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Last post 12 years ago by ZRX1200. 42 replies replies.
29 US companies paid more to lobby congress than they paid in taxes.
FuzzNJ Offline
#1 Posted:
Joined: 06-28-2006
Posts: 13,000
http://www.forbes.com/sites/chrisbarth/2011/12/14/29-companies-that-paid-millions-for-lobbying-and-didnt-pay-taxes/

Thirty large U.S. corporations paid more money to Congressional lobbyists than they paid in taxes from 2008-2010, according to a new report from Public Campaign, a purportedly non-partisan corporate watchdog organization that seeks to reduce the influence of big companies in politics. The report names 30 profitable companies (only one of which paid federal corporate taxes during the period analyzed), with lobbying expenditures ranging from $710,000 to $84.4 million.

The worst offender, according to the report, is General Electric. The company – which drew fire earlier this year when its lack of taxes came to light – spent over $39 million on lobbyists in 2010 alone, to firms like Federal Policy Group and Capitol Tax Partners. The energy giant avoided paying any U.S. taxes, and indeed received tax rebates totaling over $4.7 billion over the three years studied.

PG&E spent the second most on lobbying among the corporations named. In fact, it topped GE’s 2010 totals, spending nearly $45.5 million on lobbying last year. From 2008 through 2010, the company spent just under $79 million on lobbying.

Only one of the companies named in the report paid income taxes during the period analyzed, although even that company paid a tiny fraction of the standard corporate tax rate. FedEx paid $37 million in taxes – good for a tax rate of 1%. During that same period, FedEx spent $50.8 million on lobbying.

The Public Campaign report, which utilizes data from the Center for Responsive Politics, Citizens for Tax Justice and SEC filings, also contains details on corporate campaign contributions and executive compensation. Honeywell had the highest total Federal campaign contributions (from Political Action Committees and employees to candidates and party committees) during the three year period, contributing $5.1 million to Federal campaigns. Honeywell also ranked second to General Electric in compensation paid to top executives in 2010.



list of companies at link.
HockeyDad Offline
#2 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,190
More proof that the Democrats are driving up the cost of doing business in the USA and thus forcing off-shoring.
wheelrite Offline
#3 Posted:
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
so?
47% of Americans pay more for Cable TV than they pay in Fed Income Taxes...

dubleuhb Offline
#4 Posted:
Joined: 03-20-2011
Posts: 11,350
wheelrite wrote:
so?
47% of Americans pay more for Cable TV than they pay in Fed Income Taxes...


Now that is funny! but could have merit.
ZRX1200 Offline
#5 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,661
29 awesome CEOs!




Well ran corporations!
DrMaddVibe Offline
#6 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,554
FuzzNJ wrote:
The worst offender, according to the report, is General Electric. The company – which drew fire earlier this year when its lack of taxes came to light – spent over $39 million on lobbyists in 2010 alone, to firms like Federal Policy Group and Capitol Tax Partners. The energy giant avoided paying any U.S. taxes, and indeed received tax rebates totaling over $4.7 billion over the three years studied.

PG&E spent the second most on lobbying among the corporations named. In fact, it topped GE’s 2010 totals, spending nearly $45.5 million on lobbying last year. From 2008 through 2010, the company spent just under $79 million on lobbying.




GE....Think

The "Bring good things to light" company?Think

OhOhMyGod THAT GE....


Jeffrey R. Immelt, the chairman and chief executive of General Electric Co. tapped by President Barack Obama as his next top outside economic adviser, will be asked to guide the White House as it attempts to jump-start lackluster job creation and spur a muddled recovery.

Immelt's firm stands as Exhibit A of a successful and profitable corporate America standing at the forefront of the recovery. It also represents the archetypal company that's hoarding cash, sending jobs overseas, relying on taxpayer bailouts and paying less taxes than envisioned.

The move is the latest salvo in the White House's continued aggressive and very public outreach to corporate America. Earlier this month, Obama appointed a top executive at JPMorgan Chase as his chief of staff, and this week he granted a longtime wish of business interests by promising to review federal regulations perceived as onerous.

Immelt's appointment raises fresh questions about Obama's courtship and future policy proposals. Firms like GE say good jobs will come from lower taxes and less regulation. Immelt told analysts Friday that he'll focus on tax policy and regulation, among other topics.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/21/obama-picks-jeffrey-immel-ge-jobs-overseas_n_812502.html



Remember...you don't play the association game Snickerdoodles.
FuzzNJ Offline
#7 Posted:
Joined: 06-28-2006
Posts: 13,000
DrMaddVibe wrote:
GE....Think

The "Bring good things to light" company?Think

OhOhMyGod THAT GE....


Jeffrey R. Immelt, the chairman and chief executive of General Electric Co. tapped by President Barack Obama as his next top outside economic adviser, will be asked to guide the White House as it attempts to jump-start lackluster job creation and spur a muddled recovery.

Immelt's firm stands as Exhibit A of a successful and profitable corporate America standing at the forefront of the recovery. It also represents the archetypal company that's hoarding cash, sending jobs overseas, relying on taxpayer bailouts and paying less taxes than envisioned.

The move is the latest salvo in the White House's continued aggressive and very public outreach to corporate America. Earlier this month, Obama appointed a top executive at JPMorgan Chase as his chief of staff, and this week he granted a longtime wish of business interests by promising to review federal regulations perceived as onerous.

Immelt's appointment raises fresh questions about Obama's courtship and future policy proposals. Firms like GE say good jobs will come from lower taxes and less regulation. Immelt told analysts Friday that he'll focus on tax policy and regulation, among other topics.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/21/obama-picks-jeffrey-immel-ge-jobs-overseas_n_812502.html



Remember...you don't play the association game Snickerdoodles.


Are you saying my position on this is not consistant?
DrMaddVibe Offline
#8 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,554
FuzzNJ wrote:
Are you saying my position on this is not consistant?



Ok...I'll play...what was your stand on:

Bill Ayers

Rev. Wright

Tony Rezko

FuzzNJ Offline
#9 Posted:
Joined: 06-28-2006
Posts: 13,000
DrMaddVibe wrote:
Ok...I'll play...what was your stand on:

Bill Ayers

Rev. Wright

Tony Rezko



Oh yeah! I'll play with you. What was your stand on:

the franco prussian war

Retzin in certs

The Finnish government


And all sorts of other things that have nothing to do with the subject. My opinion on any of those things have nothing at all to do with the subject, not even tangentially.

Sad you can't even take a stand on this issue without bringing up other non-related issues or compare it to people you disagree with.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#10 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,554
FuzzNJ wrote:
Sad you can't even take a stand on this issue without bringing up other non-related issues or compare it to people you disagree with.



My stand is that this administration is corrupt. Only History will determine to what level. In my eyes it is one of the if not the TOP 10 of all-time. It's really sad you lack the critical skills to see that. You're employing a "bury your head in the sand" technique or you've been playing "Peek-A-Boo" too long with the kids and really believe you're invisible!

Bypassing bankruptcy laws, packing his administration with criminals, enacting more agencies, eroding Constitutional rights and this constant rush to the bottom to make sure America is a land of have's and have nots while he tries to "school" and scold it's citizenry with his "God and Guns" comments when he believes the camera isn't on and his 57 states when it is!

GE tied to Obama is the same as Buffet tied to him which is the same as Soros. They're getting richer at the expense of our government. They're picking winners and losers right in front of your eyes and you elect to give them a pass and pretend you cannot see what's going on. Then when others...myself included...clearly show you, what do you do? You whine like a little school yard punk that's had the stuffing knocked out of them.

