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Penzt,

It is great to see your studying up on the Constitution and our Founding Fathers.... I seen your other post on your daughters schooling for this yr.

I've also been reading the site you posted on Basset (sp) I read some other writings on him Yrs ago and many of what I read back then are listed on his site you posted...

It is something how our Government is spinning away from the Foundings isn't it??

Something that will be historical is these Debates between Barack Obama and Alan Keyes who are both running for Senate here in Illinois...

Both Men are Scholors on Constitutional Law.. Both Men are Christians and these Debates should be something to listen to and record for our Kids and Grand Kids...

Obama as I hear the buzzing said he would debate in 6 debates any runner the GOP puts up against him.. when Alan Keyes stepped up to the plate for Illinois the next day I heard in a talk interview with Mr. Keyes on Fox News that Obama wants to now cut these back to just 2 debates... either way... they will be historical

Keyes website link is here and worth review...
http://www.illinoisleader.com/news/newsview.asp?c=18463


He actually is to knowledgable for our Govenment and I honestly think (personally) the GOP or the Dems do not want him on the Senate floor nor in the White House when he ran on the GOP Primary in 2000...

Hog

Yep and the Sad thing is... it's going to get worse before it gets better...

you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink... but on the same token, that horse would be the first one screaming if the well was dry...

Hog

I think a little reading by both sides is in order. The problem with all the social programs now, is how do you get rid of them? There are so many people sucking the life (read that as taxpayer dollars) out of this country that it will be impossible to reverse it. They have a lot of votes.

So many of these people will have to be grandfathered over that it would take at least 50-75 years to get rid of social security if they started right now. I'd love to see social security disappear completely. By what right is someone entitled to stop working just because they reach some magic age and then become wards of the state? If you can't afford to retire then you just keep working until you die or your family takes you in.

It's not that I have a lack of compassion I just think it's not a God given or Constitutional right for someone to benefit from the labors of others.

I know you're kidding about the right wing stuff. I'm actually pretty far from a hardline right winger.
Fiscally I'm conservative.
I don't beleive morality should be legislated.
I strongly oppose the teaching of religion in public schools (K-12). The constitution says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
prohibiting the free exercise thereof"
I don't think schools need a moment of silence. If a student wants to speak to his God and he just happens to be in school when he does it who's going to stop him. Does it improve his chance of being heard if everyone around him is being extra quiet? Faith doesn't require group participation.

I think a first step would be to repeal the retirement "benefits" that senators and congressmen recieve. Take their salaries away too! Serving isn't a lifetime job. It should be an honor, and not a partisan nit-pick fest!

Funding cow methane, ketchup drips and paying farmers not to grow certain crops should be pulled off of the books for immediate savings. I'm sure there are others out there too. Social Security...end it. I'm willing to invest my own money and would even go so far as to sign away any rights I have to claiming any money that I've paid into the "program" just to get out! I can think of some others, but I'm more of a Libertarian than most view me. I honor the role of state's rights and like less government. So far EVERY candidate that's worn the "L" is a major loser that talks about legalizing prostitution and drugs! I'm fiscally conservitive. I watched a crippled president do nothing and decimate my fathers personal wealth while he wears a sweater with a NOW button on it and talks about a Misery Index! THAT image and the times that I lived under at that time cemented it in. I don't agree with everything the republicans stand for but I'm more opposed with things that drive the democrats. I want action and results and believe that those that can should be rewarded for their efforts. The private sector will and should create more jobs than any government should too!

penzt writes:

"If you can't afford to retire then you just keep working until you die or your family takes you in.

It's not that I have a lack of compassion I just think it's not a God given or Constitutional right for someone to benefit from the labors of others."

a couple of things from my personal perspective. and don't take this as some "poor me" ramble; i quite seriously consider myself to be a very lucky and rich man.

i'm grateful for the soc sec system we have set up. i never anticipated that when i was in my late 30's my nervous system would slowly shut down on me. never thought i'd be fighting not to lose my legs and hands to amputation, never thought that even my GUTS could slowly stop functioning or that i'd have to take 12-15 pills daily just to stay alive.

well, surprise surprise. stuff happens.

i don't feel bad at all to be (hopefully soon) collecting soc sec. that's money that i have been paying to the govt. since i started working at the age of 15 (plus interest over all those years). luckily for me, i've worked enough years (and then some) to qualify to get back what i paid in.

hopefully i will benefit from what I'VE PAID FOR YEARS while making the big bucks, not live off the labor of others.

i don't have a family to "take me in." parents dead, no kids. siblings? haven't spoken to them in a decade and for good reason. don't even know if they're living.

i do have a wife, an amazing, wonderful wife. she makes $20k annually teaching h.s., teaching "the future of america" to read and write in such a way that they can hopefully function as productive adults. she works extra hours tutoring privately so we can have our humble home and so we can afford the inflated prices of the medications that keep me alive -- for some whacky reason, she's happy to do it.

