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Last post 11 years ago by rfenst. 28 replies replies.
What's it feel like when your vote doesn't count?
rfenst Offline
#1 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,461
Me? My vote could really count more than others'!

I live in Florida- one of the major states "in play" that will make or break this election. Every single vote for each candidate means alot on the Eelectoral "score card". Remember how Bush/Gore pretty much came down to a mere 600 or so votes in Florida- and the entire election would have gone to Gore? That's how much my single vote could count.

But, what about those of you who live in states that heavily favor one candidate or party over the other. Whether or not you vote, your state's final outcome will be the same. Now, I am not suggesting that anyone not vote, but what if you KNOW your candidate will definitely win or loose your state with or without your vote? How does that make you feel?

Of course our brand of Federalism is the basic formula that our country was founded on. A confederation of states, if you will, with each state (not its voters) choosing the President through the Electoral College.

And, (other than Dred Scot v. Sandford what about the egalitarian concept of "one man-one vote"? There is always debate about the sanctity of the Electoral College and I welcome that as part of this thread, but please begin by answering what it would feel to you if your vote was essentially meaningless?
BuckyB93 Offline
#2 Posted:
Joined: 07-16-2004
Posts: 14,243
I vote at every election and my vote really only counts in close local elections. I live in MA which is overwhelmingly D territory. If I vote D, I'm just one drop in a sea of D's. If I vote R, or Ind, or anything else, I'm only one drop against a sea of D's.

Although my vote doesn't really matter in the bigger campaigns, I still vote.
hoyodude Offline
#3 Posted:
Joined: 07-17-2000
Posts: 4,395
Speaking as someone living in one of the states where my vote counts the least, this is exactly why I feel the electoral college rips the people off, Robert. Regardless of whether I was happy with the winner or not, if we had popular vote in this country ( wouldn't that be a REAL democracy?) I believe the people would be much less contentious about election results. Seems obvious to me. I could be wrong.

To answer your question I am NOT happy that my vote will be in concert with the EC so, therefore, does not count. It DOES make me wonder why I take part in such a broken system.

...but, still, I vote. What else can I do? I guess it's useless to have an opinion in NY politics but I do anyway.

Here's something from Bloomberg BusinessWeek -

"It's a terrible system; it's the most undemocratic way of electing a chief executive in the world, " said Paul Finkelman, a law professor at Albany Law School who teaches this year at Duke University. "There's no other electoral system in the world where the person with the most votes doesn't win."

....this is democracy? How did we let this happen?
dpnewell Offline
#4 Posted:
Joined: 03-16-2009
Posts: 7,491
hoyodude wrote:
Speaking as someone living in one of the states where my vote counts the least, this is exactly why I feel the electoral college rips the people off, Robert. Regardless of whether I was happy with the winner or not, if we had popular vote in this country ( wouldn't that be a REAL democracy?) I believe the people would be much less contentious about election results. Seems obvious to me. I could be wrong.

To answer your question I am NOT happy that my vote will be in concert with the EC so, therefore, does not count. It DOES make me wonder why I take part in such a broken system.

...but, still, I vote. What else can I do? I guess it's useless to have an opinion in NY politics but I do anyway.

Here's something from Bloomberg BusinessWeek -

"It's a terrible system; it's the most undemocratic way of electing a chief executive in the world, " said Paul Finkelman, a law professor at Albany Law School who teaches this year at Duke University. "There's no other electoral system in the world where the person with the most votes doesn't win."

....this is democracy? How did we let this happen?


News flash. Our form of government is a "Representative Republic". It is NOT a Democracy.

In a Democracy, 51% of the people can vote to oppress, enslave, or even exterminate the other 49%. Ideally, in a true Representative Republic, the rights of the minority are protected. Our Founding Fathers knew this, and therefore decided against a Democracy, something many elected officials seem to be clueless to. I mean, how many times have you heard some brain dead Congressman or even President talk about our “Democracy”? Idiots need a civic lesson before they’re allowed to serve (silly me, I mean before they're allowed to rape and pillage the rest of us).
z6joker9 Offline
#5 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2011
Posts: 5,902
DP nailed it- we are a republic. We specifically chose not to be a democracy to prevent "mob rule".

Everyone talking about votes not counting don't understand the system.
rfenst Offline
#6 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,461
dpnewell wrote:
News flash. Our form of government is a "Representative Republic". It is NOT a Democracy.

