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Last post 19 years ago by rayder1. 18 replies replies.
Honest union question..part 2
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JonR Offline
#1 Posted: Thu, Jul 1 2004, 3:02 PM EST
Joined: 02-19-2002
Posts: 9,740
First of all let me say up front, if I owned a company I would be damned if I would want a union to come in and tell me how to run my company.

Okay, to have a union come into your company, a minimum of 51% of your workers must sign a card requesting that the union represent them, then during a supervised election a minimum of 51% of your workers must vote in favor of the union.

My question...Why did more than half of your workers feel that they could not communicate with you and that they needed the backing of a union. What did you do to drive them to seek union protection?

JonR



penzt8 Offline
#2 Posted: Thu, Jul 1 2004, 4:48 PM EST
Joined: 06-05-2000
Posts: 1,771
It's been a few years since my business relations class but I think it's not too uncommon for union reps to talk with employees (away from the job) and fill their heads with union propaganda about how much better their lives would be with a union. Nothing official but maybe they just happen to show up at a local bar near a non union factory and talk up the union. There's always an unhappy employee or two whining about something. It only take a couple to stir things up.

penzt8 Offline
#3 Posted: Thu, Jul 1 2004, 4:53 PM EST
Joined: 06-05-2000
Posts: 1,771
That's one of the reasons it's important to have a strong HR department. A good HR department will make sure that employees are compensated at a fair market rate and that other employee issues are addressed. Good HR people are trained in union avoidance strategies in addition to union negotiating in the event a union does get in.
tailgater Offline
#4 Posted: Thu, Jul 1 2004, 5:31 PM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
The grass is always greener.

Most type of jobs that have unions are the so-called "blue collar" jobs. How many blue collar workers are "happy" working for the establishment? Regardless of how well they are treated, most folks feel they are underappreciated.

That's why they call it "work" and it's also the reason people get paid to do it.
But in comes guido union guy, and he tells of higher wages and better benefits. Regardless of whether or not he can deliver, who would say no to that?

drnos Offline
#5 Posted: Thu, Jul 1 2004, 6:04 PM EST
Joined: 10-29-2003
Posts: 2,787
Not so blue collar anymore.

The only union segment that is growing is the gov't employees unions.
JonR Offline
#6 Posted: Thu, Jul 1 2004, 6:26 PM EST
Joined: 02-19-2002
Posts: 9,740
Yo penzt8:

"union propaganda"...and there's no propaganda from the company, yeah right.

"whiners"... your right there, they whine about having to send their children to a public school listed as one of the most dangerous in Philadephia, they whine about not having health insurance for their family, they whine about low wages and lack of benifits, and they whine about being forced to do unsafe jobs under threats of firing, etc.etc. Damn whiners.

But what do I know, I never went to school to study unions like you, all I ever did was organize for Teamster unions, captain their strike lines, write union contracts, negotiate union contracts, be apart of mediation,arbitration, and NLRB hearings for twelve years.

JonR
JonR Offline
#7 Posted: Thu, Jul 1 2004, 7:00 PM EST
Joined: 02-19-2002
Posts: 9,740
Yo tailgator:

"That's why they call it "work" and it's also the reason people get paid to do it.
But in comes guido union guy, and he tells of higher wages and better benefits. Regardless of whether or not he can deliver, who would say no to that?"

Nine out of ten times the union delivers, higher wages and better benifits, but most important of all "JOB SECURITY". What is interesting is if the company would have treated the workers with respect they most likely would never have brought in a union.

JonR
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#8 Posted: Thu, Jul 1 2004, 9:35 PM EST
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
tailgater

i'm not sure what you mean by blue collar workers.
are you refering to assembly line workers, or lower management?
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#9 Posted: Thu, Jul 1 2004, 9:40 PM EST
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
one can argue that unions have outlived their usefullness.

but were it not for unions, there would still be child labor, cheap wages, no osha, and no hope for a better future. do not forget, or learn about the plight of the coal miners, literally held captive, before they organized. don't forget owners and managers are organized.

lukin Offline
#10 Posted: Thu, Jul 1 2004, 11:45 PM EST
Joined: 03-31-2004
Posts: 2,205
the grass always looks greener on the other side...acutally JonR, I would say that most employees whether union or not would love to be in a union. They don't think about anyone but themselves and the long term effects of unions on the nation or on the company they work for. They know that the union gets them things that they didn't have before without realizing the consequences that result:comapny layoffs, inflation, lack of job mobility, etc. I know where I work it is almost blasphemy to speak out against the union because everyone is so "happy," but as a person who can look at the bigger picture, I can see that the union is doing more harm than good. very few people are willing to look beyond their paycheck and their health benefits to see that unions are not always the best way to go. If we decided to get out of the union, would my company try and screw me at every chance they got? YES! But that is the American way and the way to get around it is to make them want o keep you by providing goods and services for them that make you indespensible.

