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Last post 11 years ago by ZRX1200. 45 replies replies.
Indefinate military detention bill passes on Bill of Rights Day!
ZRX1200 Offline
#1 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,682
And Barry loves it!

WASHINGTON -- The Senate passed a defense bill Thursday that authorizes indefinite detentions of American terrorism suspects,coincidentally acting on the controversial measure on the 220th anniversary of the ratification of the Bill of Rights.

The bill,the National Defense Authorization Act,passed 86 to 13 and is expected to be signed quickly by President Obama,who withdrew a veto threat against the bill Wednesday. Six Democrats,sixRepublicans and one independent opposed the bill.

Though the legislation passed overwhelmingly,several senators argued that it was threatening fundamental provisions of the Bill of Rights,which is celebrated every Dec. 15.

"We as Americans have a right to a speedy trial,not indefinite detention," said Sen. Mark Kirk (R-Ill.). "We as Americans have a right to a jury of our peers,which I would argue is ... not enlisted or military personnel sitting in a jury. You cannot search our businesses or place of business or our homes without probable cause under the Bill of Rights."

"You cannot be deprived of your freedom or your property without due process of law,and that,I would say,is not indefinite detention," added Kirk,who voted for the bill. "I would actually argue that no statute and no Senate and no House can take these rights away from you."

The 13 senators who voted against the bill were ****** Durbin (D-Ill.),Ben Cardin (D-Md.),Al Franken (D-Minn.),Tom Harkin (D-Iowa),Jeff Merkley (D-Ore.),Ron Wyden (D-Ore.),Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.), Jim Risch (R-Idaho),Rand Paul (R-Ky.), Mike Lee (R-Utah),Jim DeMint (R-S.C.), Mike Crapo (R-Idaho) and Tom Coburn (R-Okla.).

Supporters of the bill argued that current U.S. law is a combination of rulings and precedents that already allow indefinite detention of Americans. But they say that granting the military explicit authority to investigate and detain terrorism suspects -- including Americans -- is vital to ensuring the nation can keep up with an adaptable and changing enemy threat.

They point to court rulings that have found detentions of citizens to be proper. But opponents say the issue of grabbing up Americans on U.S. soil and putting them in military detention without trial has never actually been tested by the Supreme Court.

"This provision would for the first time in American history require our military to take custody of certain terrorism suspects in the United States," said Durbin,who was especially concerned with two sections of the bill -- 1021 and 1022 --and voted "no."

He argued -- citing FBI Director Robert Mueller's opposition to the provisions --that there was no reason to mess with a system that has worked well since Sept. 11,2001.

"Since 9/11 our counterterrorism professionals have prevented another attack on the United States,and more than 400 terrorists have successfully been prosecuted and convicted -- prosecuted and convicted -- in federal court," Durbin said. "Why do we want to change this system when it's working so well to keep America safe? The fact that these detainee provisions have caused so many disagreements and such heated debate demonstrates the danger of enacting them into law."

Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.),who added an amendment to the bill that specifies the resulting measure would not affect current law regarding citizens, argued that her provision provides protection for Americans.

Nevertheless,in voting for the bill,she also proposed a new bill that she,Durbin, Kirk and others intend to pursue later in hopes of making her interpretation the law.

"I strongly believe that constitutional due process requires that United States citizens apprehended in the United States should never be held in indefinite detention," Feinstein said. "That is what this legislation would accomplish."

Feinstein offered a similar amendment during earlier debate over the $662 billion defense bill,and it failed. It was not clear that this measure would do any better,although she noted that it built on a law signed in 1971 by President Nixon meant to curb abuses such as the internment of Japanese Americans in World War II.

The bill requires military treatment for foreign terrorism suspects. Defenders of the bill have pointed to one part of the provisions that say U.S. citizens are "exempted" from the requirement to be detained by the military,but legal scholars note that even though that detention is not required,it is allowed.

President Obama had threatened to veto the measure. But after provisions were added that gave him the final say over which suspects stay in military custody,he relented. Those provisions also ensured that the FBI and other law enforcement agencies would still be permitted to investigate and interrogate terrorist suspects. Mueller has called the provisions insufficient,warning that they will create bureaucratic roadblocks in the midst of vital investigations.

Obama could sign sign the bill as soon as Friday.

Civil liberties groups were infuriated that Obama retreated from the veto threat, and called on him to reconsider.