In a Democracy, 51% of the people can vote to oppress, enslave, or even exterminate the other 49%. Ideally, in a true Representative Republic, the rights of the minority are protected. Our Founding Fathers knew this, and therefore decided against a Democracy, something many elected officials seem to be clueless to. I mean, how many times have you heard some brain dead Congressman or even President talk about our “Democracy”? Idiots need a civic lesson before they’re allowed to serve (silly me, I mean before they're allowed to rape and pillage the rest of us).



Perhaps you are getting too critical with the definitions of "democracy" and "representative republic" for the conversation, unless Hoyo is on board with your definitions. As to a representative republic, I don't think that the rights of the minority are any safer because we are a "representative" as opposed to "direct" democracy. The represented majority can do the exact same things at will. Take a look at the civil rights era when the representative majority oppressed the black Americans; the women's' sufferage movement when the representatvive majority made sure women weren't allowed to vote; the early founding years of our country when one had to be a white, male land-owner to vote; etc, etc. What ever you want to call what we have, whether in strict political science terms or common parlence, don't think there is any guaraantyor even assurance of inherent minority rights as a result of the political system we have devised and live in. It's a hell of a lot more here that gives minority rights.
z6joker9 Offline
#7 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2011
Posts: 5,902
rfenst wrote:
Perhaps you are getting too critical with the definitions of "democracy" and "representative republic" for the conversation, unless Hoyo is on board with your definitions. As to a representative republic, I don't think that the rights of the minority are any safer because we are a "representative" as opposed to "direct" democracy. The represented majority can do the exact same things at will. Take a look at the civil rights era when the representative majority oppressed the black Americans; the women's' sufferage movement when the representatvive majority made sure women weren't allowed to vote; the early founding years of our country when one had to be a white, male land-owner to vote; etc, etc. What ever you want to call what we have, whether in strict political science terms or common parlence, don't think there is any guaraantyor even assurance of inherent minority rights as a result of the political system we have devised and live in. It's a hell of a lot more here that gives minority rights.


Oh, that gets tricky, especially considering that the rights of the minorities have been winning out against the will of the majority under the republic. You could argue that a democracy (by definition) would have trended this way also, but how can we prove it, and at what rate would it have happened?

Either way, the definition of minority in dp's argument probably isn't the same definition of minority in the modern sense, but rather, the group of voters whose opinions are in the minority. A republic can help defend those, even if in retrospect, they are not moral (white slave owners, for instance). This is probably a bad example of why a republic is better of course, as it allowed one minority group to infringe on the human rights of another, but I wanted to clarify the distinction.
snowwolf777 Offline
#8 Posted:
Joined: 06-03-2000
Posts: 4,082
z6joker9 wrote:
Oh, that gets tricky, especially considering that the rights of the minorities have been winning out against the will of the majority under the republic. You could argue that a democracy (by definition) would have trended this way also, but how can we prove it, and at what rate would it have happened?



Z - Not everything gets washed through the "representative republic" cycle and put away. Some of it happens at state and local levels, where we get different outcomes thorughout the land.

Even when it does through the repsentative republic process,when the above-stated folks don't like the outcome, they turn the dial to the activist courts/judges setting.

snowwolf777 Offline
#9 Posted:
Joined: 06-03-2000
Posts: 4,082
Getting back to the OP's thread, I'm in Michigan. I know it'll swing D every presidential election, but I still have a positive effect on House, Senate, govenor and local elections.
dpnewell Offline
#10 Posted:
Joined: 03-16-2009
Posts: 7,491
Joker, thank you for clarifying my position.

Robert, I never said that in this country’s history, there have not been numerous miscarriages of justice. Things have happened, and oppression has been permitted, that under an “ideal” Representative Republic should never have been allowed. All human government is flawed. Greed and power corrupts, but our form of government has the best checks and balances against such corruption. As Joker said, in a Democracy, mob rules. In a pure Democracy, if 51% of the citizens wanted to strip the rights of the other 49%, they could do so. If one day, 51% should decide that all those of Jewish, or Irish or German decent should have their citizenship revoked and deported, it could be done, as that’s what the majority desires. Our form of government was designed to prevent such behavior. As it has been said, Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for dinner. In a Republic, a guard dog (the rule of law) is standing over the lamb. Again, our Republic is greatly flawed, but even with it’s flaws, it is still far better then a pure Democracy.
Gene363 Offline
#11 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,881

Our current system sucks, however, the alternative is election by the audience of the Oprah and Jerry Springer shows. Thanks, I stick with the Constitution.
dpnewell Offline
#12 Posted:
Joined: 03-16-2009
Posts: 7,491
Now back to the OP. When it comes to Presidential elections, Jersey is solidly Democrat. That's why I don't feel like I'm throwing my vote away voting Libertarian since '96, and I always have the hope that we can finally break through and elect a Libertarian on the local level.

