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Last post 11 years ago by DrafterX. 29 replies replies.
other issue that shouldn't be left/right
ZRX1200 Offline
#1 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,673
This Week's Senate Scandal: Scorn for the 4th Amendment

Conor Friedersdorf | 6:00 AM ET

Crucial attempts to rein in government spying failed Thursday, guaranteeing that the privacy of more innocent Americans will be violated.

Senator Dianne Feinstein, a California Democrat, misled with her rhetoric during floor debates. / Reuters

I haven't passed the bar, but I know a little bit about the 4th Amendment. Have you read it lately? "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated," it states in plain English, "and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

That's all of it.

The landline in your house? The government needs a warrant to tap it. The letters in your mailbox? The government needs a warrant to read 'em. It's like the Framers said: probable cause is required.

Yet a text or an email, even one sent from your bed, is treated differently -- it's afforded much less protection from government snoops, even though we're increasingly going all digital in our communication.

Why?

Senator Rand Paul raised that question Thursday on the Senate floor. "We became lazy and haphazard in our vigilance," he told his colleagues during a debate about government surveillance. "We allowed Congress and the courts to diminish our Fourth Amendment protection, particularly when our papers were held by third parties. I think most Americans would be shocked to know that the Fourth Amendment does not protect your records if they're banking, Internet or Visa records. A warrant is required to read your snail mail and to tap your phone, but no warrant is required to look at your email, text or your Internet searches. They can be read without a warrant. Why is a phone call more deserving of privacy protection than an email?"

The subject came up because the legislators were debating whether or not to extend a law that gives the federal government surveillance powers that some say are necessary to fight terrorism, especially by intercepting foreign communication that originates outside the United States. "This sparsely-attended holiday session is likely to be the only full floor debate on sweeping surveillance legislation that has been in force for four years already (during which we know it has already been used unconstitutionally), and is all but certain to be renewed for another five," Julian Sanchez, Cato's expert on the subject, wrote before the debate began. "That's especially disturbing given that, when the House debated the law back in September, its strongest supporters revealed themselves to be profoundly confused about what the law does, and just how much warrantless spying on the communications of American citizens it permits."

So why specifically is the law objectionable? Just ignore the acronyms and you'll understand just fine:

The FAA authorizes large scale surveillance of Americans' communications. Supporters of the act suggested again and again that this can't be true, because the law requires NSA surveillance programs to have a foreign 'target.' But this is based on a misunderstanding of what 'target' means in FISA. As former Deputy Attorney General David Kris explains at length in his book on the law, the 'target' of a surveillance program under FAA is typically just the foreign group--such as Al Qaeda or Wikileaks--that the government is seeking information about. The FISA court approves general procedures for surveillance, but it's NSA agents who decide which particular phone lines and e-mail accounts will be wiretapped, and there is no explicit requirement that these particular phones and e-mail addresses be foreign--only the program's overall target.

And of course, there is something historically very strange about imagining that surveillance can only violate the rights of named targets: The Founders abhorred 'general warrants,' which they passed the Fourth Amendment to abolish, precisely because these warrants authorized searches of people and homes who were not specifically named targets, exactly as the FAA does.

Making the case for continuing to empower the Obama Administration and its spying, the Heritage Foundation's Jessica Zuckerman mentions neither the past abuses associated with the legislation nor the ways the private communication of innocent Americans are made vulnerable by it.

Sanchez, a policy analyst at The Cato Institute, reported on several efforts to amend the legislation to better protect innocent Americans from government spying on their communications, including what he characterized as several "very mild, common sense tweaks," which I'll detail shortly, and a proposal by Senator Paul that he described as "genuinely radical."

Sen. Paul's proposal, as described on his Web site, "extends Fourth Amendment guarantees to electronic communications and requires specific warrants" if police want to search or seize them. What does it say about how far afield we are from the spirit of the 4th Amendment that the mere attempt to reaffirm it for the electronic age would require radical change?

Senator Paul's amendment failed 79 to 12*.

What about the lesser tweaks I mentioned?

Senator Leahy tried to amend the law so that it would be extended for three years rather than five, but he was voted down --put another way, we don't know who'll be president when this law comes up again for renewal. But what really gets me is the failure of Senator Merkley's amendment.

In order to understand it, you'll need a bit of information I'm hesitant to share, because if you're like most people, it'll sound too egregious to be true, and you might think that I am making it up.

I assure you I'm not.

The thing is that there's a legal interpretation that shapes how surveillance is conducted under current law. And it's a secret interpretation -- a memo written up by government lawyers explaining how the law works, but that Americans subject to the law aren't allowed to see. Senator Ron Wyden, who has seen it, says it's problematic -- that the 'lawyer take' isn't what a lot of people might expect, given the text of the law. But he isn't allowed to say anything more specific.

Openly debating the interpretation is verboten!