"The NDAA enshrines the war paradigm that has eroded the United States' human rights record and served it so poorly over the past decade as the country's primary counterterrorism tool," said Tom Parker, policy director of Amnesty International USA. "In doing so,the NDAA provides a framework for 'normalizing' indefinite detention and making Guantanamo a permanent feature of American life," he said,referring to a restriction in the measure on closing the Cuba prison for terror suspects.

"By withdrawing his threat to veto the NDAA,President Obama has abandoned yet another principled position with little or nothing to show for it," Parker said. "Amnesty International is appalled -- but regrettably not surprised."

Michael McAuliff covers politics and Congress for the Huffington Post. Talk to him on Facebook.

CORRECTION: This article originally stated that Ben Cardin is a senator from Delaware. It has been fixed to reflect that he is in fact a senator from Maryland.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#2 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,633
I've already called top bunk!

horse
HockeyDad Offline
#3 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,213
Freedom isn't free.
itsawaldo Offline
#4 Posted:
Joined: 09-10-2006
Posts: 4,221
This is going to evolve into a middle class retirement plan, sign me up in another 15 years.
Three hots and a cot and might be safer then general population in state prison I'd get for robbing a bank to ensure my retirement.
DrafterX Offline
#5 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,601
Indefinate OUTRAGE..!!! ram27bat
DrafterX Offline
#6 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,601
DrMaddVibe wrote:
I've already called top bunk!

horse



no bunks... just walls and chains... and mean war puppy-dogs... Mellow
borndead1 Offline
#7 Posted:
Joined: 11-07-2006
Posts: 5,216
The 13 senators who voted against the bill were ****** Durbin (D-Ill.),Ben Cardin (D-Md.),Al Franken (D-Minn.),Tom Harkin (D-Iowa),Jeff Merkley (D-Ore.),Ron Wyden (D-Ore.),Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.), Jim Risch (R-Idaho),Rand Paul (R-Ky.), Mike Lee (R-Utah),Jim DeMint (R-S.C.), Mike Crapo (R-Idaho) and Tom Coburn (R-Okla.).


These people need to be re-elected, regardless of whether they have a D or R next to their name.
ZRX1200 Offline
#8 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,682
Im happy my two senators did the right thing. Unfortunately this is one of the few issues that they don't like handing over the state to the fed.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#9 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,633
How in the world they think THIS is a good idea is beyond me!

ram27bat
ZRX1200 Offline
#10 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,682
More federal power.......
rfenst Offline
#11 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,473
I would like to see the current case law that is being claimed to being codified into stautory law.

This one will go up to SCOTUS. The onlyy question is how fast. Outcome could depend in part what SCOTUS precedent and if Scalia writes the opinion, just how much he can twist things around to accomplish a desired goal. Only question is how to get it moving fast-track...
ZRX1200 Offline
#12 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,682
Robert from what I heard last night they cited that they already had all this power from legal precedence. Feinstien amendment allegedly made this o.k to legal challenge.

HockeyDad Offline
#13 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,213
rfenst wrote:
I would like to see the current case law that is being claimed to being codified into stautory law.

This one will go up to SCOTUS. The onlyy question is how fast. Outcome could depend in part what SCOTUS precedent and if Scalia writes the opinion, just how much he can twist things around to accomplish a desired goal. Only question is how to get it moving fast-track...



Technically the SCOTUS could now be thrown into military prison and held indefinitely!
DrMaddVibe Offline
#14 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,633
I hear it's really nice this time of season at GitmoThink
DadZilla3 Offline
#15 Posted:
Joined: 01-17-2009
Posts: 4,633
All we need now is for the Reichstag building to catch fire...
chiefburg Offline
#16 Posted:
Joined: 01-31-2005
Posts: 7,384
Hold the phone there Bucko.......didn't Obama base part of his campaign in opposition to this????? The Washington koolaid must be really potent.......
ZRX1200 Offline
#17 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,682
He threatened to veto this until the language was changed to give executive control over WHO gets detained..........