When I finally switch my residency to NC, I may have to rethink how I vote in Presidential elections, as in that state, my vote may be as important as yours seems to be in Florida.
rfenst Offline
#13 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,461
dpnewell wrote:
Now back to the OP. When it comes to Presidential elections, Jersey is solidly Democrat. That's why I don't feel like I'm throwing my vote away voting Libertarian since '96, and I always have the hope that we can finally break through and elect a Libertarian on the local level.

When I finally switch my residency to NC, I may have to rethink how I vote in Presidential elections, as in that state, my vote may be as important as yours seems to be in Florida.


I think that my vote could count more than yours shameful.
BuckyB93 Offline
#14 Posted:
Joined: 07-16-2004
Posts: 14,243
dpnewell wrote:
Now back to the OP. When it comes to Presidential elections, Jersey is solidly Democrat. That's why I don't feel like I'm throwing my vote away voting Libertarian since '96, and I always have the hope that we can finally break through and elect a Libertarian on the local level.

When I finally switch my residency to NC, I may have to rethink how I vote in Presidential elections, as in that state, my vote may be as important as yours seems to be in Florida.



Thanks for striking a chord, that's pretty much my view here too. One thing that frustrates me is there are many local spots that run unchallenged because the D machine is too strong here. It frustrates me. I thought about running for some small local office but then I realized reality... I'm too out spoken when pressed for what I think. I wouldn't be able to hold my tongue, kiss someone's ass, or stroke someone's ego.
Whistlebritches Offline
#15 Posted:
Joined: 04-23-2006
Posts: 22,130
I vote in every election.....My vote is considered in the MAINSTREAM here in Texas.I consider my vote extremely important.......it cancels out out all those looney leftist in Austin,Houston and El Paso.



Ron
calavera Offline
#16 Posted:
Joined: 01-26-2002
Posts: 1,868
Here in ND, for all intents and purposes, none of our votes count. Just like the rest of the upper midwest. We have 3 electoral college votes. In past elections, the overwhelming majority of voters here have been republican. If we have 600,000 votes for a republican candidate, it does not matter, there are still just 3 electoral votes.

And if you are somewhere like kookafornia, it could be worse. If half the state minus one person voted republican, and the other half plus one person voted democrat, then all the electoral votes are democrat. Talk about millions of votes that just don't matter!

I think it should be a straight up popular vote.







J
havana1 Offline
#17 Posted:
Joined: 09-28-2012
Posts: 135
I live in The Socialist Republic of MD. I know my vote will not count for a couple reasons.

1. I will vote Repub.

2. I'm voting for the white guy; not because he's white but because he's a Repub.(which is a lot better than voting
for someone JUST BECAUSE they're black or white)

I'm not sure what it's like around other metro area's but around this metro area if you're black you stand a better
chance of getting elected for any local office no matter of experience...etc.

sad but true....
DrMaddVibe Offline
#18 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,618
Gene363 wrote:

Our current system sucks, however, the alternative is election by the audience of the Oprah and Jerry Springer shows. Thanks, I stick with the Constitution.



Yes, this folly of just going the way of the popular vote is EXACTLY why those zany Founding Fathers set up the Electoral College. They didn't want a candidate to go to just the cities with the most population and take the state. They realized that the other counties mattered too. They fully understood that people would move to states that were representing the same ideals they held. Take for granted the masses jettisoning out of New York (for the past several years!) because of their little taxation problem! You either fix the problem from within or MOVE! It's that easy.


People on this thread are worried their vote doesn't count or that there's more weight to theirs, I'll argue that EVERY VOTE COUNTS! Grasp for a second all of the soldiers that have died to maintain this great nation. To NOT vote is the biggest disservice a US citizen could make. It should be against the law to NOT vote (like it is in Australia!), and perhaps even make it a national holiday...hell, make it a 2 day holiday...because its so important. While we're doing that we can also make it mandatory to produce proof of citizenship! There are certain states that are called "swing states"...I'd prefer to call them "independent"! There isn't a clear delineation for either party so they have so expend more money, energy and time to capture those sweet sweet Electoral College votes. That moniker moves, it doesn't always stay locked to a state. As people move (take Texas for example...that place is SWELLING!) the EC votes count increase making it more "in play".