Get it through your head, if you lie down with dogs...you're going to get fleas. If you lie with pigs, you're wallowing in crap. The same goes for cronyism...and guilt by association. You really think for one second that either Buffet or Immelt are the best models for a sitting US President to seek counsel from? Look at the track record of both. One is the very same as Bain Capital (that you think is the scourge of the devil!) and the other is off-shoring jobs faster than water can possibly go down a drain. I read your posts. I really don't think you have the ability to comprehend this article. I blame it on the fact that you're a career student locked in a house with kids bouncing off the walls and you're fighting for MSNBC time over Dora the Explorer. You don't have anyone to discuss Current Events with so you do it here. It's apparent. You blame me for bringing up "non-related" issues and it's as plain as the smug look on your face! In this thread alone you bemoaned the "fact" that companies are shirking their fiscal responsibilities and the #1 offender is General Electric (GE). GE a company ran by....Immelt...Immelt a man that President Owedumba has decided to place as he "Economic Advisor". So here we have a guy that runs one of the largest companies in the world that isn't paying his fair share advising the President on the Economy and you arent' willing to connect the dots that this association is as toxic as Bill Ayers and the Underground Weathermen, Race-baiter Rev. Jerimiah Wright and convicted felon and influence peddler Tony Rezko...all in Obama's inner circle where he honed his political chops, but we're supposed to believe that NOTHING rubbed off on Obama Christ?

Yeah...Character DOES matter. Who you hang with rubs off. It doesn't matter what socio-economic circle you swim in.
HockeyDad Offline
#11 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,190
DrMaddVibe wrote:
GE tied to Obama is the same as Buffet tied to him which is the same as Soros. They're getting richer at the expense of our government. They're picking winners and losers right in front of your eyes and you elect to give them a pass and pretend you cannot see what's going on.



Well when you put it that way, you make the Obama Cone of Protection almost sound like a bad thing!
DrMaddVibe Offline
#12 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,554
HockeyDad wrote:
Well when you put it that way, you make the Obama Cone of Protection almost sound like a bad thing!



It's a skilled art.
pdxstogieman Offline
#13 Posted:
Joined: 10-04-2007
Posts: 5,219
DrMaddVibe wrote:
My stand is that this administration is corrupt. Only History will determine to what level. In my eyes it is one of the if not the TOP 10 of all-time. It's really sad you lack the critical skills to see that. You're employing a "bury your head in the sand" technique or you've been playing "Peek-A-Boo" too long with the kids and really believe you're invisible!

Bypassing bankruptcy laws, packing his administration with criminals, enacting more agencies, eroding Constitutional rights and this constant rush to the bottom to make sure America is a land of have's and have nots while he tries to "school" and scold it's citizenry with his "God and Guns" comments when he believes the camera isn't on and his 57 states when it is!

GE tied to Obama is the same as Buffet tied to him which is the same as Soros. They're getting richer at the expense of our government. They're picking winners and losers right in front of your eyes and you elect to give them a pass and pretend you cannot see what's going on. Then when others...myself included...clearly show you, what do you do? You whine like a little school yard punk that's had the stuffing knocked out of them.

Get it through your head, if you lie down with dogs...you're going to get fleas. If you lie with pigs, you're wallowing in crap. The same goes for cronyism...and guilt by association. You really think for one second that either Buffet or Immelt are the best models for a sitting US President to seek counsel from? Look at the track record of both. One is the very same as Bain Capital (that you think is the scourge of the devil!) and the other is off-shoring jobs faster than water can possibly go down a drain. I read your posts. I really don't think you have the ability to comprehend this article. I blame it on the fact that you're a career student locked in a house with kids bouncing off the walls and you're fighting for MSNBC time over Dora the Explorer. You don't have anyone to discuss Current Events with so you do it here. It's apparent. You blame me for bringing up "non-related" issues and it's as plain as the smug look on your face! In this thread alone you bemoaned the "fact" that companies are shirking their fiscal responsibilities and the #1 offender is General Electric (GE). GE a company ran by....Immelt...Immelt a man that President Owedumba has decided to place as he "Economic Advisor". So here we have a guy that runs one of the largest companies in the world that isn't paying his fair share advising the President on the Economy and you arent' willing to connect the dots that this association is as toxic as Bill Ayers and the Underground Weathermen, Race-baiter Rev. Jerimiah Wright and convicted felon and influence peddler Tony Rezko...all in Obama's inner circle where he honed his political chops, but we're supposed to believe that NOTHING rubbed off on Obama Christ?

Yeah...Character DOES matter. Who you hang with rubs off. It doesn't matter what socio-economic circle you swim in.


I'm sure Hockeydad will be along directly to require solid legal proof to support your accusations. and apply the "They're just more successful than you, therefore guilty until proven innocent" motion to quash your outrage.
Sarcasm
DrMaddVibe Offline
#14 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,554
#13...meet #11 & #12


horse


The Redundancy Department of Redundancy Department is a subsidiary of...


This message was brought to you by the manufacturers of "Hope And Change". "Hope and Change" and all of it's subsidiaries are proud to be a sponsor for the 44th American President. We recognize that "Hope and Change" is hard to define but it's our mission to deliver it to you and yours in a caring and responsible manner.


Please use responsibly and in the supervision of an adult.
HockeyDad Offline
#15 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,190
pdxstogieman wrote:
I'm sure Hockeydad will be along directly to require solid legal proof to support your accusations. and apply the "They're just more successful than you, therefore guilty until proven innocent" motion to quash your outrage.
Sarcasm




I love it when you people are bitter. You never thought that when you looked up to see "The Man" with his boot on your throat, you would see Barack Obama smiling back at you!

DrMaddVibe Offline
#16 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,554
11 stunning revelations from Larry Summers’s secret economics memo to Barack Obama
By James Pethokoukis
January 23, 2012, 3:08 pm

A lengthy piece in The New Yorker looks at policymaking in the Obama White House. A key source for writer Ryan Lizza is a 57-page, “Sensitive & Confidential” memo written by economist Larry Summers—eventually to be head of Obama’s National Economic Council—to Obama in December 2008. Here’s some of what I learned about Team Obama’s thinking as the financial crisis was exploding, followed by quotes from the memo itself:

1. The stimulus was about implementing the Obama agenda.

The short-run economic imperative was to identify as many campaign promises or high priority items that would spend out quickly and be inherently temporary. … The stimulus package is a key tool for advancing clean energy goals and fulfilling a number of campaign commitments.

2. Team Obama knows these deficits are dangerous (although it has offered no long-term plan to deal with them).

Closing the gap between what the campaign proposed and the estimates of the campaign offsets would require scaling back proposals by about $100 billion annually or adding new offsets totaling the same. Even this, however, would leave an average deficit over the next decade that would be worse than any post-World War II decade. This would be entirely unsustainable and could cause serious economic problems in the both the short run and the long run.

3. Obamanomics was pricier than advertised.

Your campaign proposals add about $100 billion per year to the deficit largely because rescoring indicates that some of your revenue raisers do not raise as much as the campaign assumed and some of your proposals cost more than the campaign assumed. … Treasury estimates that repealing the tax cuts above $250,000 would raise about $40 billion less than the campaign assumed. … The health plan is about $10 billion more costly than the campaign estimated and the health savings are about $25 billion lower than the campaign estimated.

