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Last post 13 years ago by HockeyDad. 24 replies replies.
Question to those who support unions
tailgater Offline
#1 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
I dislike unions.
I'd happily debate the pros and cons at any time.
But I have some honest questions, and I'll try not to sound too contemptuous because I'd really like to hear an honest response from someone who is pro-labor union.

Let's set the stage here. For our arguments sake, let's say that the fervor in Wisconsin was about one issue alone: Collective Bargaining.

1. Why is collective bargaining so precious?

2. As a follow up to that, why can't the individual worker "bargain" their own deals regarding salary and benefits? You know, kinda like every single non-union employee?


Historically speaking, labor unions were a vital part of the industrial growth in America. We are much better today because they existed. I admit this freely.
But they are not needed today, and in fact are a detriment to an efficient workplace.

If I am wrong, it would help your argument to include specific examples whenever possible, especially first hand experiences.



Lumpa Offline
#2 Posted:
Joined: 03-04-2009
Posts: 377
I am in the same camp that in general I dislike unions.

The one point you make that I may disagree with:
The blanket statement that they are not needed.
While I can't think of any off the top of my head, there MAY be some current situations where a union is the answer.

But the large scale use of them we have now is counter productive.

By and large, most employers are willing to lay out reasonable rules, and stick to them.
Various labor departments (fed/State/OSHA, etc) have ensured the reasonableness of the rules.
When the employer gets out of line, there are other avenues for a worker to take that did not exist before unions.

If an employer were preying on vulnerable labor market in an unathical way (ie sweatshop full of undereducated workers that gets intimidated into unsafe conditions), that might be a situation a union could help. I'm sure it does still happen, but is probably by far the exception rather than the rule.
DadZilla3 Offline
#3 Posted:
Joined: 01-17-2009
Posts: 4,633
I can understand the need for collective bargaining units under certain circumstances...the problem I have with unions is their Pavlovian support of Democratic party candidates regardless of how liberal and anti-American they might be.
schusler Offline
#4 Posted:
Joined: 09-21-2010
Posts: 3,531
Do you honestly believe that your quality of life will increase if unions cease to exist?
apachelm Offline
#5 Posted:
Joined: 04-26-2008
Posts: 8,549
The biggest problems lie with PUBLIC employee unions rather than Private unions. It just makes sense that a private company isn't going to give away more than the company can afford in pay and benefits or they will go out of business. (you would think that the employees would think the same way as it is hard to draw a check or bennies from a bankrupt company)

But the public unions don't have that same restraint when it comes to negotiations
jojoc Offline
#6 Posted:
Joined: 03-05-2007
Posts: 6,272
schusler wrote:
Do you honestly believe that your quality of life will increase if unions cease to exist?


No, I do not. However, I do believe that the continuation of unions as they exist today will make it much more difficult for me to maintain my existing standard of living.
Example: cost of a vehicle is significantly higher than it would be without unions due to the higher labor costs. As a result of the ever-increasing costs, it will be more difficult for me to replace my current vehicle with a vehicle of equal or greater quality down the road.
Example: The local school district just caused my property taxes to go up by about 10%. One of the major expenses in the education budget is benefits for teachers and other public employees. For the most part, the salary that these public employees receive is competitive to public sector jobs in our area. The benefits are 3 or 4 times better than public sector jobs. Without the unions, the benefits would not be what they are, and there would be less of a need for the school district to tap property taxes to meet budget.

There is a reason why the public sector (non-union) companies have given up on pensions, and other "traditional" benefits, for employees -- it is not economically sustainable to provide them. However, where unions are involved, in both public and private arena, it is almost impossible, short of bankruptcy, to adapt the benefits structure to reflect this reality.

wheelrite Offline
#7 Posted:
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
Is this a gay homo civil union topic ?

if so,ask Jade...


wheel,
jackconrad Offline
#8 Posted:
Joined: 06-09-2003
Posts: 67,461
Unions have the same problem that our Govt does: POLITICS
tailgater Offline
#9 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
schusler wrote:
Do you honestly believe that your quality of life will increase if unions cease to exist?


I don't recall anyone saying that.
Why would you suggest such a preposterous notion?


