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Last post 12 years ago by nnightmar. 34 replies replies.
Just when you think you've heard it all comes this:
dubleuhb Offline
#1 Posted:
Joined: 03-20-2011
Posts: 11,350
Secretary of Agriculture Tom Vilsack claims that food stamps stimulates economic growth and thereby creates jobs. Somehow welfare handouts create jobs. For a while now Democrats have made ridiculous claims, hoping no one would challenge them. Perhaps there was a time when the media and academics would not. Here is a look at some of these silly claims and the theories behind them.



The basic concept of government spending creating jobs comes from economist John Maynard Keynes. The gist of his theory is that unemployment rises when money is being saved or “hoarded” rather than spent or invested. By hoarding money, individuals are taking it out of the economy, lowering demand and forcing companies to reduce production and lay off workers (lowering supply).

To Keynes, it was simple: keep demand up. To accomplish this, the government must increase spending dramatically.

Using Keynesian economics, President Obama, Speaker Pelosi, and Majority Leader Reid put together a huge stimulus program, paid for with borrowed money, to help replace the lost demand. Unfortunately most of the money didn’t go to public works projects as Keynes would’ve envisioned. Most of it went to protecting the bureaucracy and expanding welfare programs.


Somehow transferring money from private sector workers to bureaucrats was supposed to stimulate economic growth.

Here is a look at a couple of other silly claims:

Food Stamps Create Jobs
Some call President Obama the food stamp President. More Americans are on food stamps than at any point in the last few decades. Most would say this statistic is a sign of poverty and distress. Not Obama and not Sec. of Agriculture Tom Vilsack. A larger food stamp program is good.

The food stamp program is funded through taxes and borrowing. Basically, the federal government takes money from one group of Americans (high income earners and bond buyers) and gives it to another. The assumption is high income people won’t put the money to good use. In order to get that money into the economy, it has to be taken away from the hoarders and given to those most likely to spend it.

While the theory sounds compelling, it never works in practice. Welfare programs create dependency. Dependent people don’t contribute to the economy, they feed off it. People on welfare tend to stay on welfare as long as possible. For example, people receiving unemployment benefits usually don’t step up their job hunt until their benefits are on the verge of running out. Welfare programs encourage workers to stay on the sidelines and spend other people’s money. Having more consumers (welfare recipients) and fewer producers (workers) is not good for the economy.

“Investment” in domestic programs leads to growth
President Obama has touted “investment” in things like federal education programs, health care, government research, and other such things. Money is taken from the private sector and put into the public sector. The idea is public employees (i.e. bureaucrats) contribute more to the economy than high income earners.

If government programs are an investment, they have abysmal returns. Democrats don’t seem to realize that successful individuals and corporations are successful because they know how to manage their finances. They are the most successful in fact. Bureaucrats are not the best investors; if they were they’d already be wealthy and probably not working for the government.

There is also the alternative argument that a better educated, healthier workforce will produce more. By increasing funding for these public services we are investing indirectly into the economy.

However, increasing government spending on these programs does not improve their quality. Most problems are not solved by simply throwing money at them. For example, the federal government has tripled spending on Education since 1970, yet test scores are dropping. Around the country some of the worst schools receive the most funding. Colleges are flushed with cash thanks to generous government subsidies, and federal student loan programs. Yet by most measures the quality of college education in America is getting worse.

The same goes for every other public service program. Increasing government spending on public services does not necessarily improve them. At best it slightly improves services, at worst it is counterproductive.

Americans Save Too Much
I’ve heard several Keynesians and statists argue this. The economy is bad because the wealthy save too much. Somehow they’ve convinced themselves the economy took a turn for the worse because rich people stopped spending money and started saving. They believe individuals and corporations need to be coerced into spending money and discouraged from saving.

This reasoning is offensive, condescending and dangerous. It accepts the premise that individuals are not qualified decision-makers and need government to step in. The idea that the government or the state knows best offends the most basic American notions of liberty and entrepreneurialism. Government control is not how the United States became the largest most dynamic economy in the world. It can’t even manage its own finances.