meanwhile, i bring in what i can doing what i'm still able to do (on the good days) and try not to think too much about my pride and i look forward to someday getting that whopping $805 per month (before taxes). it's not even enough to cover the horse pills that keep my carcass going, but at least it's less of a dent into her (sorry, "our" as she insists on calling it) income.

is that huge chunk of change a god given right? no. i have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness (oddly enough, and despite this bitter little rant, i AM a happy and grateful man). and i have the right to remain silent, though it seems that i sometimes go overboard in refusing that one, especially when (like today and yesterday) i'm actually feeling more on the alive side. :)

that's really about it as far as rights go.

and i'm grateful to live in a country that has named those rights (so i guess those are actually man-given, not god given; god's only given us the right to breathe for as long as we're able).

so while i don't consider it my "god given right" to receive social security, i'm still glad that it WAS established. i'm happy to have paid into it, and i hope that i'll be able to receive back $805 of it each month that i'm living -- and it doesn't look like that will be for such an extended length of time. ;)

I think a first step would be to repeal the retirement "benefits" that senators and congressmen recieve. Take their salaries away too! Serving isn't a lifetime job. It should be an honor, and not a partisan nit-pick fest!

Funding cow methane, ketchup drips and paying farmers not to grow certain crops should be pulled off of the books for immediate savings. I'm sure there are others out there too. Social Security...end it. I'm willing to invest my own money and would even go so far as to sign away any rights I have to claiming any money that I've paid into the "program" just to get out! I can think of some others, but I'm more of a Libertarian than most view me. I honor the role of state's rights and like less government.

DMV I agree with you!!! it needed repeating..LOL

Hog

Where does it say to keep prayer private? What book is that in?

As many times as God is mentioned in our founding documents I think it's a good thing to have it out there. Let Mr. Ketchup in the White House and you could see Islamic prayer real soon whether you like it or not! I like the 10 commandments and think they should be in courtrooms. I like the fact that the current President bows to his knees every morning and prays.

A lot of our problems as a nation happen to concide when we stripped prayer from schools, thought abortion was a good idea and continue today with the PC, stripping God out of the Pledge and displaying the 10 commandments.

What book in the Bible.

more to the point:

Matthew 6:5-6: "And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men....when thou prayest, enter into thy closet and when thou has shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret...."

when christ prayed, he went off by himself to do so:

Mark 6:46: "And when he had sent them away, he departed into a mountain to pray."

Matthew 14:23: "And when he had sent the multitudes away, he went up into a mountain apart to pray: and when the evening was come, he was there alone."

Luke 9:18: "And it came to pass, as he was alone praying, his disciples were with him..."

John 6:15: "...he departed again into a mountain himself alone."

Matthew 26:36-44: "Jesus went with three disciples, left them behind and went further to pray alone."

etc. etc. etc.

NOTE: i'm not telling others how to pray; that's your business. this is how i interpret the scripture and the example i use for my own life.

I'll try real hard to remember your scriptures the next time our pastor leads us in prayer!

The ones you pulled out made references to hypocrites that grandstand in the Father's name and the times that Jesus went to pray. I believe that Jesus had direct communication with God and didn't pray in the manner that you and I do.

Jesus prayed many times in the open and many times alone. He was God's only begotten son. Jesus even "taught" us how to pray. I don't remember him adding..."Now only do this in private...or you're going to HELL!" I think I'll stick to Luke-11:1-13 but thanks anyway!

DMV: the early christians did not pray together as a congregation, nor did christ tell us to do so. christ's personal examples are of praying alone, with the exception of blessing food and blessing children.

"that's not how we do it now" doesn't mean that it's what christ would have us do. :)

i don't understand how you get "prayer should be public" out of the Luke passage you noted. christ was teaching the disciples to pray after he had finished praying himself.

"and it came to pass that when he was praying in a certain place, WHEN HE CEASED, one of his disciples said unto him, lord teach us how to pray, as john also taught his disciples." (Luke 11:1)

"and he said unto him, when you pray say..." (the words of The Lord's Prayer follow) (Luke 11:2)

but again, this is how *i* see it. i'm not trying to tell anyone else how to pray or worship or not worship -- that's between you and god (or you and your minister).