TMCTLT Offline
#10 Posted:
Joined: 11-22-2007
Posts: 19,733
Unions are absolutely still necessary, much like any other walk of life it depends on the individual as to what brand of fair treatment one will receive. The premise that employers will automatically treat their employees fair and not put them in harms way on the job is ludicrous!!! Some will sure, because they understand right from wrong, many will not, as they are greedy, self serving pricks who think they can and should be able to run rough shod over those who have no pedigree ie:
a college degree. Your comment on individual bargaining is interesting, I've worked for companies who had a policy in place that dis-allowed employees from discussing wages amongst themselves. Now I'm ALL for raises etc. being based on merit and performance, that's how it Should be!! But far too many employers want to deal with folks one on one in hopes that some will not be as strong @ negotiating their own fate as well as others. Now that being said I saw far too many cases of people who did NOT deserve to have that job for numerous reasons and the union retained their job anyway. And I'm sorry if this offends anyone, but far too many of the employees taking advantage this way were black employees. Because they knew that not only did they have the backing of their union...... they also had the NAACP to file discrimination charges should they try to have them removed / replaced! I saw first hand guys /gals taking turns clocking one another in on any given night, only for the one who's turn it was to go home while on the clock.............SICKENING!!!!!! And don't even ask why I didn't turn them in, I had a phuckin gun pulled on me over a parking spot, how do you think it would go down if I narked out Ghost employees? Keep in mind I was only 18, pretty much a kid yet.......

Lets face it, far too many positions in life are garnered out based on WHO you know, not What you know or how well you do it. Far too often jobs are won / lost based on personality alone. If the manager / man / woman in charge likes you and think they can manipulate you easier than some one else.....ding ding ding we've got a winner!!!!!

And I'd like to know why all the fuss over Auto Unions / Teacher Unions etc. but no one seems to have a PHUCKIN problem with Players Unions in professional sports? This is in my opinion one of the biggest travesties out there!!!!!!!
Oh wait, that's right they entertain us and they could get hurt and their career would be over........So would mine if I fell off a roof. had a beam fall on me, loose a limb or two, or any other number of possibilities. The entire professional sporting industry is shameful yet no ill words for them....................The bastids threaten to leave a community if said community fails to build them a new stadium to play in, even though there's nothing wrong with the one they currently have and still owe $20,000,000 on.....if you ask me it's All in ones perspective.............
tailgater Offline
#11 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
TMCTLT wrote:
Unions are absolutely still necessary, much like any other walk of life it depends on the individual as to what brand of fair treatment one will receive. The premise that employers will automatically treat their employees fair and not put them in harms way on the job is ludicrous!!! Some will sure, because they understand right from wrong, many will not, as they are greedy, self serving pricks who think they can and should be able to run rough shod over those who have no pedigree ie:
a college degree. Your comment on individual bargaining is interesting, I've worked for companies who had a policy in place that dis-allowed employees from discussing wages amongst themselves. Now I'm ALL for raises etc. being based on merit and performance, that's how it Should be!! But far too many employers want to deal with folks one on one in hopes that some will not be as strong @ negotiating their own fate as well as others. Now that being said I saw far too many cases of people who did NOT deserve to have that job for numerous reasons and the union retained their job anyway. And I'm sorry if this offends anyone, but far too many of the employees taking advantage this way were black employees. Because they knew that not only did they have the backing of their union...... they also had the NAACP to file discrimination charges should they try to have them removed / replaced! I saw first hand guys /gals taking turns clocking one another in on any given night, only for the one who's turn it was to go home while on the clock.............SICKENING!!!!!! And don't even ask why I didn't turn them in, I had a phuckin gun pulled on me over a parking spot, how do you think it would go down if I narked out Ghost employees? Keep in mind I was only 18, pretty much a kid yet.......

Lets face it, far too many positions in life are garnered out based on WHO you know, not What you know or how well you do it. Far too often jobs are won / lost based on personality alone. If the manager / man / woman in charge likes you and think they can manipulate you easier than some one else.....ding ding ding we've got a winner!!!!!

And I'd like to know why all the fuss over Auto Unions / Teacher Unions etc. but no one seems to have a PHUCKIN problem with Players Unions in professional sports? This is in my opinion one of the biggest travesties out there!!!!!!!
Oh wait, that's right they entertain us and they could get hurt and their career would be over........So would mine if I fell off a roof. had a beam fall on me, loose a limb or two, or any other number of possibilities. The entire professional sporting industry is shameful yet no ill words for them....................The bastids threaten to leave a community if said community fails to build them a new stadium to play in, even though there's nothing wrong with the one they currently have and still owe $20,000,000 on.....if you ask me it's All in ones perspective.............



Thanks for the input.

