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The Supreme Court and Obamacare,,, what will happen ?
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wheelrite Offline
#51 Posted: Tue, Mar 27 2012, 2:25 PM EST
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
teedubbya wrote:
I'm tellin ya, ruling that the right can trumpet, and will strike down parts but in reality the trojan horse isn't just in the building it is already wrapped around the willy and about ready to enter all holes (can't spell orafices). there are already large chunks in place.


without the Mandate it all falls apart..
teedubbya Offline
#52 Posted: Tue, Mar 27 2012, 2:27 PM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
LMAO

parts do. much does not. you are only seeing the tip of the iceburg. beleive what you want though if it makes you feel better. I'm only implementing this stuff.

While I'm sure the admin wants it all to hold up there are many that find it amusing that the mark (argument) has moved and much has already been implemented or is being implemented that is no longer under discussion. It is amazing how little people know about all this (it is complicated).

Politics wins the day. both bases will be energized.
rfenst Offline
#53 Posted: Tue, Mar 27 2012, 3:22 PM EST
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,424
wheelrite wrote:
Just wait...
all our small business deductions are going away too...


Perhaps.
But one thing is for sure, I am going to take every lawful deduction I can get- all the way to the bitter end!
rfenst Offline
#54 Posted: Tue, Mar 27 2012, 3:27 PM EST
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,424
wheelrite wrote:
Not looking good for Barry....
after 2 days od Oral Arguments



You been watching or listening directly? I cannot tell youth number of hearings and arguments I have participated and observed. Lawyers speculate all the time on what the ruling(s) will be. It's just a pass-time. In the end, we all agree that one can never know what the final Ruling or Opinion a judge or group of justices (or even a jury) will make.
FuzzNJ Offline
#55 Posted: Tue, Mar 27 2012, 3:31 PM EST
Joined: 06-28-2006
Posts: 13,000
rfenst wrote:
You been watching or listening directly? I cannot tell youth number of hearings and arguments I have participated and observed. Lawyers speculate all the time on what the ruling(s) will be. It's just a pass-time. In the end, we all agree that one can never know what the final Ruling or Opinion a judge or group of justices (or even a jury) will make.


Wheel is a constitutional scholar and knows what he's talking about.
wheelrite Offline
#56 Posted: Tue, Mar 27 2012, 3:32 PM EST
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
FuzzNJ wrote:
Wheel is a constitutional scholar and knows what he's talking about.


yes and you are a Chamber Maid !!!Beer
teedubbya Offline
#57 Posted: Tue, Mar 27 2012, 3:37 PM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
chamber maids are hot.
wheelrite Offline
#58 Posted: Tue, Mar 27 2012, 3:39 PM EST
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
teedubbya wrote:
chamber maids are hot.


So,,,
you're into Maids with testicles ?
WTH ?


freak,,,,,

Anxious
DrMaddVibe Offline
#59 Posted: Tue, Mar 27 2012, 3:43 PM EST
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,554
Snickerdoodles doesn't have testicles!
teedubbya Offline
#60 Posted: Tue, Mar 27 2012, 3:51 PM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
wheelrite wrote:
So,,,
you're into Maids with testicles ?
WTH ?


freak,,,,,

Anxious



the beans wouldn't bother me much its the frank that gets in the way.
teedubbya Offline
#61 Posted: Tue, Mar 27 2012, 4:12 PM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
just to put things into perspective, if the supremes knock down the commerce peice (mandate) it would certainly remove or change a large chunk of things but much will remain that is already in place or close to it. That said, it could be less than what the socialist GWB managed to get through and make stick. Part D is amazing in its scope.
wheelrite Offline
#62 Posted: Tue, Mar 27 2012, 4:14 PM EST
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
teedubbya wrote:
just to put things into perspective, if the supremes knock down the commerce peice (mandate) it would certainly remove or change a large chunk of things but much will remain that is already in place or close to it. That said, it could be less than what the socialist GWB managed to get through and make stick. Part D is amazing in its scope.



D is a nice cup size...
teedubbya Offline
#63 Posted: Tue, Mar 27 2012, 4:15 PM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
you wear a dwarfs cup?
FuzzNJ Offline
#64 Posted: Tue, Mar 27 2012, 4:27 PM EST
Joined: 06-28-2006
Posts: 13,000
teedubbya wrote:
just to put things into perspective, if the supremes knock down the commerce peice (mandate) it would certainly remove or change a large chunk of things but much will remain that is already in place or close to it. That said, it could be less than what the socialist GWB managed to get through and make stick. Part D is amazing in its scope.


Funny thing is Romney, Newt and Ricky all voted for part D and Romney implimented the 'mandate' in MA based on a Republican idea. Now it's apparently a communist idea.
wheelrite Offline
#65 Posted: Tue, Mar 27 2012, 4:28 PM EST
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
teedubbya wrote:
you wear a dwarfs cup?