That make you feel better?!
chiefburg Offline
#18 Posted:
Joined: 01-31-2005
Posts: 7,384
He sold out on another promise......I feel so dirty, oh so dirty.....
ZRX1200 Offline
#19 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,682
I was holding my breath too!
DrafterX Offline
#20 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,601
chiefburg wrote:
Hold the phone there Bucko.......didn't Obama base part of his campaign in opposition to this????? The Washington koolaid must be really potent.......



he was just kiddin.... Mellow
yardobeef Offline
#21 Posted:
Joined: 10-25-2011
Posts: 849
I'm confused. Who's the winner in all of this??? The man?
ZRX1200 Offline
#22 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,682
Scared DC politicians now have a mechanism to control uprisings.
rfenst Offline
#23 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,473
borndead1 wrote:
The 13 senators who voted against the bill were ****** Durbin (D-Ill.),Ben Cardin (D-Md.),Al Franken (D-Minn.),Tom Harkin (D-Iowa),Jeff Merkley (D-Ore.),Ron Wyden (D-Ore.),Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.), Jim Risch (R-Idaho),Rand Paul (R-Ky.), Mike Lee (R-Utah),Jim DeMint (R-S.C.), Mike Crapo (R-Idaho) and Tom Coburn (R-Okla.).


These people need to be re-elected, regardless of whether they have a D or R next to their name.



Even Al Franken (D-Minn)?
rfenst Offline
#24 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,473
ZRX1200 wrote:
Robert from what I heard last night they cited that they already had all this power from legal precedence. Feinstien amendment allegedly made this o.k to legal challenge.



Case law codification law is not uncommon, but it is almost always used to "overturn" court interpretations and decisions.

Look, I still don't know what was in the bills- the in the original post isn't of substance (no offense)- but I cannot stand this historical crap of attaching unrelated matters to important bills so they can't or don't get vetoed. Too bad there isn't line-item or issue veto power of some sort.
rfenst Offline
#25 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,473
ZRX1200 wrote:
Robert from what I heard last night they cited that they already had all this power from legal precedence. Feinstien amendment allegedly made this o.k to legal challenge.



Case law codification law is not uncommon, but it is almost always used to "overturn" court interpretations and decisions.

Look, I still don't know what exactly was in the bill yet- the original post isn't of such substance (no offense)- but I cannot stand this age-old, historical crap of attaching unrelated matters to important bills so they can't or don't get vetoed. Too bad there isn't line-item or multiple-issue veto power of some sort. Gotta figure out some way to get this within the SCOTUS' original jurisdiction or up on a writ of certiorari ASAP.
rfenst Offline
#26 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,473
HockeyDad wrote:
Technically the SCOTUS could now be thrown into military prison and held indefinitely!



Posse comitatus?
wheelrite Offline
#27 Posted:
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
rfenst wrote:
Posse comitatus?



I love a shaved Posse...
borndead1 Offline
#28 Posted:
Joined: 11-07-2006
Posts: 5,216
rfenst wrote:
Even Al Franken (D-Minn)?



Yes. Although I disagree with Franken on his economic views and certain social issues, these (economic and social) things will always go back and forth depending on who holds a majority in the legislature. Without this push and pull back and forth, America would not exist. But there are certain core principles that should never be compromised, and the small number of senators on that list of "nays" understand that. They get it. Although Franken and I disagree about certain things government should do, we can agree on the really big things that government should never do.
ZRX1200 Offline
#29 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,682
Robert it was a cut and paste from Huffington Post.
pdxstogieman Offline
#30 Posted:
Joined: 10-04-2007
Posts: 5,219
Under Bush Cheneyburton you guys thought this kind of **** was ok. "If you're not doing anything wrong you have nothing to worry about".

I didn't like it then and don't now. Flippity flip floppers.
frankj1 Offline
#31 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,290
borndead1 wrote:
Yes. Although I disagree with Franken on his economic views and certain social issues, these (economic and social) things will always go back and forth depending on who holds a majority in the legislature. Without this push and pull back and forth, America would not exist. But there are certain core principles that should never be compromised, and the small number of senators on that list of "nays" understand that. They get it. Although Franken and I disagree about certain things government should do, we can agree on the really big things that government should never do.

The perfect understanding, sir. And stated perfectly too. Thanks.

Hey, Bernie is able to understand this too!
HockeyDad Offline
#32 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,213
pdxstogieman wrote:
Under Bush Cheneyburton you guys thought this kind of **** was ok. "If you're not doing anything wrong you have nothing to worry about".

I didn't like it then and don't now. Flippity flip floppers.