4. Even Washington can only spend so much money so fast.

Constructing a package of this size, or even in the $500 billion range, is a major challenge. While the most effective stimulus is government investment, it is difficult to identify feasible spending projects on the scale that is needed to stabilize the macroeconomy. Moreover, there is a tension between the need to spend the money quickly and the desire to spend the money wisely. To get the package to the requisite size, and also to address other problems, we recommend combining it with substantial state fiscal relief and tax cuts for individuals and businesses.

5. Liberals can complain about the stimulus having too many tax cuts, but even Team Obama thought more spending was unrealistic.

As noted above, it is not possible to spend out much more than $225 billion in the next two years with high-priority investments and protections for the most vulnerable. This total, however, falls well short of what economists believe is needed for the economy, both in total and especially in 2009. As a result, to achieve our macroeconomic objectives—minimally the 2.5 million job goal—will require other sources of stimulus including state fiscal relief, tax cuts for individuals, or tax cuts for businesses.

6. Team Obama wanted to use courts to force massive mortgage principal writedowns.

The next step in the housing plan is responsible bankruptcy reform along the lines of the Durbin bill you cosponsored. This would allow bankruptcy courts to write down the principal of primary residences to the current market value. We recommend announcing this reform to begin immediately following the close of the enhanced Hope for Homeowners period.

7. Team Obama thought a stimulus plan of more than $1 trillion would spook financial markets and send interest rates climbing.

To accomplish a more significant reduction in the output gap would require stimulus of well over $1 trillion based on purely mechanical assumptions—which would likely not accomplish the goal because of the impact it would have on markets.

8. Greg Mankiw, economic adviser to Mitt Romney, was dubious about the stimulus.

Greg Mankiw is the only economist we have consulted with who refused to name a number and was generally skeptical about stimulus.

9. But the Fed was a stimulus enabler.

Senior Federal Reserve officials appear to be of the view that a plan that well exceeds $600 billion would be desirable.

10. IPAB was there at the very beginning.

There are two possibilities for making tough decisions on the long-run budget, which could be done either separately or together: creating an executive-branch “health board” (which focuses on one part of the issue) and a Congressionally chartered commission (which could focus more broadly).

11. The financial crisis wasn’t just Wall Street’s fault.

A significant cause of the current crisis lies in the failure of regulators to exercise vigorously the authority they already have.


http://blog.american.com/2012/01/11-stunning-revelations-from-larry-summers-secret-economics-memo-to-barack-obama/



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Summers


horse


I'm sure though there's nothing to see here either and that it's all above board and all.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cn63Ik7eJyk
HockeyDad Offline
#17 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,190
DrMaddVibe wrote:

1. The stimulus was about implementing the Obama agenda.

The short-run economic imperative was to identify as many campaign promises or high priority items that would spend out quickly and be inherently temporary. … The stimulus package is a key tool for advancing clean energy goals and fulfilling a number of campaign commitments.




Love that clean energy money! (plus we still subsidize unclean energy!)

GETTING PAID! GETTING PAID!
wheelrite Offline
#18 Posted:
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
Oil Sands Outrage !!
DrMaddVibe Offline
#19 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,554
Soros May Benefit From White House’s Natural Gas Proposal
Lachlan Markay - January 26, 2012


George Soros, a billionaire investor and major backer of President Obama, stands to reap a windfall from legislation promoting natural gas-powered vehicles. The White House unveiled a proposal on Thursday that would do just that.

The proposal would offer incentives for companies to buy and use trucks powered by natural gas. Obama announced the effort at a UPS facility in Las Vegas that received stimulus funding to buy natural gas vehicles and build a fueling station for them.

The proposal is remarkably similar to the New Alternative Transportation to Give Americans Solutions (NAT GAS) Act.
One company that stands to benefit handsomely from the president’s proposal is Westport Innovations. The company converts diesel engines to be fueled by natural gas. Wall Street analysts predicted a boom for the company if the NAT GAS Act were passed. CNBC analyst Jim Cramer said he “expects shares to absolutely explode” in the event the legislation were to pass.

Jim Cramer made positive mention of Westport, calling it a solid play on natural gas should Congress pass its pending Natural Gas Act. Westport converts diesel engines (i.e. – those found in semi trailers) into ones that run on natural gas.

Benefiting Westport is that it’s: A) basically first to the market, at least in terms of mass production, and B) high barriers of entry for competition because of the complex technology involved in the transformations.

If Westport reaps the predicted windfall, one of the chief beneficiaries will be George Soros, a major Obama donor and supporter. Soros’s hedge fund holds 3,160,063 company shares (as of its last SEC filing).

Soros has given $384,090 to the Democratic Party, Democratic PACs, and Democratic Candidates in the three election cycles beginning in 2008, including $4,400 to Obama himself, according to the Center for Responsive Politics. He describes himself as “an early supporter of Barack Obama, first in his Senate campaign in Illinois and later when he ran for President. Soros supported Obama in his presidential bid because he believed he could provide the transformational leadership the country needed.”

http://blog.heritage.org/2012/01/26/soros-may-benefit-from-white-houses-natural-gas-proposal/



Yeah.

So NOW the Kenyan King wants to drill in the Gulf? ( http://www.chron.com/news/politics/article/Obama-says-U-S-moves-in-right-direction-on-2743311.php )After bungling the whole disaster with the oil spill NOW he wants to do something? After he KILLED off the Keystone XL Pipeline too...that sounds like picking winners and losers to me...

"We're moving in the right direction when it comes to oil and gas production," Obama said Thursday. The remarks came in Las Vegas on Obama's Western swing to tout his energy plan that calls for more oil and gas development and renewable energy as well as efficiency incentives for businesses.

He seeks to promote the use of natural gas vehicles by:

* Asking Congress to pass incentives for bus and truck conversion.

* Promoting highway corridors with natural gas refueling stations.

* Launching an Energy Department research competition to develop natural gas technologies."


or he's hedging his bets, er donations from all angles. Yeah, there's nothing to see here though...no association going on...no corruption...just your garden variety influence peddling...move along. Keep it movin'...Go on, go on, go on...
HockeyDad Offline
#20 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,190
INSIDER TRADING! INSIDER TRADING!

Oh wait, Jim Cramer already pointed the trading advantage out.
HockeyDad Offline
#21 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,190
Natural gas = FRACKING

outrageous!

Whistle
DrMaddVibe Offline
#22 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,554
HockeyDad wrote:
INSIDER TRADING! INSIDER TRADING!

Oh wait, Jim Cramer already pointed the trading advantage out.



Sad you can't even take a stand ...oh...wait...nevermind.
joshvoigt Offline
#23 Posted:
Joined: 10-13-2010
Posts: 182
And that's a surprise?
pdxstogieman Offline
#24 Posted:
Joined: 10-04-2007
Posts: 5,219
HockeyDad wrote:
Natural gas = FRACKING

outrageous!

Whistle



The benefits of fracking coming to a county near you soon. (Consider this the requisite pithy comment preceeding a cut and paste as demanded of any posters with viewpoints to the left of Attila the Hun, the self appointed hall monitor DMV) I'm sure these people living in proximity to the fracking in the Keystone state are all simply envious of successful energy company executives and that's what is behind all their whining about no doubt imagined effects of fracking. Sarcasm

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/20/magazine/fracking-amwell-township.html?pagewanted=all

^ Note URL as attribution of source of cut and pasted article lest politics board hall monitor accuse me of plagiarism due to URL reference being in unbolded font. URL is highlighted for the sight challenged.

The Fracturing of Pennsylvania

Amwell Township is a 44-square-mile plot of steep ravines and grassy pasturelands planted with alfalfa, trefoil and timothy in the southwestern corner of Pennsylvania. It’s home to some 4,000 people, most of whom live in villages named Amity, Lone Pine and Prosperity.


