America's #1 Online Cigar Auction
first, best, biggest!

Last post 19 years ago by fritzthetiger. 28 replies replies.
IS THIS WHAT WE HAVE BECOME??
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#1 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
Molly Ivins

The day the Constitution died
June 8, 2004: Ashcroft's coronation of George W. Bush


AUSTIN, Texas -- When, in future, you find yourself wondering, "Whatever happened to the Constitution?" you will want to go back and look at June 8, 2004. That was the day the attorney general of the United States -- a.k.a. "the nation's top law enforcement officer" -- refused to provide the Senate Judiciary Committee with his department's memos concerning torture.
In order to justify torture, these memos declare that the president is bound by neither U.S. law nor international treaties. We have put ourselves on the same moral level as Saddam Hussein, the only difference being quantity. Quite literally, the president may as well wear a crown -- forget that "no man is above the law" jazz. We used to talk about "the imperial presidency" under Nixon, but this is the real thing.

The Pentagon's legal staff concurred in this incredible conclusion. In a report printed by The Wall Street Journal, "Bush administration lawyers contended last year that the president wasn't bound by laws prohibiting torture and that government agents who might torture prisoners at his direction couldn't be prosecuted by the Justice Department. ...

"The report outlined U.S. laws and international treaties forbidding torture, and why those restrictions might be overcome by national security considerations or legal technicalities."

The report was complied by a group appointed by Department of Defense General Counsel William J. Haynes II, who has since been nominated by Bush for the federal appellate bench. "Air Force General Counsel Mary Walker headed the group, which comprised top civilian and uniformed lawyers from each military branch and consulted with the Justice Department, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the Defense Intelligence Agency and other intelligence agencies. It isn't known if President Bush has ever seen the report."

When members of the Senate Judiciary Committee questioned Ashcroft about his department's input, he simply refused to provide the memos, without offering any legal rationale. He said President Bush had "made no order that would require or direct the violation" of laws or treaties. His explanation was that the United States is at war. "You know I condemn torture," he told Sen. Joe Biden. "I don't think it's productive, let alone justified."

But another memo written by former Assistant Attorney General Jay S. Bybee, now a federal appeals court judge in California, establishes a basis for the use of torture for senior Al Qaeda operatives in custody of the CIA. I am not one to leap to conclusions, but it seems quite clear how whatever perverted standards allowed at Guantanamo Bay jumped across the water to Abu Ghraib prison. Maj. Gen. Geoffrey D. Miller, commander at Gitmo, was dispatched last August to Abu Ghraib to give advice about how to get information out of prisoners. "Miller's recommendations prompted a shift in the interrogation and detention procedures there. Military intelligence officers were given greater authority in the prison, and military police guards were asked to help gather information about the detainees," according to The New York Times.

Among the legal memos that circulated within the administration in 2002, one is by White House counsel Alberto Gonzalez, famously declaring the Geneva Convention "quaint," and another from the CIA asked for an explicit understanding that the administration's public pledge to abide by the spirit of the Geneva Convention did not apply to its operatives. The only department consistently opposing these legal "arguments" was State. In April 2002, Secretary Rumsfeld sent a memo to Gen. James T. Hill outlining 24 permitted interrogation techniques, four of which were considered so stressful as to require Rumsfeld's explicit approval before they were used.

It has been apparent for some time that the abuses at Abu Ghraib were not isolated instances -- torture from Afghanistan to Gitmo to Iraq has so far resulted in 25 deaths now under investigation. As the late Jacabo Timmermann, the Argentine journalist who was tortured during "the dirty war," said, "When you are being tortured, it doesn't really matter to you if your torturers are authoritarian or totalitarian." I doubt it helps any if they're supposed to be bringing democracy, either. And as Ashcroft said, it isn't productive.

The damage is incalculable. When America puts out its annual report on human rights abuses, we will be a laughingstock. I suggest a special commission headed by Sen. John McCain to dig out everyone responsible, root and branch. If the lawyers don't cooperate, perhaps we should try stripping them, anally raping them and dunking their heads under water until they think they're drowning, and see if that helps.

And I think it is time for citizens to take some responsibility, as well. Is this what we have come to? Is this what we want our government to do for us? Oh and by way, to my fellow political reporters who keep repeating that Bush is having a wonderful week: Why don't you think about what you stand for?

eleltea Offline
#2 Posted:
Joined: 03-03-2002
Posts: 4,562
On my list of things to worry about, the constitutional rights of captured terrorists ranks at the bottom.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#3 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,635
I don't even waste ink putting THEM on a list!
SteveS Offline
#4 Posted:
Joined: 01-13-2002
Posts: 8,751
I frankly didn't read Rick's copy 'n paste ... seeing who wrote the article, I know all I need to know about it ... (someone break out the picture of the dead horse being beaten here) ... she has found yet another topic to flog GWB over ... and whatever the line of thought she expressed in her little collumn, it is an Ivory Soap % certainty that I disagree ... about 180 degree difference of opinion if the past decade of her Bush-bashing is any indication ...