From your member date, you weren't even around here for most of the Bush/Cheney years so your "you guys" assertion is a load of crap.
pdxstogieman Offline
#33 Posted:
Joined: 10-04-2007
Posts: 5,219
HockeyDad wrote:
From your member date, you weren't even around here for most of the Bush/Cheney years so your "you guys" assertion is a load of crap.


There have been plenty of threads here since I joined in which righties have asserted well after events that the Patriot Act and various other infringements on rights that were enacted during the Bush administration were fine and dandy and necessary to national security.

So my assertion, is perfectly valid.
ZRX1200 Offline
#34 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,682
Hypocritical situational OUTRAGE!

Haha!
HockeyDad Offline
#35 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,213
pdxstogieman wrote:
There have been plenty of threads here since I joined in which righties have asserted well after events that the Patriot Act and various other infringements on rights that were enacted during the Bush administration were fine and dandy and necessary to national security.

So my assertion, is perfectly valid.



There were also plenty of threads in which righties and lefties asserted that the Patriot Act was a load of crap. Your assertion is only valid if the people you are addressing now are the same "you guys" from before that liked the Patriot Act.

All righties are not lock-step the same just as all lefties are not douchebags.

Now what is a known fact is that the Patriot Act was perfectly fine to George W Bush and is perfectly fine to Barack Obama.
ZRX1200 Offline
#36 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,682
Barry loves him some centralized federal powers!
pdxstogieman Offline
#37 Posted:
Joined: 10-04-2007
Posts: 5,219
HockeyDad wrote:
There were also plenty of threads in which righties and lefties asserted that the Patriot Act was a load of crap. Your assertion is only valid if the people you are addressing now are the same "you guys" from before that liked the Patriot Act.

All righties are not lock-step the same just as all lefties are not douchebags.

Now what is a known fact is that the Patriot Act was perfectly fine to George W Bush and is perfectly fine to Barack Obama.



The people I was addressing are the same ones who liked the patriot act and other infringements on individual rights in the name of national security under Bush but not under Obama. I don't like the provision for military detention of citizens under Obama and wouldn't like it regardless of what party is in power.

Would it also hold true that all lefties are not lock step the same just as all righties are not douchebags? Is it worse to be lockstep or a douchebag or do you consider those terms to carry equivalently negative connotation?
ZRX1200 Offline
#38 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,682
I think they're both sheep.

But im a prick.
HockeyDad Offline
#39 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,213
pdxstogieman wrote:
The people I was addressing are the same ones who liked the patriot act and other infringements on individual rights in the name of national security under Bush but not under Obama. I don't like the provision for military detention of citizens under Obama and wouldn't like it regardless of what party is in power.



Nope, that doesn't work. The Patriot Act passed 6 years before you even joined here. You have no clue who took what side back then. I will note this transgression in your file for when you are interned in a re-education camp.
Lancaster6802 Offline
#40 Posted:
Joined: 10-20-2011
Posts: 7,255
DrafterX wrote:
Indefinate OUTRAGE..!!! ram27bat


^^^^^ yea what he said
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#41 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
SO MUCH FOR THE GREAT EXPERIMENT.
pdxstogieman Offline
#42 Posted:
Joined: 10-04-2007
Posts: 5,219
ZRX1200 wrote:
I think they're both sheep.

But im a prick.


Self awareness is over-rated
ZRX1200 Offline
#43 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,682
http://m.examiner.com/human-rights-in-national/ndaa-dictatorship-is-for-silencing-opposition-to-criminal-u-s-leaders?CID=examiner_alerts_article
Humastronaut Offline
#44 Posted:
Joined: 07-26-2011
Posts: 231
borndead1 wrote:
The 13 senators who voted against the bill were ****** Durbin (D-Ill.),Ben Cardin (D-Md.),Al Franken (D-Minn.),Tom Harkin (D-Iowa),Jeff Merkley (D-Ore.),Ron Wyden (D-Ore.),Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.), Jim Risch (R-Idaho),Rand Paul (R-Ky.), Mike Lee (R-Utah),Jim DeMint (R-S.C.), Mike Crapo (R-Idaho) and Tom Coburn (R-Okla.).


These people need to be re-elected, regardless of whether they have a D or R next to their name.



Hum from Il here checking in....****** Durbin most definitely doe NOT need to be re-elected!Brick wall
ZRX1200 Offline
#45 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,682
Victor.......
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