From some views, this diamond-shaped cut of land looks like the hardscrabble farmland it has been since the 18th century, when English and Scottish settlers successfully drove away the members of a Native American village. Arrowheads still line the streambeds. Hickory trees march out along its high, dry ridges. Box elders ring the lower, wetter gullies. The air smells of sweet grass. Cows moo. Horses whinny.

From other vantages, it looks like an American natural-gas field, home to 10 gas wells, a compressor station — which feeds fresh gas into pipelines leading to homes hundreds of miles away — and what was, until late this summer, an open five-acre water-impoundment chemical pond. Trucks rev engines over fresh earth. Backhoes grind stubborn stones. Pipeline snakes beneath clear-cut hillsides.

The township sits atop the Marcellus Shale Deposit, one of the largest fields of natural gas in the world, a formation that stretches beneath 575 miles of West Virginia, Pennsylvania, Ohio and New York. Shale gas, even its fiercest critics concede, presents an opportunity for the United States to be less dependent on foreign oil. According to Wood Mackenzie, an energy-consulting firm, the Marcellus formation will supply 6 percent of America’s gas this year, a figure expected to more than double by 2020.

About five years ago, leases began to appear in the mailboxes of residents of Amwell Township from Range Resources, a Texas-based oil company seeking to harvest gas through hydraulic fracturing. “Fracking,” as it is known, is a process of natural-gas drilling that involves pumping vast quantities of water, sand and chemicals thousands of feet into the earth to crack the deep shale deposits and free bubbles of gas from the ancient, porous rock. Harvesting this gas promises either to provide Americans with a clean domestic energy source or to despoil rural areas and poison our air and drinking water, depending on whom you ask.

On Nov. 21, the Delaware River Basin Commission, which involves four states — Pennsylvania, New Jersey, New York and Delaware — will vote on rules governing fracking in the river’s watershed, which supplies some 15 million people with drinking water. The states most affected will be New York and Pennsylvania, which sit on the Marcellus Shale, where the gas is closest to the surface.

This summer, Gov. Andrew Cuomo of New York moved to lift the state’s yearlong moratorium on fracking against vocal opposition from environmentalists and many local residents. Following a series of hearings this month, New York will decide whether to allow fracking early next year. In the meantime, New Yorkers are looking to Pennsylvania, the first neighbor to welcome fracking, as a model.

There are more than 4,000 Marcellus wells in Pennsylvania, with projections ranging from 2,500 new wells a year to a total of more than 100,000 over the next few decades; 458 of those wells are in Washington County and 60 are in Amwell Township, to which fracking has given an injection of new income and business; it has also spurred one of the first E.P.A. investigations into fracking’s effects on rivers, streams, drinking water and human health.

Just before Christmas in 2008, a handful of neighbors granted Range Resources the right to drill thousands of feet below their homes and up to two miles in any direction. Signing leases here is nothing new. For the past 200 years, one industry after another has extracted minerals from the land. In the 1800s, it was coal; in the 1900s it was glass, coke and steel and industrial mining. “Sooner or later, somebody wants to go around, under or through you,” one farmer and gun-shop proprietor told me. “You make your best deal and you talk to a lawyer. At least these companies pay something up front.”

What these companies paid was more than many people in Amwell Township, where the per capita income in the 2000 census was $18,285, were accustomed to seeing in their lifetimes, even if the windfall wasn’t the same for everyone. Next-door neighbors made, upon signing, between $1,500 and more than $500,000 for the same amount of land. Curiously enough, the huge gap in payments didn’t cause much trouble among neighbors, at least at first. Most, if they express a political viewpoint at all, are old-school libertarians who believe each man has the right to live by his will and abilities.

The conflict instead is between “country folk and city people,” Bill Hartley, 63, a barber and a cattle farmer told me. “The country folk want the drilling and have mineral rights. The city folk don’t want the drilling and have no rights to sell.”

At Hartley’s Styling Shop, the barbershop Hartley has run out of a rented trailer on his great-great-grandfather’s farm for the past 16 years, the gas boom is all anyone talks about. There’s a barber pole spinning outside and a Jacuzzi in the bathroom. A John Deere clock tells time according to a tractor. When I met Hartley there early last spring, he was alone, reclining in his barber’s chair and chain-smoking, as he had been for hours, or maybe years. The trailer’s air and Naugahyde chairs were saturated with stale smoke.

“Do you mind if I smoke?” he asked. I didn’t. “Good, because I would have told you, ‘Tough.’ ” Hartley, who has the long, hollow face of an Appalachian Marlboro Man, keeps 35 cows on 110 acres of rocky fields of fescue. Until recently, like most farmers he knows, he needed a second job to pay for the cows. Raising cows costs more than $300 a head per year. It takes a good year for Hartley to break even. Now he has more money than he ever imagined. Signing his gas lease at “a little more” than $1,000 an acre netted him in excess of $110,000 upon signing, plus 12.5 percent of the royalties from gas produced on his land. Hartley prefers not to discuss exact amounts. “That’s nobody’s business,” he said. But after the first couple of years, production tends to drop off precipitously, and the royalty checks will dwindle. So Hartley still cuts hair. “And I like people,” he said.

As Hartley sees it, the gas industry has helped him to preserve his farm, cows and way of life. “I don’t want to say you have to be born into it,” he said. “But it has to be in your blood.”

The Marcellus boom has brought a host of economic benefits to Western Pennsylvania — new jobs, booked motel rooms, busy food franchises and newly paved roads — and promises to bring more. According to a recent study by Pennsylvania State University, the industry has created 23,000 jobs, including employment for roustabouts, construction workers, helicopter pilots, sign makers, Laundromat workers, electricians, caterers, chambermaids, office workers, water haulers and land surveyors. Not to mention that leaseholders are saving, on average, 55 percent of the money they make upon signing leases and 66 percent of their royalties, according to the Pennsylvania State University study.

Hartley’s cousin Stacey Haney lives two and a half miles from Hartley’s farm. A brown-haired, blue-eyed former beautician, Haney, 42, is a nurse at the nearby Washington Hospital. Hartley and Haney share a kind of tough self-reliance, as well as a quick, dark wit.

“We came into this world poor, and we’ll go out of this world poor,” Haney says. This is her family’s motto. Haney — a single mother who wears her hair in a shag — works full time and is raising her two children, Paige, 12, and Harley, 15, along with an ark of 4-H animals. Her father, Larry, whom everyone calls Pappy, is a steelworker. He has had long stints of unemployment, beginning when Stacey was in second grade. He’s also a sometime farmer whose butternuts have won first place so often at the Washington County Fair that no one else bothers to enter anymore. The fair is the highlight of the Haneys’ year: beribboned photos of their award-winning rabbits, goats and pigs line the walls of their immaculate three-bedroom home, which Haney has hand-stenciled with deer tracks.

When the natural-gas industry came to town, Haney saw an opportunity to pay off farm bills and make a profit from the land. Word had it that the companies were interested in signing up large parcels, so in the winter of 2008, Haney, who owned only eight acres, persuaded two of her neighbors to pool their land on a lease for which she was paid, in installments, $1,000 dollars per acre and 15 percent royalties.

The money would help to pay the taxes on their farms. The land man who came to the Haney home to sell the lease showed pictures of a farm and pasture with a well cap “the size of a garbage can,” Haney said, which she found reassuring. And it didn’t seem as if the drilling would affect their lives much. Range Resources was involved in the community in small ways too. For the past several years, it operated a booth at the Washington County Fair. In 2010, the company offered kids an extra $100 for the farm animals they auctioned. That was the year Stacey Haney’s son, Harley, took his breeding goat, Boots, all the way to grand champion.