Reading anything written by Molly Ivins is guaranteed to raise my blood pressure ... I ignore medical opinion and continue to smoke cigars, but cannot, in good conscience, ignore ALL medical advise, so I read something else in the paper while smoking my cigar
Robby Offline
#5 Posted:
Joined: 10-30-2002
Posts: 5,067
I started to read it and then stopped and will leave Mr. Maven with this question.

Rick, do you think you should know and approve of everything the CIA, NSA, etc... does?

Do you think that there are "parts" of the Government that may at times need to do things that you or I or the press my find "unseemly?"

Do you think that these folks may from time to time find it appropriate to "take care of" someone? Quietly...

Do you think that this is the only time in history this has happened if it is happening now?

Do you think that under Kerry (God forbid), the same would not be true?

Do you think the Islamo-terrorists give a rats a$$ about you, decency, the Geneva convention, etc…? After all, they killed 3000+ innocent men women and children, didn’t they?

Do you think that if I kicked you hard in the nads, and then gouged you in the eyes that you should “box” me? Marquee of Queensbury rules and all that?

Do you think you'll respond to these questions? I don't...
Robby Offline
#6 Posted:
Joined: 10-30-2002
Posts: 5,067
Rick, two more for you not to answer but to make you look bad;

1. Ever heard of the Moshe Hadean? (sp)

2. Do you support Israel?
Robby Offline
#7 Posted:
Joined: 10-30-2002
Posts: 5,067
^
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#8 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
robby and others

apparently my premise is correct, we have become them.
Robby Offline
#9 Posted:
Joined: 10-30-2002
Posts: 5,067
Here you go libby, grow a pair and answer the questions.
Robby Offline
#10 Posted:
Joined: 10-30-2002
Posts: 5,067
liberal coward...
Robby Offline
#11 Posted:
Joined: 10-30-2002
Posts: 5,067
Ever hear of the Mossad? Do you support Israel? Or are you an anti-semetic Jew?
Robby Offline
#12 Posted:
Joined: 10-30-2002
Posts: 5,067
I'll bet it's the latter...
calavera Offline
#13 Posted:
Joined: 01-26-2002
Posts: 1,868
I don't think that the constitution applies to non-Americans.

As for all those other treaties, don't they apply to soldiers of a foreign country with whom we are at war?

These terrorists do not represent a foreign country, and we are not at war with them. And even if we were, once you intentionally (I realize that civilians accidentally get killed in military actions, but they are not the targets) begin killing civilians, all bets are off. Burn out their eyes and feed them to the pigs.

J
Robby Offline
#14 Posted:
Joined: 10-30-2002
Posts: 5,067
Ever hear of the Mossad? Do you support Israel? Or are you an anti-semetic Jew?
Robby Offline
#15 Posted:
Joined: 10-30-2002
Posts: 5,067
Is the Mossad "them?" Do you support Israel? Or are you an anti-semetic Jew?
eleltea Offline
#16 Posted:
Joined: 03-03-2002
Posts: 4,562
A tale of three videotapes.

Starring Daniel Pearl.

Starring Nick Berg.

Starring a naked muslim captee wearing panties on his head.

Rome is burning. Fiddle on.
rayder1 Offline
#17 Posted:
Joined: 06-02-2002
Posts: 2,226
We get no quarter from them. They get none from us. No matter what we have done to "violate" whatever rights they are perceived to have it is nothing compared to what they (or for that matter most of our allies) do or would do to captured POW's.

We actually hold the high water mark of prisoner treatment.
Robby Offline
#18 Posted:
Joined: 10-30-2002
Posts: 5,067
True Rayder, but some dirtbags would rather focus in with a microscope on any small mistakes to blow them out of proportion in an effort to make us and by association, Bush look bad. They would do this at the expense of our Image, our fight, our victory, this above all else, "Beat Bush" and to hell with America. Does that sound a little sick to you? It does to me.. It sounds down right "un-American"...
anecho Offline
#19 Posted:
Joined: 05-16-2004
Posts: 5
You know what's really "un-american"?
BLIND FAITH!!!
Robby Offline
#20 Posted:
Joined: 10-30-2002
Posts: 5,067
True, anecho, true. You mean like someone who says they'd rather vote for a bag of cement over the current president? What exactly would you call that if not blind?
Robby Offline
#21 Posted:
Joined: 10-30-2002
Posts: 5,067
Anecho, regarding what this thread is actually about, do you believe that we are as bad or evil as the terrorists? Do you believe that the media has blown the whole panties on the head thing out of proportion? Let's compare, shall we? We stack up prisoners (terrorists) naked and put panties on their heads. They kidnap an innocent man and cut his head off. What kind of a person puts that on par with what we did? You? Do you have such “Blind Faith” in John Kerry and the Libby’s who demonize GWB that you would do this?
mhpd Offline
#22 Posted:
Joined: 01-06-2004
Posts: 55
Robby, WHO said we are as bad as the terrorists. Please do not dodge this question and provide some sources, ok?