Unions are the first step towards socialism and the absolute death of the American Dream. Have they served a purpose, yes. I've read The Jungle, I've been in third world countries and seen sweat shops, thankfully wee don't have that kind of crap here, and unions helped to bring about reforms in labor, but those reforms are established and unions are more interested today in supporting themselves than caring for their workers. The demands they are making of companies today are forcing businesses to close and/or lay off workers, schools cannot afford to pay their teachers or keep the good ones they have and good quality workers who could make a difference in the workforce are lost in a sea of seniority. Its a real shame and no one inside the union wants to talk about it for fear of physical harm or at the very least being blacklisted at work. Shame on all unions for creating this kind of fear in their workers!!! isn't this the kind of thing that they were trying to prevent?
EI Offline
#11 Posted: Fri, Jul 2 2004, 4:44 AM EST
Joined: 06-29-2002
Posts: 5,069
JonR
Help me out here. First you ask a question about unions as a would be owner of a company

"First of all let me say up front, if I owned a company I would be damned if I would want a union to come in and tell me how to run my company."

Then you post your experiance in working with a union

"But what do I know, I never went to school to study unions like you, all I ever did was organize for Teamster unions, captain their strike lines, write union contracts, negotiate union contracts, be apart of mediation,arbitration, and NLRB hearings for twelve years.

JonR "

What side of the fence are you on here, or are you just baiting the waters?
bassdude Offline
#12 Posted: Fri, Jul 2 2004, 5:29 AM EST
Joined: 01-13-2004
Posts: 8,871
I have never worked a 'union' job nor do I have any desire to.

All I see a union do is price things out of proportion and cause us to lose American sale - see the steel workers.

If a person works hard and is competant they don't need no stinkin union to keep their job.

I agree that they were needed and did serve a purpose. It is over now. Too much corruption but as a Teamster I am sure you know all about that.
rayder1 Offline
#13 Posted: Fri, Jul 2 2004, 6:35 AM EST
Joined: 06-02-2002
Posts: 2,226
A family friend owns a large, locally well known, truck accessory manufacturing company. He's had the business, non-union, for almost 30 years. His pay scale has been superior, benefit package excellent and his employee relations excellent as well. His employees are "family" and have always been welcome to have corporate input.

He has about 75-80 employees at any given time. He has a number families into their second generation working at his shop.

Last year, he hired a new employee, who was an Operating Engineer shop steward at his last job. He left the job to work at this company for better pay an benefits. As soon as he started, he began to spread union rhetoric around the shop. Many of the younger/newer workers began to listen...most of the older workers told him to pound sand (the $100 plus monthly dues was enough to sway a few votes). A lot of the older workers were nearing retirement, having worked for Don for 25

When word finally got back to the boss he called a meeting at the beginning of the day and told everyone that he is not going to run a union shop...period. He added the shop was going to close in 90 days. He was calling in bulldozers to knock the building down and he was going to turn the plant and adjacent property into a strip mall and PUD housing. Everyone was going to get a percentage of the value of the company and 6 months pay based upon their tenure. This was a generous offer, but he was through. He had been a staunch believer in treating employees well and not ever needing to be told how.

Don knew there was a value to having unions in many organizations...(his son is in the U.A.W. and he was in the Teamsters when he was driving trucks)...but not in his business. To make a long story short...the new guy eventually left...he wasn't looked upon well by his co-workers after that. The business is still there. He did not begrudge anyone for considering the union. He hust wouldn't run his business in a union environment. Absolutely his choice.

There are laws in place which prevent employers from taking action against employees who want to unionize, but it doesn't prevent them from closing their doors and going into another line of work. It was a rather extreme solution, but this man built this business from his garage to a 50000 sq.ft. warehouse and 10 acre yard in 25 years. He has prided himself on paying better than his neighbors and in keeping employees, matching benefit and 401K contributions etc. His principles were better than any union.

BTW...after I retire, he has a cool retirement job I might consider.
tailgater Offline
#14 Posted: Fri, Jul 2 2004, 7:39 AM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
JonR,
If by "job security" you mean iron-clad tenure, then you are right. And you have also hit upon one of the most devastating features of a union: the inability to rid the company of cancers, and the priority of longevity over ability as a means to determine worth.

In one of my previous jobs, I had the unique opportunity to witness MANY manufacturing facilities. I performed technical service and traveled extensively to literally hundreds of shops both Union and Non.
I could tell you with 99% certainty which companies were unionized within 10 minutes of watching the shop floor.

I have no agenda. No reason to oppose unions other than by my own experiences.
Try working with employees who take their break at 9:45 regardless of the project status. Try making deliberate changes to the manufacturing process in order to gain results, but having instead to wait for an electrician to PLUG A METER IN !!!
Ask the machine operator to change materials? Forgetaboutit.
Take a late lunch to complete time sensitive data? Hardy-har-ha.