The federal government doesn’t know about every individual’s financial situation and can hardly be expected to make the right decisions for them. Instead they look at everything in abstract “aggregate” terms, where the entire country is spending, saving, demanding, supplying, completely ignoring the fact that the economy is comprised of people. Each individual is in their own unique financial situation, has their own wants and needs, and their own unique plans for the future. What they do with their money is their own business.

Instead of telling people what to do with their money, how about asking a simple question: why are Americans saving so much? What caused the 2008 financial meltdown?

Before Obama, we were essentially following a Keynesian-style plan. The government borrowed hundreds of billions every year and Americans were spending and borrowing to excess. What were Americans spending most their money on? Houses. Thanks to subprime mortgage loans, many Americans bought homes they couldn’t afford. Americans were also incurring large amounts of debt on their credit cards because of their confidence in the future. Their homes were appreciating rapidly, increasing their personal net worth. Things were looking great.

Unfortunately it all rested on a foundation of cards. Subprime loans along with certain government incentives pushed demand up so high, home prices rose with it. The artificial demand formed a bubble increasing house prices well beyond their actual value. When the bubble burst, many Americans saw their net worth plummet. Many defaulted.

The collapse of the housing market changed everything. Trillions in new wealth disappeared. Americans were drowning in debt, losing confidence in their future. In the years that followed, Americans took advantage of the tax credits to help them pay down their debt. In other words, the tax cut portion of the Stimulus went mostly into savings – exactly where it would do the least amount of good for the economy.

Other government policies also added to the feelings of pessimism. Most expect taxes to go up, not only in 2013 but later on. As the government adds trillions to the debt, most businesses are preparing for more tax increases in the future. There has also been a dramatic expansion in government regulations, increasing the cost of doing business. In some cases, new regulations are making it impossible to do business in the United States.

President Obama’s economic policies have failed to encourage recovery and in many cases has made things worse. It ignored the underlying problems. Instead, it attempted to impose an abstract solution to a complex, real world problem. This is what you get when economic policy is crafted by Ivy League academics with little or no experience in the private sector. To make matters worse President Obama’s so ideologically married to Keynesian economics he unable to admit his mistake. Instead he blames everyone else for undermining his brilliant ideas. That is not leadership

Trying to pass this off as good economic policy shows this administration is out of ideas as well as out of touch with reality.

ram27bat
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#2 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
i prefer the republican point of view/

to remain a virg\in, as nancy reagen said. JUST SAY NO.

of course she and old ronnie were saying yes when
he was still married to his jane.

republicans are the family values party

Democrats don’t seem to realize that successful
individuals and corporations are successful because
they know how to manage their finances.

not true. they spend all their time and money hiring
lobbysts to jerk the tax system around.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#3 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,507
dubleuhb wrote:
Trying to pass this off as good economic policy shows this administration is out of ideas as well as out of touch with reality.

ram27bat




C'mon...this is what happens when the Mob mentality sets in. People wanted Hope and Change soo f'n bad that they got it in the form of a blank slate, voting "Present", zero legislation written and passed senator with so much personal baggage that didn't get vetted through the media that you get the inexperience that goes along with it.

Don't be surprised.

People were telling you all along that experience matters.

We're seeing it in front of our eyes and the nation sinks and the Kenyan King goes on ANOTHER exclusive vacation.

Nero fiddled while Rome burned all the way down to the ground.

WHO IS JOHN GALT?
HockeyDad Offline
#4 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,163
RICKAMAVEN wrote:

they spend all their time and money hiring
lobbysts to jerk the tax system around.



Actually that is just one component of successfully managing expenses.

Hate the game, not the playa.