Or are you just making stuff up?

Which is it: do you have statements to back this up, or did you just make it up to score points with you and...well, just you alone in your computer room.
Robby Offline
#23 Posted:
Joined: 10-30-2002
Posts: 5,067
mhpd, are you sniffing the freeze +P again? Or MKII or Deep Punch? Stay off that $hit dude, it will fry your mind...

In case you did not read Rick's whole post, here's a couple of snippits, try to stay on task...

“torture from Afghanistan to Gitmo to Iraq has so far resulted in 25 deaths now under investigation. “

Ummm, how many deaths were natural? How many of those people were terrorists? How many were directly or indirectly responsible for 9/11? Do you care? (don’t answer, I know the answer is NO! you don’t give a rat’s a$$ about American deaths, only terrorists…) You know, if 25 “people” died while being interrogated, my only concerns would be whether or not we got the information new needed from the terrorist ragheads before they kicked… I’m sure you’d rather read Sadam his Miranda rights rather than see him brought to justice for his crimes against humanity…

“We have put ourselves on the same moral level as Saddam Hussein, the only difference being quantity”

Ok, I’ll refer my previous comment, if someone kills 3,000 people, and then I have to kill 30 people (read guilty people) in order to bring them to justice, is that wrong? Let’s make the numbers 3 million, let’s say they nuke an America city, you still having second thoughts about pulling out the brass knuckles pig?

"The damage is incalculable. When America puts out its annual report on human rights abuses, we will be a laughingstock."

Here you go again, the writer, Rick, and clearly you believe that we, me, our military, etc… Are MUCH worse than any Islamo-terrorist could every hope to be. You’re only agenda is to see Bush unseated and see Kerry in his place. Would it were that Kerry did the exact same $hit that you’re complaining about, you’d turn a blind eye. So your motivation is clear, it’s unambiguous, it’s easy to understand, You’re un-American, plain and simple. You don’t care what happens to America, you only care to see your man in office. That’s sick and you should be ashamed… Sick B@$t@RD!!
Robby Offline
#24 Posted:
Joined: 10-30-2002
Posts: 5,067
This is absolutely what we have become. ABC News Nightline focused their entire show tonight on the "atrocities" done by the Americans against the "detainees". They raised sorted point (without counterpoint) after sorted point. They repeatedly attempted to link George Bush directly to the abuse.

They ignored the fact that we're dealing with terrorists. They ignored how our people are treated when "captured" (read kidnapped and held hostage and then murdered). For all intents and purposes, it was like Baghdad Bob was the executive producer of the piece. It was without a doubt the single most hideous, disgusting, anti-American piece of attack "journalism" and I use the term loosely, that I have EVER seen in my ENTIRE life. This can only mean one thing, they (the left, Ted Kopel, et-al) are getting worried that the flip-flopper may not win. I literally made me sick to my stomach to watch. I believe this was the last straw with me and ABC news... I've watched them reluctantly through the years to get the left view of what's happening. But tonight, they kicked America in the nads one too many times. I am NEVER watching ABC news again "ever".

And before you Libbys try to jump all over me on this, let me pose this hypothetical to you. The people who are being interrogated are sworn enemies of the US, they’ve kidnapped your wife or child or mother, they have them in a hole, and they’re running out of air… And they look at you and say “I want a lawyer MF…” These are terrorists. They would not pi$$ on you if you were on fire. They need to be “handled” in ways we may not find seemly. And we CERTAINLY DON’T NEED TO KNOW ALL OF THE DETAILS OF WHAT IS DONE TO EXTRACT INFORMATION FROM THESE ANIMALS ABOUT THE WHEREABOUTS OF YOUR LOVED ONE BURRIED IN A BOX RUNNING OUT OF AIR!

Wake up people, ABC news is the enemy, they are every bit as against America as Sadam or Osama…
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#25 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
Robby

you poor thing, you have gone over the edge.

Robby Offline
#26 Posted:
Joined: 10-30-2002
Posts: 5,067
Rick, why do you hate the Jews so? What have they done to you? Do they teach you to eat your own? Not that there's anything wrong with that.
428cj Offline
#27 Posted:
Joined: 04-26-2003
Posts: 741
Rickamaven wrote: "you poor thing, you have gone over the edge". Wow, how sad coming from him.
Robby Offline
#28 Posted:
Joined: 10-30-2002
Posts: 5,067
^
fritzthetiger Offline
#29 Posted:
Joined: 04-03-2004
Posts: 314
Rick:
It's not what we have become, but what we were and will be again. If torture is used in there circumstances(not including US citizens) then so be it. We don't have the constitution for the world, but for the USA. Do I like torture; No, but what needs to be done, needs to be done. (Of course this may all be moot if the story isn't true)

Fritz
Users browsing this topic
Guest