I think "bite the hand that feeds you" was a phrase coined by a union boss.
With pride...

But what do I know?
All I've got to compare those piss-poor union shops with are the non-union companies.
You know, the ones who were able to promote the talented employees and allow thoughtful job responsibility.
And the ones that, more often then not, were operated with a higher level of competence and pride.

Don't get me wrong. I don't fault the employee for wanting to make more money. We're all in the same boat regarding that.
But what do I have to do if I want more money?
I need to earn it.
I don't close down my companies doors and demand it regardless of merit.

How unamerican of me...
DrMaddVibe Offline
#15 Posted: Fri, Jul 2 2004, 8:21 AM EST
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,507
Somewhere between the last 2 comments are my own.

The first "real" job I ever had was a union job with the CWA (Can't Work Anyway) splicing cable. No matter how fast I hustled or how accurate my work was I wasn't going to get to "top craft" without tenure. Not that there's anything wrong with tenure, but there should be other factors to pay besides showing up for work everyday.

Long story short...I worked for Southern Bell for 3-1/2 years. Divestiture hit the Telcom industry with a sledgehammer. My "tenure" wasn't enough to keep my job as my "brothers" bumped the young bucks overboard to keep their jobs. Many had their homes paid for and beach houses paid for too, and could've accepted a buyout offer but didn't. I was offered another job because of my work ethic but it came with a severe reduction of pay with a promise that I'd be back in the field as soon as a position opened. I joined the US Army at that point.

When I got out of the Army I was offered 2 positions with 2 different companies. One working for the I Bowl Every Wednesday (IBEW), and the other was with a non-union fortune 100 company that prided itself with never laying anyone off (at that time!). My decision was made up immedietly. Scrap the union job, and went to EDS. I stayed there for almost 15 years before I moved on to "greener pastures"!

With the non-union job I was given opportunity, training, travel and business experience that has served me well time and time again. Add that together and I know that the only training I would've received with a union would've been outdated technology! Now I own and operate my own business with everything I've gleaned from my personal experiences. Treat your employees fairly...like I want to be treated. Inform the staff of important decisions...someone else might have a better idea. Do an honest day's work for an honest day's pay...I don't ask anyone else to do anything that I personally wouldn't do, and sometimes jump in roll the sleeves up and work with everyone.

What did I learn from paying into a union? Strike pay sucks. Lazy people get the same pay as industrious workers. Breaks are not rules set in stone. Thanks for the bump years ago fellas...glad I chose the road less traveled!
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#16 Posted: Fri, Jul 2 2004, 8:35 AM EST
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
tailgater

"If by "job security" you mean iron-clad tenure, then you are right. And you have also hit upon one of the most devastating features of a union: the inability to rid the company of cancers, and the priority of longevity over ability as a means to determine worth."

have you thread jacked this. i thoyght it was about unions, and you bring up the house and the senate.
lukin Offline
#17 Posted: Fri, Jul 2 2004, 8:40 AM EST
Joined: 03-31-2004
Posts: 2,205
Rick....
you are getting dangerously close to getting involved in political discussions again...I thought you would at least be able to hold out for a week, welcome back into the fold :)
Cavallo Offline
#18 Posted: Fri, Jul 2 2004, 1:51 PM EST
Joined: 01-05-2004
Posts: 2,796
i grew up in a blue collar family who felt very strongly pro-union. my father worked for ALCOA and was with the steelworker's union; my brother was/is a teamster.

i listened to my father and his friends, all older guys, talk about the way it "used to be" with unions -- all the violence and such they experienced as young blue collar workers (in chicago and NY mostly).

my grandfather died in a mine -- he was a sicilian immigrant who went to work in the mines as the unions were just starting to organize. he was killed on the job that was horribly unsafe; his family never saw a dime.

so i have some very strong pro-union feelings.

HOWEVER...

times have changed. the ONLY time i see a union as being truly GOOD is when workers are being so endangered or maltreated that it's the last resort to bring about change.

if a company treats its people right, there's no need to bring in a union. if a company follows the local, state and federal safety rules (OSHA et al), and if a company isn't holding its employees over a barrel, why bother? why come in and put the screws to the employer if s/he's doing everything right?

to do so only drags down company profits, which in turn screws over the employees on down the road.
rayder1 Offline
#19 Posted: Fri, Jul 2 2004, 2:15 PM EST
Joined: 06-02-2002
Posts: 2,226
My personal belief is that unions had their place. That was before the Federal and State governments began to place regulations and watchdog organizations (OSHA for example) which ensured worker safety. nions organized at a time where child labor laws were non existant, where job site safety and tort laws had yet to become commonplace. Where a law suit was easily defeated by company lawyers.

The only thing left to unionise over would be pay, benefits and retirement. Now even those are becoming regulated and watched. There isn't really much for a Union to bitch about except for picky items like 15 minute vs 20 minute breaks. Water coolers and vending machines.
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