I don't even know what that is
teedubbya Offline
#66 Posted: Tue, Mar 27 2012, 4:40 PM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
cool. those around you must love you to keep you in the dark
ZRX1200 Offline
#67 Posted: Tue, Mar 27 2012, 5:07 PM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,661
Santorum voted for part D.

Teedubbya agree about the socialist 43 and the Kenyan is cut from the same jib.

Fuzzy, Mittens defense is that it was a State mandate and that the feds don't have that same power. Your hypocrite outrage will fall on deaf ears when the 10th amendment comes into play. And the feds have gang banged the commerce clause to fit their power grab.
FuzzNJ Offline
#68 Posted: Tue, Mar 27 2012, 5:40 PM EST
Joined: 06-28-2006
Posts: 13,000
I was wondering who the guy was that fell for that state government is less 'oppressive' than the federal government argument for doing the same thing argument.
ZRX1200 Offline
#69 Posted: Tue, Mar 27 2012, 5:51 PM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,661
I worked for a summer carrying hod. So I'm used to you.
teedubbya Offline
#70 Posted: Wed, Mar 28 2012, 11:48 AM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
"There are so many things in the act," said Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, including many provisions not directly related to market reforms such as Native American health care. "Why make Congress redo that? Who should we stop and start from scratch?"

Added Justice Elena Kagan. "Half a loaf is better than no loaf," meaning some provisions would survive.

And the court appeared in no mood to pick and choose.

"You want us to go through 2,700 pages" of the law, asked Justice Antonin Scalia. "Is this not totally unrealistic ... to go through one by one and decide each one?"

Justice Anthony Kennedy said he was reluctant to take on this "awesome exercise of judicial power," at the expense of congressional discretion.



its gonna be a win win for the politicians. the right can declare victory if the commerce provision is killed, the left still will have half or more of the changes in tact (many already implemented) and can place blame on the republicans for not having more (and for prices rising as a result of the healthy not being totally in the pool). It's a lose lose for most of us but wth.

If they strike down the medicaid peice they are hearing today it would have a ripple effect on virtually every fed program including transportation (not a bad thing in my opinion).

strap in and enjoy the ride.
Gene363 Offline
#71 Posted: Wed, Mar 28 2012, 5:16 PM EST
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,869
On the way home I heard the Brian Lehrer Show and guest Richard Epstein comment on the court case so far and explain Obamacare in detail. Epstein is a professor of law at NYU and senior fellow at the Hoover Institution. This is a very liberal talk show and the host was rather dismissive of any arguments against the law. The good professor is very articulate and makes some very good arguments.


You can listen to it here: http://www.wnyc.org/people/richard-epstein/
itsawaldo Offline
#72 Posted: Wed, Mar 28 2012, 11:45 PM EST
Joined: 09-10-2006
Posts: 4,221
Obamacare sounds so good until you peal back a layer or two.

For me it sucks, I have always had a job that has had HC with a shared cost by my employer or I was fortunate enough to be able to buy it.

My premiums and perscription co-pays are up LOTS over the last couple of years. Thats okay by me as I still have great healthcare, I invested in my education, moved up in my career, i EARNED my "right" to healthcare.

Taxes in Illinois are up, Fed taxes are going up and in Obamacare the states have to raise taxes to pay for more people to be on Medicaid. Illinois is broke (and crooked), how much can I give and still be a cigar smoking gentleman?

CBO says the costs are MUCH higher then projected? Come on Libs, this plan sucks.

Get a budget.
Get spending under control.
Rein in fraud in Welfare, Medicaid, SS and related programs.
Open up insurance companies to sell interstate insead of only intrastate.
Come up with a Tax code for all of us.

THEN lets look at creating an insurance pool for those that need it. Better yet scrap the entire plan and just make up a plan for the welfare generation or two and have them all pay into their own plan and leave mine alone!
DrMaddVibe Offline
#73 Posted: Thu, Mar 29 2012, 6:54 AM EST
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,554
itsawaldo wrote:
Obamacare sounds so good until you peal back a layer or two.

For me it sucks, I have always had a job that has had HC with a shared cost by my employer or I was fortunate enough to be able to buy it.

My premiums and perscription co-pays are up LOTS over the last couple of years. Thats okay by me as I still have great healthcare, I invested in my education, moved up in my career, i EARNED my "right" to healthcare.

Taxes in Illinois are up, Fed taxes are going up and in Obamacare the states have to raise taxes to pay for more people to be on Medicaid. Illinois is broke (and crooked), how much can I give and still be a cigar smoking gentleman?

CBO says the costs are MUCH higher then projected? Come on Libs, this plan sucks.

Get a budget.
Get spending under control.
Rein in fraud in Welfare, Medicaid, SS and related programs.
Open up insurance companies to sell interstate insead of only intrastate.
Come up with a Tax code for all of us.