At the fair, Haney ran into her next-door neighbor, Beth Voyles, 54, a horse trainer and dog breeder, who signed the lease with Haney in 2008. She told Haney that her 11 /2-year-old boxer, Cummins, had just died. Voyles thought that he was poisoned. She saw the dog drinking repeatedly from a puddle of road runoff, and she thought that the water the gas company used to wet down the roads probably had antifreeze in it. “We do not use ethylene glycol in the fracking process,” Matt Pitzarella of Range Resources told me. He also said that the dog’s veterinarian couldn’t confirm the dog had been poisoned and that another possible cause of death was cancer.

A month later, Haney’s dog, Hunter, also died suddenly. Soon after, Voyles called Haney to tell her that her barrel horse, Jody, was dead. Lab results revealed a high level of toxicity in her liver. Voyles sent her animals’ test results to Range Resources. In response, Range Resources wrote to Voyles to say that, as the veterinarian indicated, the horse died of toxicity of the liver, not antifreeze poisoning. The company did acknowledge that the vet suspected the horse died of poisoning by heavy metals. Subsequent tests of the Voyleses’ water supply by Range Resources revealed no heavy metals.

Voyles’s boxers began to abort litters of puppies; six were born with cleft palates. They died within hours. Others were born dead or without legs or hair. Unsure what to do, Voyles stored 15 of the puppies in her freezer. (Range Resources says it was never notified about the puppies.) By December, Boots, the grand-champion goat, aborted two babies. Haney had to put her down the day after Christmas.

What was going on with the animals? Where were the toxic chemicals in their blood coming from? Haney feared that the arrival of the gas industry and the drilling that had begun less than 1,000 feet from her home might have something to do with it.

In Amwell Township, your opinion of fracking tends to correspond with how much money you’re making and with how close you live to the gas wells, chemical ponds, pipelines and compressor stations springing up in the area. Many of those who live nearby fear that a leak in the plastic liner of a chemical pond could drip into a watershed or that a truck spill could send carcinogens into a field of beef cattle. (According to the Pennsylvania Department of Environmental Protection, 65 Marcellus wells drilled this year have been cited for faulty cement casings, which could result in leaks.) But for many other residents, including Haney’s neighbors, the risks seem small, and the benefits — clean fuel, economic development — far outweigh them.

On a Saturday morning in July 2011, Bill Hartley’s Styling Shop bustled with clients — a truck driver, a leaseholder, a landowner — all of whom profited from the gas boom. One was Ray Day, 64, a ginger-haired farmer, who, along with his brothers and sisters, owns nearly 300 acres of Amwell Township. Thanks to the money he received from allowing Range Resources to drill, build a compressor station and dig a chemical pond on his land, he has been able to reroof two barns, buy a new hay baler and construct an addition to his house for his 94-year-old mother. “I only buy something if I can pay cash,” Day said later. And he still has plenty of money left over. Was he planning a vacation, maybe to Florida? Day snorted good-naturedly. “Farmers don’t go to Florida,” he said.

A few days later, I met up with Day off 1-79 at the Amity-Lone Pine exit, a little more than a mile from Stacey Haney’s home, and followed him past the local elementary school to a barn, with a white wooden sign that said Day Farm 1912. We drove a few thousand yards up a steep hill to a gated compound, where we were met by a young woman who’d come from West Virginia, along with her husband, a driller, to work as a security guard for Range Resources. She called headquarters to confirm my permission to visit. As we waited, Day pointed out a 40-by-100 fabric hoop structure where he stores round bales of hay. During the hydraulic fracturing, which took place 24 hours a day in March and April 2010, the huge open shed served as a parking area and meeting place.

Day pointed to where there had been a truck spill of chemically treated water used in fracking, and then he pointed to the stream below, which flows into the watershed at Ten-Mile Creek and then onto the Monongahela River. The spill hadn’t reached the stream, he said. Moreover, he’d been impressed with Range Resource’s openness about what happened. Every hour while fracking, workers walked the temporary plastic pipeline, full of chemical water, that ran between his site and the pond near Stacey Haney’s home. While walking the line, workers discovered several cracks that spilled frack water on the frozen ground. Such cracks are not unusual. “We all know they leak,” one Range employee wrote in an internal e-mail, which has become a matter of public record pending a lawsuit.

“None of it leaked on my property,” Day said later. Finally, the guard let us go up and take a look at the 3.5-acre chemical impoundment, known as a frack pond, which was 20 feet deep. The used frack water, called flowback, was milky gray. The aerators hummed. The impoundment, like many nearby, sat at the top of a watershed. We’d only been at the pond for a couple of minutes before a sedan raced up the hill behind us. My access had been denied. Later, Matt Pitzarella, a spokesman for Range Resources, said that OSHA regulations regarding equipment and the company’s own safety standards required that all visitors wear protective gear.

Day drove me next to the well pad, a football field of cement and a few condensate tanks that painters were rendering forest green. Long before the recent drillers came, this was named the Well Field, after an oil well locals said was drilled here in the 1920s. Like some of his neighbors, Day signed a gas lease in part to protect his land from what he saw as a far more rapacious industry headed his way: long-wall coal mining, a process that takes a ribbon of coal out of a seam over miles. “Long-wall mining is so much more destructive than this, the way I see it,” he said. “Hopefully with these pipes they wouldn’t want to mine coal underneath us.”

The fracturing was now over, the major pieces of equipment were gone and the field was replanted with medium red clover. Day wasn’t concerned about the impact of drilling. “Nothing I’ve seen would indicate an adverse effect,” he said, “except the odor coming off the compressor station.” (Range Resources­ told Day that the smell comes from anaerobic bacteria that are more prevalent in this fracking process but that they are harmless. Investigating air quality around compressor stations is part of the E.P.A.’s ongoing study.) Day, like most of his neighbors, trusted the companies to use best practices. A man’s word means a lot here. After all, without regulation or oversight, he and other farmers worked together to do things like fence streams to keep cattle out of them.

We drove back through an alfalfa field to the farm. “You haven’t asked me what my profession is,” Day said. I’d assumed he was a farmer. “No one here could survive on farming,” he replied. “I taught science in local schools for 35 years.”

For Day and others, allowing the gas company to drill on their land isn’t simply a matter of cash. They also firmly believe that natural gas should be used as a bridge between foreign oil and sustainable energy sources, like solar and wind. “Natural gas is the most eco-friendly fuel source that we have,” said Rick Baker, 59, a piano tuner who lives on 91 acres located between Bill Hartley and Stacey Haney. “Some people will argue with me on this, but it burns clean.” He’s such a proponent of drilling that he even agreed to star in a commercial for Range Resources, for which he was paid $200.

About a year before Haney’s dog died, in the summer of 2009, she began to notice that sometimes her water was black and that it seemed to be eating away at her faucets, washing machine, hot-water heater and dishwasher. When she took a shower, the smell was terrible — like rotten eggs and diarrhea. Haney started buying bottled water for drinking and cooking, but she couldn’t afford to do the same for her animals.

Later that summer, her son, Harley, was stricken with mysterious stomach pains and periods of extreme fatigue, which sent him to the emergency room and to Pittsburgh’s Children’s Hospital a half-dozen times. “He couldn’t lift his head out of my lap,” Haney said. Early in November of the following year, after the animals died, Haney decided to have Harley tested for heavy metals and ethylene glycol. While she waited for the results, Haney called Range Resources and asked that it supply her with drinking water. The company tested her water and found nothing wrong with it. Haney’s father began to haul water to her barn.