Either way this movement away from the Constitution or trying to split the hairs of the interpretation of it is killing this nation. It should be a high school requirement in each and every US school to read the Federalist Papers. Most on this board haven't and this thread SHOWS IT! This is how those wacky and crazy Founding Fathers pitched the idea of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights to this nation. Some of the ideas I pitched in this post are some of the ideas I would like our Legislative Branch to actually work on instead of subsidies for corporations and research for cows farting and which brand of ketchup falls off a spoon faster. Then again this nation is on the brink of disaster...go figure!
HockeyDad Offline
#19 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,208
We globalists control everything. Enjoy your meaningless votes.
bloody spaniard Offline
#20 Posted:
Joined: 03-14-2003
Posts: 43,802
My vote in Maryland hasn't "counted" to anyone but myself since I supported Nixon/Agnew as a kid. I've gotten used to it. Doesn't bother me.
Intend to do my civic duty & vote for Romney/Ryan. Then I'll get on with more important things like my life.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#21 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,618
HockeyDad wrote:
We globalists control everything. Enjoy your meaningless votes.



Darn...I thought I set ya up for a "FLYOVER STATE OUTRAGE" post..Frying pan
HockeyDad Offline
#22 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,208
I flew over a buncha states yesterday chock full of their meaningless votes!
Stinkdyr Offline
#23 Posted:
Joined: 06-16-2009
Posts: 9,948
havana1 wrote:
I live in The Socialist Republic of MD......

I'm not sure what it's like around other metro area's but around this metro area if you're black you stand a better
chance of getting elected for any local office no matter of experience...etc.

sad but true....



Same as Philly.


Beer


Stinkdyr Offline
#24 Posted:
Joined: 06-16-2009
Posts: 9,948
HockeyDad wrote:
We globalists control everything. Enjoy your meaningless votes.


Well, you and MS13.

Beer
Gene363 Offline
#25 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,881

99.999% of all voter fraud and disenfranchisement allegations politically motivated, disgusting and serve to undermine the validity of our elections. Both parties are guilty as hell and they can KMA. horse
jojoc Offline
#26 Posted:
Joined: 03-05-2007
Posts: 6,272
Robert

I git hit with a double whammy.

Idaho is a solid Red state. If I failed to vote red, it would still be a red state. If I vote white, it will still be a red state.

The total population of Idaho is about 1.5 million. The population of the greater Boise metropolitan area is over 600,000. As Boise votes, so goes the state. Boise is on Mountain Time. I live in the Pacific time zone. I usually vote on my way home from work. In most cases, the outcome for Idaho in national elections is announced long before I even cast my vote, and with the poles sometimes already closed in Boise, the outcome is not only announced, but actually determined.

regardless, I have in the past and will continue to vote. However, I take the concept of a representative government seriously. Regardless of who is elected, I do my best to have my voice heard all year long, every year. I write to my representatives almost every month on some issue. I also belong to a few organizations that lobby for positions that I agree with (in most cases).

Brewha Offline
#27 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,202
HockeyDad wrote:
I flew over a buncha states yesterday chock full of their meaningless votes!


Your arms must be tired.
rfenst Offline
#28 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,461
jojoc wrote:
Robert

I git hit with a double whammy.

Idaho is a solid Red state. If I failed to vote red, it would still be a red state. If I vote white, it will still be a red state.

The total population of Idaho is about 1.5 million. The population of the greater Boise metropolitan area is over 600,000. As Boise votes, so goes the state. Boise is on Mountain Time. I live in the Pacific time zone. I usually vote on my way home from work. In most cases, the outcome for Idaho in national elections is announced long before I even cast my vote, and with the poles sometimes already closed in Boise, the outcome is not only announced, but actually determined.

regardless, I have in the past and will continue to vote. However, I take the concept of a representative government seriously. Regardless of who is elected, I do my best to have my voice heard all year long, every year. I write to my representatives almost every month on some issue. I also belong to a few organizations that lobby for positions that I agree with (in most cases).




I find it pathetic and upsetting that any exit polls or projections are reported until after the last polls in the ContUS are closed and everyone who chooses to vote is finished. The notion of people not voting or feeling their vote is a waste just because of different time zones is just plain wrong.
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