many vietnamese lives my brothers took in their service as cavalry and paratrooper in that era. i do know that my father strangled one man to death in his war. i do not consider him a murderer for having done so. if i'd been in his position, i would hope that i would have had the strength and fortitude to prevail in hand-to-hand combat as he did, though.
did anyone die as a result of the part i played in furthering military technology at USAF's armstrong military research lab? i don't think so, but i don't know. if it had such an impact, i pray that more were saved than lost as a result. i pray our airmen and other beneficiaries of that research were more capable of doing their jobs effectively. since we're not yet flying 100% virtually piloted aircraft, i doubt it had much effect at all. but i can tell you that the aging shuttle astronauts can now read their monitors a bit more clearly as a result! lol
there is the "fog of war" factor to consider, and i understand it -- in theory if not in practice. that is the fog of WAR -- not just the fog of COMBAT, too.
i believe that the vast, vast majority of our military personnel do the best they possibly can at any given point in time based on their training, their orders and their personal fortitude as american troops.
HOWEVER...
i do not believe in the effectiveness of torture (or rape or murder). was it effective for the viet cong to torture, rape and kill *our* POWs? can you say that the VC were justified in what they did to *our* men in POW camps?
there are effective tactics that have played out over and over and over again as being effective in extracting information from enemy personnel. it's long, tedious work, but it provides us with ACCURATE information that we can actually USE.
torture is a short-cut to getting an ANSWER -- any answer. do you think our POWs were sincere when they signed those "i hate america" forms after being tortured? if so, then you believe that torture is effective and will save lives. i don't believe that for a minute.
torture produces an action, yes. put the shocks to a man's balls for a long enough time, and not only will his body suffer damage for the rest of his life, but he will tell you ***ANYTHING*** HE THINKS YOU WANT TO HEAR THAT WILL MAKE YOU STOP.
separate the desire for revenge against these animals with the desire for ACCURATE, HELPFUL INFORMATION.
i do not blame ANYONE for wanting to see these )@(#*$)@#( torn apart limb from limb for their parts in the deaths of men like pearl, berg, johnson and so many others.
i would personally have no qualms at all about taking off the head of a man responsible for those killings, responsible for kidnapping, responsible for torturing, raping and killing ordinary iraqi citizens, responsible for ANY part of the events of 9/11.
still be your friend? hog, i would salute you -- IF you beheaded any of the above and a few others beside.
but if you anally raped a prisoner in abu g, i would have no choice but to condemn your actions as being unnecessary, unhelpful and ineffective in doing anything to advance our cause, or "save lives" as a result.
we have ways of extracting truthful, useful information from prisoners. even if i supported torture, torture DOES. NOT. WORK.
again, to all -- separate your desire for revenge from what it REALLY takes to get useful information from prisoners. if you want to know what methods DO work, i'd be glad to elucidate.