A week later, on Haney’s 41st birthday, Harley’s test results came back. Harley had elevated levels of arsenic. Haney called Range Resources again. The company delivered a 5,100-gallon tank of drinking water, called a water buffalo, the next day. “Our policy is if you have a complaint or a concern, we’ll supply you with a water source within 24 hours,” Pitzarella of Range Resources said. He added that the company has “never seen any evidence that anyone in that household has arsenic issues.”

Popular concerns about natural-gas drilling have centered on what chemicals companies are putting into the earth, not least because this list is a proprietary secret. In 2005, Vice President ****** Cheney spearheaded an amendment to the energy bill, which critics call the Halliburton Loophole. This legislation exempts hydraulic fracturing from the Safe Drinking Water Act and protects companies like Halliburton, of which Cheney was once the C.E.O., from disclosing what chemicals are going into the ground.

But the problem, it turns out, lies also in the dissolved substances coming out: namely salts (bromides, chlorides), radionuclides like strontium and barium, as well as what are commonly called BTEX (benzene, toluene, ethylbenzene), volatile organic compounds that can be injurious to human health.

The industry acknowledges that the question of how to handle the wastewater that comes from fracking is one of its most pressing problems. In Pennsylvania this problem is particularly acute. Pennsylvania’s geological formations, unlike those of other states where natural-gas drilling has occurred, don’t allow for the usual method of disposal: injection wells that store flowback deep below the earth’s surface. Disposing of the chemical water has meant trucking it to another state or paying local treatment facilities to process it. The facilities, which are not equipped to remove salts, have often sent the frack water back into local rivers. In 2008, a United States Steel plant in Clairton, Pa., complained that the water from the Monongahela River was unfit for use. Loaded with salts, the water tasted and smelled odd and was corroding not only industrial equipment but also dishwashers and kitchen faucets. For several months, the Monongahela River, which provides most people in the Pittsburgh area with drinking water, no longer met state and federal standards. Following a request from the State of Pennsylvania, the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers found it would require five times the amount of water in their reservoirs to dilute the river. It took five months to clean it up.

“Salt is a serious problem,” Rose Reilly, a water biologist for the Army Corps of Engineers, said. It has to be managed like any other pollutant. “It isn’t biodegradable.”

This past spring, in response to public outcry, Pennsylvania’s Department of Environmental Protection asked gas companies to stop sending flowback to treatment plants. But it was a request — not a regulation. And enacting such measures is expensive. Shale gas is different from other kinds of oil exploration because there’s no eureka moment. If you drill, you’re sure to hit it. “This is a widget business,” says Bobby Vagt, president of the Heinz Endowment, a Pittsburgh-based nonprofit that supports development in southwestern Pennsylvania; he ran gas and oil companies in Texas for 15 years. “The lower you can keep the costs — of every step of the process, including pipelines and road building — the more money you’re going to make.”

The challenge, as Tim Kelsey, a professor of agricultural economics at Pennsylvania State, points out, “is making sure that the community isn’t left holding the bag.” This is an economic issue as much as an environmental one. Banks have expressed reluctance to back home mortgages within up to three miles of a well. Whole towns could become brown fields, and home values would drop precipitously. Currently, companies operating in Pennsylvania pay no tax to extract gas. (Gov. Tom Corbett reportedly received at least $1 million in campaign donations from gas interests.) Corbett recently introduced legislation that would levy fees that critics say would amount to a tax of 1 percent per well on gas extraction, significantly lower than Arkansas (3.54 percent) and Texas (5.4 percent). Pennsylvania Democrats call the measure, which they see as friendly to oil and gas interests, “Drill, baby, drill.”

But for men like Bill Hartley and others who welcome the arrival of fracking in the state, it’s not the politics of deep drilling that matter. What matters is preserving common resources. “My one concern is our water,” Hartley said. “My grandfather taught me water is life.”

On Sunday May 8, 2011, Mother’s Day, when Haney and her kids were returning from dinner at a nearby Cracker Barrel restaurant, they turned onto McAdams Road, and the smell of raw sewage was “enough to make you gag,” Haney’s daughter, Paige, told me. They weren’t the only ones to smell it. Beth Voyles, Haney’s neighbor, called the Department of Environmental Protection to register yet another complaint about the stench. The D.E.P. sent out a water specialist, John Carson. His field notes, made public following a subpoena, indicate that he, too, smelled a “strong odor” at the impoundment but not on her property. Voyles claims that Carson refused to take her complaint. When asked for comment, a D.E.P. spokesman, Kevin Sunday, said in an e-mail that the “D.E.P. responds promptly to any and all complaints. There is an ongoing investigation into the impoundment. This is a matter of active litigation and cannot be discussed further.” Range Resources says that the D.E.P. visited the area on 24 separate occasions and found no malodor.

Range Resources did have an explanation: the power had failed at the impoundment, shutting down the aerators that move oxygen into the water to prevent bacteria from growing. Range Resources maintains that a D.E.P. study from 2010 indicates no air pollution of any kind at the pond next door to the Haneys and the Voyleses, or anywhere else, for that matter. Critics of this study say the effect of fracking on air quality remains underinvestigated.

That same day, when Voyles told Range Resources she had developed blisters in her nose, it offered to put her up in a hotel, as it does for all nuisance complaints, but she didn’t want to leave her dogs and horses behind. (Range later said that it had no record of the complaint.) Next door on McAdams Road, Haney and her kids began to have intense periods of dizziness and nosebleeds. Of the three, Harley was the worst off. Haney took him to their family physician, Craig Fox, in the nearby town of Washington. Like most local doctors, Dr. Fox had never seen such symptoms before.

Haney says that Dr. Fox’s advice to her was unequivocal: “Get Harley out of that house right away. I don’t want him anywhere near there, even driving by, for 30 days.” So Haney took Harley to a friend’s house in Eighty-Four, a town named for the lumber company. She took her daughter to her parents’ house in Amity. Each day, she spent about four hours in the car shuttling the kids from school, to and from friends’ homes and driving to the farm to feed the animals, which were O.K. some days and vomiting or collapsing on others. Haney found a cousin willing to take her pigs, but she had nowhere to house the other animals, so they remained at the farm. She stayed home for less than an hour at a time, long enough to put a load of laundry into the washer. Every two days, she spent $50 on gas. Their farmhouse stood abandoned. “Our home has become a $300,000 cat mansion,” Haney said when I visited her in July.

Haney is no left-leaning environmentalist; she is a self-proclaimed redneck who is proud to trace her roots here back at least 150 years. This is not the kind of fight she usually takes on. “I’m not going to sit back and let them make my kids sick,” she says. “People ask me why I don’t just move out, but where would I go? I can’t afford another mortgage, and if I default on this place, we will lose it. ”

Beth Voyles is equally frustrated. Although the results of her medical tests are inconclusive, she complains of blisters in her nose and throat, headaches and nosebleeds, joint aches, rashes, an inability to concentrate, a metal taste in her mouth. Voyles filed suit against the Department of Environmental Protection in May. Range Resources chose to join the case, because its rights are also at stake. Documents from industry sources and the D.E.P. — now a matter of public record — support the suit’s allegations of a series of structural violations and hazardous incidents surrounding the pond. They include half a dozen tears in the pond’s plastic liner (at least one caused by a deer — its carcass had to be dragged out); at least four cracks in a temporary plastic transfer pipeline leading to an open field; two truck spills, one of which contaminated a cattle pasture; and a leak in an adjacent pond that held drill cuttings. Range admits that after this leak, the level of total dissolved solids, or salts, spiked in the water. Of all these violations, the D.E.P. issued a citation for only the last. The D.E.P. declined to comment, citing the ongoing case.