DrMaddVibe Offline
#5 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,507
RICKAMAVEN wrote:
i prefer the republican point of view/

to remain a virg\in, as nancy reagen said. JUST SAY NO.

of course she and old ronnie were saying yes when
he was still married to his jane.

republicans are the family values party

Democrats don’t seem to realize that successful
individuals and corporations are successful because
they know how to manage their finances.

not true. they spend all their time and money hiring
lobbysts to jerk the tax system around.



Stop playing the alphabet soup game.

You're letting the D's and R's and I's block whatever it is you're blaming.

They're all IN ON IT! They're complicit! THEY ALL WANT IN ON THE SCREW JOB!

You're playing right into their hands with the game too.

Stop.

Back off.

Join in and vote them out. Regardless of political affiliation. Do it again and again and again. Real leaders lead and this group just needs titties to suckle.
HockeyDad Offline
#6 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,163
DrMaddVibe wrote:

They're all IN ON IT! They're complicit! THEY ALL WANT IN ON THE SCREW JOB!




I've never denied that we globalists control everything. .....and nobody can lift a finger to stop us!

(Insert maniacal laughter emoticon.)
DrMaddVibe Offline
#7 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,507
HockeyDad wrote:
I've never denied that we globalists control everything. .....and nobody can lift a finger to stop us!

(Insert maniacal laughter emoticon.)



I'm doing my part.Beer

There's a few others here that are too.Herfing

Pretty soon it'll be Humpty Dumpty time.jester

All the king's horses and all the king's men can't put it back together again!whip
DrafterX Offline
#8 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,560
poor Humpty Dumpty....... Sad
DrMaddVibe Offline
#9 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,507
Was CROS on Dumpty's wall?Think
DrafterX Offline
#10 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,560
CROS can't climb walls.... Sad
DrMaddVibe Offline
#11 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,507
...To dream...the impossible dream...Whistle
herfidore Offline
#12 Posted:
Joined: 02-21-2008
Posts: 4,031
DMV,
WHO IS JOHN GALT?

What exactly does this mean to you?
nnightmar Offline
#13 Posted:
Joined: 03-31-2009
Posts: 10,707
Somebody has to print those stamps you know...

And since the transactions take so much longer well that means more cashiers right?
wheelrite Offline
#14 Posted:
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
Rick,,,

Proof Read...
donutboy2000 Offline
#15 Posted:
Joined: 11-20-2001
Posts: 25,000
In an exchange yesterday with a reporter from the Wall Street Journal, White House Press Secretary Jay Carney made the outrageous claim that extending unemployment insurance creates jobs.

That statement is worth rereading. Carney wasn’t claiming that unemployment checks promote spending, which is the point he subsequently attempted to make (see accompanying video), but that they create jobs.

Carney, who was supposed to be a cut above his predecessor in both intelligence and demeanor, even channeled Robert Gibbs in his caustic reaction to the reporter who posed the question:

Oh, uh, it is by, uh, I would expect a reporter from the Wall Street Journal would know this as part of the entrance exam.


examiner.com
DrMaddVibe Offline
#16 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,507
herfidore wrote:
What exactly does this mean to you?


Read the book.

Someone has to make the doughnuts.

Better yet, don't read the book. Stay ill-informed and continue to watch your tv.


Stinkdyr Offline
#17 Posted:
Joined: 06-16-2009
Posts: 9,948
DrMaddVibe wrote:
I'm doing my part.Beer

There's a few others here that are too.Herfing

Pretty soon it'll be Humpty Dumpty time.jester

All the king's horses and all the king's men can't put it back together again!whip






ed zachary. I vote against all incumbents at every opportunity.


TEA PARTY: RE-ELECT NOBODY!


Applause
herfidore Offline
#18 Posted:
Joined: 02-21-2008
Posts: 4,031
DrMaddVibe wrote:
Read the book.

Someone has to make the doughnuts.

Better yet, don't read the book. Stay ill-informed and continue to watch your tv.




I asked a very innocuous question and get a very typical response from you. I was hoping for more but I'm not surprised. Keep posting others words as your original thoughts. You've got it down to a near science.