Here's the deal: some companies and/or owners are pricks.
You don't like it? Get another job.
Why do employees who work for large companies with labor union work forces need a voice for them, while the worker at the small company doesn't?

At what point in one's life does an adult say to himself: "My job is OK, but I need someone to negotiate my lot in life for me"??

If a person can't negotiate in support of themselves, then they're likely not a strong worker anyhow. Because a strong worker wouldn't NEED to negotiate very hard. Their work ethic would make the employer WANT to keep them becuase too few people earn their paycheck nowadays and good workers are a precious commodity.

I am an employer. I don't hire/fire, but I am part owner of a small manufacturing company.
As we grow, it is becoming MORE obvious that you need to do whatever necessary to keep the good workers.
We are not unique in this regards.

But in a larger company, why does the pay scale have to be known amongst employees? Why do two people doing the same job have to get paid the same?
If you want "fair" then whenever possible a paycheck should be equated to productivity. But I guarantee you that a labor union would be agaisnt that.
And don't dismiss this point as being minor. It's perhaps the biggest reason that unions hinder efficiency.


As for Professional players unions?
We agree that they are not needed.
TMCTLT Offline
#12 Posted:
Joined: 11-22-2007
Posts: 19,733
tailgater wrote:
Thanks for the input.

Here's the deal: some companies and/or owners are pricks.
You don't like it? Get another job.
Why do employees who work for large companies with labor union work forces need a voice for them, while the worker at the small company doesn't?

At what point in one's life does an adult say to himself: "My job is OK, but I need someone to negotiate my lot in life for me"??

If a person can't negotiate in support of themselves, then they're likely not a strong worker anyhow. Because a strong worker wouldn't NEED to negotiate very hard. Their work ethic would make the employer WANT to keep them becuase too few people earn their paycheck nowadays and good workers are a precious commodity.

I am an employer. I don't hire/fire, but I am part owner of a small manufacturing company.
As we grow, it is becoming MORE obvious that you need to do whatever necessary to keep the good workers.
We are not unique in this regards.

But in a larger company, why does the pay scale have to be known amongst employees? Why do two people doing the same job have to get paid the same?
If you want "fair" then whenever possible a paycheck should be equated to productivity. But I guarantee you that a labor union would be agaisnt that.
And don't dismiss this point as being minor. It's perhaps the biggest reason that unions hinder efficiency.


As for Professional players unions?
We agree that they are not needed.



If only this were always the case......not All employers promote based on performance, and while I understand and agree with you that if you don't like it get another job.........there's not always one Available!!!!! So many times folks are "stuck" and have to endure a prick owner /manager......
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#13 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
tailgater

let us say you work for a company and they are happy with your work. try making an appointment with the ceo to discuss a raise in your pay. how soon do you think he will get back to you?
Double D Offline
#14 Posted:
Joined: 08-20-2003
Posts: 2,819
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=su4PwZCWUdg

lulz Applause

DD™
HockeyDad Offline
#15 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,187
RICKAMAVEN wrote:
tailgater

let us say you work for a company and they are happy with your work. try making an appointment with the ceo to discuss a raise in your pay. how soon do you think he will get back to you?




The CEO would only be handling HR issues if it were a very small company.
Papachristou Offline
#16 Posted:
Joined: 10-20-2010
Posts: 845
i work for Enteprise. we have never had unions. a few years ago, we bought national/alamo. Their car preps (guys who detail the cars) have a union. What happens at their stores is the old guys sit around and do nothing (and we cant write them up or terminate them) and they tell the young guys to do all the work and if they join the union, they will eventually get to be like the old guys. higher paid and less work. unions complete defeat a hard work ethic and discourage workers from separating themselves from the pack. not mention the absurd rules we have to follow with union workers.

i hate to break it to the USA but the days of retiring at 55 are gone. its crazy to think you can work for the city or state for 10-15-20 years then retire will full benefits????????? thats why states and municipalities are BROKE!
Lumpa Offline
#17 Posted:
Joined: 03-04-2009
Posts: 377
schusler wrote:
Do you honestly believe that your quality of life will increase if unions cease to exist?

Yes, about a month the abolition of unions, prices on ALOT of things would drop like a stone.
Productivity would skyrocket.

Sorry, but if I have a better combination of skillset and work ethic, then why shouldn't I make more?
That combination also ensures my employer will desire to keep me around.

And as for companies underpaying or putting workers in harms way, that's what minumum wage, OSHA and labor relations boards are for.