Believe me I KNOW they're not YOURS!!!!!!

lol -- DMV, i was just responding to your comment: "I'll try real hard to remember YOUR SCRIPTURES the next time our pastor leads us in prayer!" :)

DMV: i have, i assure you, read the scriptures many times quite thoroughly. are you asking me to quote the entire bible?

again, if you have scripture noting where christ advocated for his followers to pray in public, please share them with me. there are numerous places where it's noted that christ prayed alone. over and over, all through the gospels, in matthew, mark, luke and john -- jesus prayed privately. in matthew 6:5-6, he SPECIFICALLY TELLS US to pray in private.

christ references prayer at the temple twice -- in luke 18:10-14 (that's the boastful prayer passage, btw) and in matthew 21:12-13 (recalling isaiah, "My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves") -- but both of these refer to jewish customs of praying at the temple; when christ came, he opened up a "direct access to god" so to speak; they were no longer required to go to temple to pray and make sacrifices.

christ references prayer in public in two other situations, both of which involve the act of BLESSING -- 1) blessing a meal and 2) blessing children, in which an adult or parent (and again, this is jewish ritual) places his hands on the child's head -- so christ had to be with the child to bless him; this is not something he could have done in isolation.

however, with the exception of jews praying at the temple and in blessing someone/something, christ prayed IN PRIVATE. and he told us to do the same.

it's not "just one scripture," matthew 6:56.

here are others:

Matthew 14:23 (went up on the mountain alone to pray)
Matthew 26:36-44 (left his disciples to pray)
Mark 1:35 (went to a solitary place to pray)
Luke 5:16 (goes to lonely places to pray by himself)
Luke 9:19 (prayed alone; disciples in the vicinity)
Luke 22:41-43 (withdrew from disciples "about a stone's throw" to pray alone)
John 16, 17 (talks to disciples, then goes and prays, then rejoins disciples to cross kidron valley)

i'm well aware that it's "the thing to do" today to gather up in groups to pray. and if that's what you do, hey -- more power to you. it's between you and god.

all i'm saying is that throughout the scripture, jesus prayed in private and he distinctly tells us to do the same. that's what i base MY PERSONAL decision upon and why I PERSONALLY pray in private.

what you do or don't do is your personal decision.

i hear ya, smelly.

a lot of our country's problems started when we ended slavery... do you want to reinstitute it??

lol yeah, i kinda cringed when i went back and saw how much i'd posted. didn't mean to take the thread in such a different direction -- doh! but, admittedly, i do like to discuss religion and scripture.

if i feel as good tomorrow as i did today (finally a new medicine that actually makes me feel better, not worse! lol), i'll start a religion thread, and we can all go nutty with it. heh.

Cav,

I can appreciate your position and I don't mean to direct anything derogatory towards you or anyone else because they are receiving benefits (under legitimate conditions). I've benefited from the various social systems at one time or another myself and I'm sure there are a few others here. Social security was not instituted as an individual savings plan. The people working today are paying for the people who are drawing benefits today. The first recipients paid little or nothing into SS but received benefits. Every year, I get one of those statements that shows how much I've earned and how much I've paid into SS over my working career. Plus my employer matches that amount. It gives me a dollar amount that I'll receive if I continue to earn at my current rate and work until my retirement age. I think I could do better investing myself. A lot of people would choose not to save for their retirement. Well gee I guess they'll just have to keep working. The current system is unsustainable because our population just won't support the growth in recipients.

I don't have a problem with workers insurance that protects workers who are injured or otherwise become physically unable to continue working. But I don't believe there should be a federal retirement system within the social security system. I don't believe healthy people should receive a welfare check without providing some sort of service in return. Even people drawing unemployment could do some sort of community service work while they're getting a check.

Anyway, I was mostly interested in the concept of what should government be doing. Why do people believe programs like social security (retirement), Medicaid, welfare, etc. should exist? They take resources from working men and women and give them to someone else. It unfairly redistributes wealth and penalizes honest, hardworking people.

I don't know what the solution is to social security other than scrapping it altogether. You can't have some participate as is and allow others to opt out. This would put even more burden on those who stay in. If everyone opted out and decided to invest it their own way, where would the funds come from to continue paying for the current recipients? I think it would be best if the government just establish a date that those young workers would not contribute ever. Let's say, anyone that enters the workforce for the first time after 1 Jan 05 never pays a dime into SS. Then you take the folks who have been working for 10 years or less and you reduce their contribution by a large percentage and also tell them that SS will only provide them with a small compensation when they retire.. Incrementally you phase it out completely. The problem is that the missing contribution for current recipients would still have to be made up out of tax payer pockets.

I think they did a great thing with IRA programs that allow those of us that earn income to contribute to a tax-free fund for our retirements. When I first started contributing to my own retirement account I was only 19 and could only afford around $25 a month. But I stuck with it and as I got pay raises I slowly increased my contributions. I eventually transferred the funds from an annuity plan to an IRA then to a Roth IRA. I don't have a fortune but I'm still contributing to my Roth and my 401K and probably will be for another 25 years. I spent 20 years in the Air Force and didn't make a large salary but was still able to accumulate a fair amount. Just think how much I could have contributed if I didn't have SS, Medicare, and welfare recipients picking my pocket and the pocket of my employer.

I am worried though that a socialist attitude will prevail in the future and my SS benefits will be eroded. I can picture it now. They'll pass legislation that will change SS benefits so that those who have retirement incomes from pension plans, 401K, and IRA's will have their SS offset by their monthly distributions. Once again, those who have done the right thing will get screwed because those poor folks that didn't save, don't have food to eat or a place to sleep