Now, if you would care to actually have a civil discussion on Ayn Rands works or objectivism in general, feel free to look me up. But I will not hold my breath.
HockeyDad Offline
#19 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,163
I won't read the book either.
herfidore Offline
#20 Posted:
Joined: 02-21-2008
Posts: 4,031
Atlas is good work. But it flies off into the fantastic. The Fountainhead is much better IMHO.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#21 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,507
herfidore wrote:
Atlas is good work. But it flies off into the fantastic. The Fountainhead is much better IMHO.



True...but into the fantastic? No..maybe dumbed down so Average joe could pick it all up is more like it! I've already said "Fountainhead" was better here on this site...but were you paying attention..No you weren't. You were busy putting people into little compartments of your own choosing. At least you've read her...Fuzz couldn't even bring herself to read the works of a real patriot that understood how lucky she was to be here in America.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#22 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,507
herfidore wrote:
I asked a very innocuous question and get a very typical response from you. I was hoping for more but I'm not surprised. Keep posting others words as your original thoughts. You've got it down to a near science.

Now, if you would care to actually have a civil discussion on Ayn Rands works or objectivism in general, feel free to look me up. But I will not hold my breath.



STFU dimwit!

You haven't typed up an original though here on this site.

Look you up? Puhleeze...I'd rather have a beer summit with the Kenyan King than have to slog through a discussion with an idiot like you! You have nothing but the typical Huffington mantra to spread. If I want that...I'll go to the source instead of getting your square peg in a round hole version!

Frying pan

PS...Mouthbreathers like yourself don't hold their breath.
herfidore Offline
#23 Posted:
Joined: 02-21-2008
Posts: 4,031
DrMaddVibe wrote:
STFU dimwit!

You haven't typed up an original though here on this site.

Look you up? Puhleeze...I'd rather have a beer summit with the Kenyan King than have to slog through a discussion with an idiot like you! You have nothing but the typical Huffington mantra to spread. If I want that...I'll go to the source instead of getting your square peg in a round hole version!

Frying pan

PS...Mouthbreathers like yourself don't hold their breath.



You obviously have me confused with someone else. But yeah, I'm the mouth breather. Have a very pleasant day.
rfenst Offline
#24 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,360
The congeniality here on CBID never ceases to amaze me.
DrafterX Offline
#25 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,560
Laugh
ZRX1200 Offline
#26 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,628
That's a big word counselor. Waddus it mean?
DrafterX Offline
#27 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,560
It was a character in a Sandra Bullock movie.... Mellow
teedubbya Offline
#28 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
Books are over rated.

That said, If Obama ever invited me over for a beer I'd definitely go. I sat on a stage for a couple hours with GWB and he never offered me anything. I honestly think Obama would be a pretty interesting dude to drink one with...same with daddy bush and clinton. Winky McFlightsuit sort of made me nervous. It was very obvious to my ample gut that he was not to be trusted.
herfidore Offline
#29 Posted:
Joined: 02-21-2008
Posts: 4,031
rfenst wrote:
The congeniality here on CBID never ceases to amaze me.



Some things never change consigliere. In all things, the source must be considered.
teedubbya Offline
#30 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
herfidore wrote:
Some things never change consigliere. In all things, the source must be considered.


are we talkin dewey decimal or somethin cause I'm confused
herfidore Offline
#31 Posted:
Joined: 02-21-2008
Posts: 4,031
[quote=teedubbya]Books are over rated.

But you gots the ones with the pretty pictures. Shhh

I would herf with any of our presidents. But I would bring my own sticks, some of those guys you just never know...
herfidore Offline
#32 Posted:
Joined: 02-21-2008
Posts: 4,031
teedubbya wrote:
are we talkin dewey decimal or somethin cause I'm confused


hewey dewey and louie
teedubbya Offline
#33 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
duck
nnightmar Offline
#34 Posted:
Joined: 03-31-2009
Posts: 10,707
Whew! That was close!
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