Employers who like to keep employees (turnover is VERY expensive in most industries)
and don't like to get sued or fined by OSHA
will treat their employees decently.

the rest either are in a field where monkeys could do the work,
or will not succeed in the long run.

So if you do work that can be done by ANYONE
you don't have much right to expect a lot.
Tough $hit.
Lumpa Offline
#18 Posted:
Joined: 03-04-2009
Posts: 377
Rick:

I discuss a raise in pay with my employer on an annual basis.
It's called a performance review.
Good performance = better pay.
Poor performance = unemployment.
jojoc Offline
#19 Posted:
Joined: 03-05-2007
Posts: 6,272
TMCTLT wrote:


And I'd like to know why all the fuss over Auto Unions / Teacher Unions etc. but no one seems to have a PHUCKIN problem with Players Unions in professional sports? This is in my opinion one of the biggest travesties out there!!!!!!!
Oh wait, that's right they entertain us and they could get hurt and their career would be over........So would mine if I fell off a roof. had a beam fall on me, loose a limb or two, or any other number of possibilities. The entire professional sporting industry is shameful yet no ill words for them....................The bastids threaten to leave a community if said community fails to build them a new stadium to play in, even though there's nothing wrong with the one they currently have and still owe $20,000,000 on.....if you ask me it's All in ones perspective.............


I'll take your statements a step further -- not only should there not be unions in sports, we as American's should stop supporting sports (watching, buying associated products, going to games, etc.) until wages for all involved are brought back to reason! I don't know how much the average paramedic makes, but seems to me that someone who runs to the aid of people and saves lives every day should make more money than some blow-hard who can throw a football .......
tailgater Offline
#20 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
TMCTLT wrote:
If only this were always the case......not All employers promote based on performance, and while I understand and agree with you that if you don't like it get another job.........there's not always one Available!!!!! So many times folks are "stuck" and have to endure a prick owner /manager......


You are correct.
But do you think a company would let a superior employee leave over a few bucks?
If they do this, then they're bound to fail. Eventually they would pay to keep the good ones.
Adapt or perish. It's called capitalism.

And nobody is "stuck".
tailgater Offline
#21 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
RICKAMAVEN wrote:
tailgater

let us say you work for a company and they are happy with your work. try making an appointment with the ceo to discuss a raise in your pay. how soon do you think he will get back to you?



Employees go to their boss for a raise.
If their boss happenst to be the CEO, then I would think she'd get back to them pretty quickly.

I'll ask it again, because this is simple:
Why do people need a union to do their bidding?
Stinkdyr Offline
#22 Posted:
Joined: 06-16-2009
Posts: 9,948
Papachristou wrote:
i work for Enteprise. we have never had unions. a few years ago, we bought national/alamo. Their car preps (guys who detail the cars) have a union. What happens at their stores is the old guys sit around and do nothing (and we cant write them up or terminate them) and they tell the young guys to do all the work and if they join the union, they will eventually get to be like the old guys. higher paid and less work. unions complete defeat a hard work ethic and discourage workers from separating themselves from the pack. not mention the absurd rules we have to follow with union workers.

i hate to break it to the USA but the days of retiring at 55 are gone. its crazy to think you can work for the city or state for 10-15-20 years then retire will full benefits????????? thats why states and municipalities are BROKE!



Bingo.

PRIVATIZE EDUCATION !!

Applause
Stinkdyr Offline
#23 Posted:
Joined: 06-16-2009
Posts: 9,948
>> And I'd like to know why all the fuss over Auto Unions / Teacher Unions etc. but no one seems to have a PHUCKIN problem with Players Unions in professional sports? This is in my opinion one of the biggest travesties out there!!!!!!!
Oh wait, that's right they entertain us and they could get hurt and their career would be over........So would mine if I fell off a roof. had a beam fall on me, loose a limb or two, or any other number of possibilities. The entire professional sporting industry is shameful yet no ill words for them....................The bastids threaten to leave a community if said community fails to build them a new stadium to play in, even though there's nothing wrong with the one they currently have and still owe $20,000,000 on.....if you ask me it's All in ones perspective.............>>

I do have a problem with it. And I vote with my feet by not buying over-priced tickets to sports games.

But you see, in that case, I have a choice not to fund the scam.

In the case of gubment unions, I get shafted with increased taxes every year to fund the scam.....I can't escape it.

Dancing

HockeyDad Offline
#24 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,187
There are no unions in European/world soccer.
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