In mid-July, Voyles’s 25-year-old daughter, Ashley, was riding her paint gelding, Dude, behind the chemical pond. Ashley could hear a hissing and bubbling sound in the stream. There were pools of red foamy oil slick. “It was rainbow water,” Ashley said. The next morning Haney and Voyles called in the alphabet soup of government agencies they’ve contacted over the past year to test the water in the pools: the D.E.P., the E.P.A., the Fish and Boat Commission. They also called Range Resources. Sunday, the D.E.P. spokesman, said that it was most likely decayed vegetation that gave off gas. Later, test results of the area commissioned by Range Resources revealed the presence of acetone, toluene, benzene, phenol, arsenic, barium, heavy metals and methane. The company maintains that none of these were found in drinking water.

Bill Hartley, Rick Baker, Beth Voyles and Stacey Haney received their first royalty checks this summer from the nine gas wells that lie on the square mile between them. Stacey used most of her $9,000 check to pay off the bills she incurred: $4,500 went to co-pays and deductibles for doctors’ visits; $1,150 went to pay for gas. She set $2,700 aside to pay taxes on the earnings. The remaining $750 she used as a down payment on a camper. Haney finally moved the kids to live behind her parents’ home in Amity. Subsequently, the benzene and toluene levels in each of her children’s urine dropped precipitously. For Haney, who continues to return to the farm to feed the animals every evening, the benzene and toluene levels remain higher. Harley still suffers from acute nausea, for which his doctor has prescribed Zofran, a medication frequently given to chemotherapy patients. “They’ve ruined our lives,” Haney said. “I have to worry every day if my kids are going to have cancer. I will worry for the rest of my life about them with the amount of carcinogens we now have in our blood. We’ve lost everything — our pets, the value of our house. No amount of money that we’d ever get from royalties would ever replace my children’s health.”

The people of Amwell are no strangers to the price of development — the loss of a farm’s spring, the sinking of a family home when the coal mine burrows beneath it — or the price of its absence — shuttered mills and lost jobs. But given our energy needs, the use of fracking and the number of wells are likely to grow. The question is whether regulations to address environmental and health issues can keep pace with a booming industry.

Haney’s neighbors have heard about Harley’s illness. “I don’t know what to make of it,” his cousin Bill Hartley says. “It could very well be there’s a leak in the pond.” Haney’s neighbor Rick Baker is also unsure of what the problem is. “I don’t deny there’s something going on there,” he said. “It concerns me.” He called Range Resources after it first delivered the water buffalo to say he was glad the company was taking care of the problem. Baker stands by the positive impact the industry has had on Amwell and thousands of other townships. “This is definitely the right thing for Western Pennsylvania,” he says. “We’re sitting on one of the largest natural-gas reserves in the world. We need this natural gas to keep functioning.” And the economic benefits were essential, he adds. “There are still people sitting in bars waiting for the steel mills to reopen.” Yet Baker says he feels different from the way he did six months ago, when we first spoke. “The safety and environmental issues have to be addressed,” he says. The future scares him. With big oil — Chevron, BP, among others — looking to get involved in the industry, Baker fears that it won’t be accountable to individuals like himself and Haney.

Haney still made it to this year’s Washington County Fair, where her daughter, Paige, lost the Spam bake-off. Paige’s goat, Crunch, won first place, and her rabbit, Phantom, almost took best in show. As usual, Pappy’s butternuts placed first. In the fair’s main hall at the craft division, a glossy ribbon hung from a child’s three-foot high Lego Patterson rig, a model of a gas well. It won first prize.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#25 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,554
So...you're a HUGE fan of Pappy's butternuts.
Drool
Thanks for giving us the lost chapter of the Dead Sea Scroll.whip

Sure there was a point you wanted to make there that maybe a paragraph or sentence would suffice...maybe a little paraphrasing by your own POV...whatever.
pdxstogieman Offline
#26 Posted:
Joined: 10-04-2007
Posts: 5,219
DrMaddVibe wrote:
So...you're a HUGE fan of Pappy's butternuts.
Drool
Thanks for giving us the lost chapter of the Dead Sea Scroll.whip

Sure there was a point you wanted to make there that maybe a paragraph or sentence would suffice...maybe a little paraphrasing by your own POV...whatever.


Hey Choadbrain, if you missed the point, the point was in my one liner prior to the cut and paste, i.e., the sarcastic rejoinder to HD's post, since he's such an ardent proponent of fracking and all things energy extractive regardless of method.

Since I provided the URL at the beginning of the post, you could've exercised your libertarian free will to not read the pasted version of the article, and simply do what you always do and simply reply with a pissy post such as you have in this case if you perceive the OP is someone with different viewpoints than your own, without even reading the cut and pasted article you're complaining about relative to it's length.

I can only assume that it is either a horrific inconvenience for you to hold your finger down on the scroll button to get past it or you think the swedes are passing on the cost of the storage space for this post to you in the form of higher cigar prices. But if you were concerned about the latter issue, then you wouldn't be the most prolific poster on this entire board in terms of number of posts and space taken up with your own ceaselessly repetitive diatribes and flaccid Arthur Fonzarelli-esque "zingers".

DrMaddVibe Offline
#27 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,554
pdxstogieman wrote:
Hey Choadbrain, if you missed the point, the point was in my one liner prior to the cut and paste, i.e., the sarcastic rejoinder to HD's post, since he's such an ardent proponent of fracking and all things energy extractive regardless of method.

Since I provided the URL at the beginning of the post, you could've exercised your libertarian free will to not read the pasted version of the article, and simply do what you always do and simply reply with a pissy post such as you have in this case if you perceive the OP is someone with different viewpoints than your own, without even reading the cut and pasted article you're complaining about relative to it's length.

I can only assume that it is either a horrific inconvenience for you to hold your finger down on the scroll button to get past it or you think the swedes are passing on the cost of the storage space for this post to you in the form of higher cigar prices. But if you were concerned about the latter issue, then you wouldn't be the most prolific poster on this entire board in terms of number of posts and space taken up with your own ceaselessly repetitive diatribes and flaccid Arthur Fonzarelli-esque "zingers".




There are 16 posters that you have to go through to take a run at me if you really want to make a big issue about posts. It's laughable that that's where you even want to go. Can't you make a point by yourself? (Choadbrain? Now you're just making up words.)Because you lack the ability to make a cognizant point without an epic paste job that makes the Magna Carta seem diminutive. Then you invoke the original jumping the shark character without even knowing exactly what it is you're doing. You're actually funny but not in a humourous way...You're more a way that someone would walk out of a bathroom with their fly open or toilet paper coming out of the back of their pants way.

Like a trained monkey you DID put the URL in there...good. You were plagiarizing and got busted on it. Memory serves me right it was on the very thread on Fracking. Instead of posting your Epic there you chose to spill it out here because HD was using his sense of humor. See, he's funny....ha ha...you're not funny ha ha...you're actually pretty pathetic. Maybe there's some place where you can hone your chops and post with the Big Boys but your stay here has shown that this isn't the place for it. Why, you're a fish out of water....and you're starting to stink.
HockeyDad Offline
#28 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,190
pdxstogieman wrote:
Hey Choadbrain, if you missed the point, the point was in my one liner prior to the cut and paste, i.e., the sarcastic rejoinder to HD's post, since he's such an ardent proponent of fracking and all things energy extractive regardless of method.