THEN lets look at creating an insurance pool for those that need it. Better yet scrap the entire plan and just make up a plan for the welfare generation or two and have them all pay into their own plan and leave mine alone!




Applause

Yes!

Making plans affordable could be done by stripping the intrastate laws that bind the insurance companies. If they can afford to cover a guy the same age/risk group and family members with the same for one amount in one state...why isn't true throughout all of them? Could've changed THAT law and been done with it. Make it criminal to pop into a ER if you're an illegal alien would reduce the clog in the triage AND reduce the costs too! A lot of this is really common sense, but instead of one page bills we were faced with this bloated Trotskyesque fairy tale that delivers everything and well is spiraling out of control under the weight of it's own budget that your kids will be paying on and generations after too!
tailgater Offline
#74 Posted: Fri, Mar 30 2012, 8:07 AM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
This thread is a perfect example of HOW Obamacare got passed in our legislature.
Our current health insurance system is broken.
And for lack of anything tangible to take its place, we opt for a government solution.

Truth is, it will make matters worse with only an appearance of helping the little guy.

Honestly.
With a show of hands, who here truly believes that the solution to any major problem can be best served by creating a new law that allows the feds to force you to purchase something?

I've read and heard hundreds of legitimate reasons to NOT pass Obamacare.
The only reason I've heard in support of it sounds like "well, the current system stinks and you already pay for the under-insured."
This "logic" is in fact true. But irrelevant.
Just because something is broke doesn't mean the government needs to fix it by owning it.

Let's keep the discussion points separate.

On one hand, we can discuss whether Obamacare is the best solution.

On the other hand, and more to the point of this thread, we can discuss whether Obamacare is unconstitutional.
teedubbya Offline
#75 Posted: Fri, Mar 30 2012, 11:25 AM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
"Making plans affordable could be done by stripping the intrastate laws that bind the insurance companies. "

Nope. Not in total. But it would have been a start. Drop in the bucket but you have to start somewhere. But it would not have made things affordable.

Iffin you are going to go a private insurance model (or you could argue most other models) you do need to spread risk which means some sort of pool that includes high and low cost users.

I get not wanting to buy insurance when you are young. When I was younger I played the odds too.

it all boils down to individualism vs. collectivism, the good of the individual vs. the good of the many, or public health vs. personal health. We value individualism more than most societies (thank god...me to) which makes this health care debate so complicated for us vs. other countries. It is also what makes us better than them. Complicated can be a good thing.

Most of the simple sounding solutions thrown out as soundbites may have merit as a small peice of the puzzle but are not solutions in themselves. I'm an incrementalist. I think we should keep tinkering around the edges fine tuning things (and would supprt DMVs suggestion as part of that.). Make a change or two, assess, make more or tweek what you did and keep doing that. I'm not for wholesale change. Then again I'm a continuous improvement person. If you have to scrap everything you do but often you can just keep making things better. The realist in me says our current political climate will now allow for any rational process of incremental change therefor whichever party that can will do something rash or stupid in the small window they get. Our politics are toxic and that is even reflected in here.

Meh.

Either that or we could do away with insurance all together and just trade three chickens and a pig for wheel's leg lengthening operation.
cacman Offline
#76 Posted: Fri, Mar 30 2012, 11:44 PM EST
Joined: 07-03-2010
Posts: 12,216
In a nutshell... you should have a CHOICE.
Healthcare is a privilege not a right. Going to a doctor is a privilege just as it is to walk into the grocery store to buy food. The same example being used with auto insurance. Driving a vehicle is a privilege. If you CHOOSE to drive then you are required to buy minimal insurance from one of numerous (including online) providers offering a variety of pricing options. I moved. My auto insurance didn't offer coverage in the state I moved to. With HELP from the company we switched to a different company. No problem. Not so with health insurance. Our BC&BS policy doubled in a single month. The price was enormous and because we "cancelled" it caused all other providers to offer an escalated rate. There was no help with switching to a cheaper plan or different company.

We CHOSE to do without health coverage, save the money spent on insurance each month, and pay out-of-pocket. We're able to negotiate at least a 20% discount or more because no one has to fill-out all the insurance paperwork or wait for the funds to be received. We pay our bills, not receiving anything for free, and not a "burden" on those who CHOOSE to pay medical insurance. And now because I made this choice I am going to be fined or taxed. F*ck you I'm not paying it. What's next... I'm going to be fined or taxed if I don't spend a certain amount on food or gas? Am I going to be required to buy life insurance too? When did I join a country club where required spending is required?

A quick way to start curbing healthcare cost and insurance is to quit giving it away free to people that don't belong here. And make our prezident, politicians, and lawmakers purchase the same healthcare insurance we do. Make the insurance affordable and I'll buy it.

Making everyone "buy insurance" will only drive costs up. It's like throwing lambs to the wolves... like giving the keys to the bank to the robbers. Oh wait... they did that already. Can I charge the tax to a BoA credit card???

Just my 2¢.
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