Le HockeyDad ca be either for fracking or against fracking. My man B wants natural gas....we got fracking and pipelines. Le HockeyDad wins. My man B kills Keystone XL so no crude oil....we got ethanol and E-25 and maybe even ethanol pipelines one day. Le HockeyDad wins. If my man B changes his mind and wants Canadian oil.....we get Keystone XL. Le HockeyDad wins.

See the trend? Le HockeyDad got you covered whether you want green or brown. Honey badger don't care! Le HockeyDad wins....."The Man's" boot remains on pdxstogieman and FuzzNJ's throats and my man B is part of the whole thing. I hope we can count on your support on election day to stop the evil Republicans!

Buckwheat Offline
#29 Posted:
Joined: 04-15-2004
Posts: 12,251
IMHO. The real problem is not taxes but how and what the tax money is being spent. fog
DrMaddVibe Offline
#30 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,554
Buckwheat wrote:
IMHO. The real problem is not taxes but how and what the tax money is being spent. fog



...and FRACKING and Pappy's butternuts or so Mr. Steamer wants us to believe!
DrMaddVibe Offline
#31 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,554
HockeyDad wrote:
Le HockeyDad ca be either for fracking or against fracking. My man B wants natural gas....we got fracking and pipelines. Le HockeyDad wins. My man B kills Keystone XL so no crude oil....we got ethanol and E-25 and maybe even ethanol pipelines one day. Le HockeyDad wins. If my man B changes his mind and wants Canadian oil.....we get Keystone XL. Le HockeyDad wins.

See the trend? Le HockeyDad got you covered whether you want green or brown. Honey badger don't care! Le HockeyDad wins....."The Man's" boot remains on pdxstogieman and FuzzNJ's throats and my man B is part of the whole thing. I hope we can count on your support on election day to stop the evil Republicans!




Gawwwd, when ya put it like that....


http://tinyurl.com/7n2khpm


whip
pdxstogieman Offline
#32 Posted:
Joined: 10-04-2007
Posts: 5,219
DrMaddVibe wrote:
There are 16 posters that you have to go through to take a run at me if you really want to make a big issue about posts. It's laughable that that's where you even want to go. Can't you make a point by yourself? (Choadbrain? Now you're just making up words.)Because you lack the ability to make a cognizant point without an epic paste job that makes the Magna Carta seem diminutive. Then you invoke the original jumping the shark character without even knowing exactly what it is you're doing. You're actually funny but not in a humourous way...You're more a way that someone would walk out of a bathroom with their fly open or toilet paper coming out of the back of their pants way.

Like a trained monkey you DID put the URL in there...good. You were plagiarizing and got busted on it. Memory serves me right it was on the very thread on Fracking. Instead of posting your Epic there you chose to spill it out here because HD was using his sense of humor. See, he's funny....ha ha...you're not funny ha ha...you're actually pretty pathetic. Maybe there's some place where you can hone your chops and post with the Big Boys but your stay here has shown that this isn't the place for it. Why, you're a fish out of water....and you're starting to stink.



Your life must be really sad to be so consumed in obtaining satisfaction in projecting your anger on anyone you disagree with. While it was an interesting diversion for a time. The novelty of interacting with you has pretty much lost it's recreational value to me. Responding further to your bi-polar rage is a zero sum game or worse simply drags me into your morass of negativity. I'm not going to follow your guttersnipe act into your gutter. Have the last word. You work so hard at trying to piss higher on the posting wall here and it clearly means so much to you that it's the least I can do to make a little more bearable what must be a truly dysfunctional life controlled by your own inability to control your rage. I'll be scrolling past any further responses you might have without reading them so have at it and spew as much as you like if that floats your boat.

To be clear, I'm not going to stop posting here. I'm just not going to interact further with you, whether you choose to comment on any posts I make or not doesn't concern me. By all means have the last word. Life is too short to spend on things or people that don't improve one's life or self or at least provide some level of enjoyment.
HockeyDad Offline
#33 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,190
"Screw you guys, I'm going home" ~ Eric Cartman
Ragin' Cajun Offline
#34 Posted:
Joined: 07-20-2009
Posts: 835
PDX and DrMadd remind me of the Odd Couple....
yardobeef Offline
#35 Posted:
Joined: 10-25-2011
Posts: 849
Jump cut to both of them waking up in bed together.
ZRX1200 Offline
#36 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,661
Someone suffers from latent homoerotic fantasy.
pdxstogieman Offline
#37 Posted:
Joined: 10-04-2007
Posts: 5,219
HockeyDad wrote:
"Screw you guys, I'm going home" ~ Eric Cartman


HD I'm not going home and it isn't about "screw you guys" in the plural. I'm Just making a choice about a specific personal interaction dynamic that isn't good. You and I agree on some things and not others. I appreciate your wit even when I may be the target of it, and in a lot of cases I can certainly admit you've made a good point that's punctured an argument I've made, and in some cases you've influenced my viewpoints. At the end of the day, the overall vibe I get from your posts in general and responses to mine isn't negative or absent some humor or good will. The dynamic overall would probably be better with you and a couple of others if it weren't interspersed with the pervasive retorts of the extremely angry and vitriolic persona that I'm choosing to not interact with further. My first nature when confronted with someone who wants to be very angry/aggressive and spew venom is to be angry/aggressive right back (which is a weakness) and to not just back down in the face of resistance (which is a quality that's served me well in my career and personal life. Despite conjecture to the contrary here, I've been successful, at least to my own standards, in my career and my personal life, and my political outlook isn't driven by envy of anyone).

My decision in this case is to exercise some self awareness and stop the escalating spiral of crapola with that particular individual by not playing into it any further. Responding to that individual is like scratching an itch, it just makes it worse.
wheelrite Offline
#38 Posted:
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
pdxstogieman wrote:
HD I'm not going home and it isn't about "screw you guys" in the plural. I'm Just making a choice about a specific personal interaction dynamic that isn't good. You and I agree on some things and not others. I appreciate your wit even when I may be the target of it, and in a lot of cases I can certainly admit you've made a good point that's punctured an argument I've made, and in some cases you've influenced my viewpoints. At the end of the day, the overall vibe I get from your posts in general and responses to mine isn't negative or absent some humor or good will. The dynamic overall would probably be better with you and a couple of others if it weren't interspersed with the pervasive retorts of the extremely angry and vitriolic persona that I'm choosing to not interact with further. My first nature when confronted with someone who wants to be very angry/aggressive and spew venom is to be angry/aggressive right back (which is a weakness) and to not just back down in the face of resistance (which is a quality that's served me well in my career and personal life. Despite conjecture to the contrary here, I've been successful, at least to my own standards, in my career and my personal life, and my political outlook isn't driven by envy of anyone).

My decision in this case is to exercise some self awareness and stop the escalating spiral of crapola with that particular individual by not playing into it any further. Responding to that individual is like scratching an itch, it just makes it worse.



sniff
rfenst Offline
#39 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,424
Ragin' Cajun wrote:
PDX and DrMadd remind me of the Odd Couple....



Yeah, kind of like Wheel and Cousin Eddy.
wheelrite Offline
#40 Posted:
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
rfenst wrote:
Yeah, kind of like Wheel and Cousin Eddy.


who ?
rfenst Offline
#41 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,424
wheelrite wrote:
who ?


What, he dumped you?
ZRX1200 Offline
#42 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,661
I think when Cousin Eddies Vette got repoed he just left.....
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