If you'll go into the weeds with me very briefly, here's the Electronic Frontier Foundation explaining further:

In 2010 and 2011, Obama administration officials promised to work to declassify secret FISA court opinions that contained "important rulings of law." These opinions would shed light on whether and how Americans' communications have been illegally spied on. Since then, the administration has refused to declassify a single opinion, even though the administration admitted in July that the FISA court ruled that collection done under the FAA had violated the Fourth Amendment rights of an unknown number of Americans on at least one occasion.

Starting with the precept that "secret law is inconsistent with democratic governance," Sen. Jeff Merkley's amendment would force the government to release any FISA court opinions that contain significant interpretations of the FISA Amendments Act so the American public can know how it may or may not be used against them.

And even Senator Merkley's amendment failed!

A majority of the Senate bears responsibility for this scandalous abandonment of the Fourth Amendment. And TechDirt rightly singles out Democratic Senator Dianne Feinstein of California:

Senators Ron Wyden and Jeff Merkley did their best to raise significant issues, but Senator Dianne Feinstein kept shutting them down with bogus or misleading arguments, almost always punctuated with scary claims about how we had "only four days!" to renew the FISA Amendment Acts or "important" tools for law enforcement would "expire." It turns out that's not actually true. While the law would expire, the provisions sweeping orders already issued would remain in place for a year -- allowing plenty of time for a real debate.

Furthermore, Feinstein continued to mislead (bordering on outright lies) about the FISA Amendments Act. While some of the proposed amendments focused on finally forcing the secret interpretation of the FISA Amendments Act to be disclosed, Feinstein held up the text of the bill and insisted there "is no secret law" and that "the text is public." That assumes that "the law" and "the text of the legislation" are one and the same. They are not. As Julian Sanchez notes, imagine that Supreme Court rulings were all classified, how would you interpret the Constitution? You could make guesses, based on what the law said, but without the court's rulings, you would not know what that meant in practice. That's exactly the situation we have with the FISA Amendments Act... and it's made even worse by the fact that those who have seen the still-secret interpretation -- such as Senator Wyden -- have made it clear that its quite different than what most people think the law says.

Just days ago I wrote about Congress' scandalous abandonment of the 5th amendment. And now the Senate has reminded attentive Americans that it has too little regard for the 4th Amendment too. Draw your own conclusions about what President Obama is signalling by going along.

________

*Its supporters included Senators Baucus (D-MT), Begich (D-AK), Cantwell (D-WA), Heller (R-NV), Lee (R-UT), Merkley (D-OR), Stabenow (D-MI), Tester (D-MT), Udall (D-NM), Webb (D-VA), and Wyden (D-OR).










How did your senator vote?
Abrignac Offline
#2 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,367
1984
jackconrad Offline
#3 Posted:
Joined: 06-09-2003
Posts: 67,461
"UP AGAINST THE WALL!"
daveincincy Offline
#4 Posted:
Joined: 08-11-2006
Posts: 20,033
The founding fathers should have googled everything (or at least checked with Ram) before drawing up the Constitution.

Now they can only ROFL or perhaps RITG (roll in their graves)
Brewha Offline
#5 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,202
Abrignac wrote:
1984

By the end of the book, the lead character loved Big Brother . . . .
nicholasjames Offline
#6 Posted:
Joined: 10-15-2012
Posts: 505
Brewha wrote:
By the end of the book, the lead character loved Big Brother . . . .



good point. but only after an undetermined long period of torture.
Brewha Offline
#7 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,202
nicholasjames wrote:
good point. but only after an undetermined long period of torture.

It made the coercion more scary than the lack of freedom.
DadZilla3 Offline
#8 Posted:
Joined: 01-17-2009
Posts: 4,633
nicholasjames wrote:
good point. but only after an undetermined long period of torture.

He did get laid a lot beforehand though.
Brewha Offline
#9 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,202
DadZilla3 wrote:
He did get laid a lot beforehand though.

Yeah, and he got TONS of free cable . . . .
ZRX1200 Offline
#10 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,673
The central scrutinizer gave Joe a hook up with a Magical Pig and a blow up gay Bob doll.
ZRX1200 Offline
#11 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,673
I see you rfenster......

Joe:

Fick mich, du miserabler Hurensohn
Du miserabler Hurensohn
Fick mich, du miserabler Hurensohn
Streck ihn aus
Streck aus deinem heißen gelockten
Streck ihn aus
Streck aus deinem heißen gelockten
Streck ihn aus
Streck aus deinem heißen gelockten Schwanz
Ah-ee-ahee-ahhhhh!
Mach es sehr schnell
Rein und raus
Magisches Schwein
Mach es sehr schnell
Rein und raus
Magisches Schwein
Bis es spritzt, spritzt, spritzt, spritzt
Feuer!
Bis es spritzt, spritzt, spritzt, spritzt
Feuer!
Aber beklecker nicht das Sofa, Sofa!
Aber beklecker nicht das Sofa, Sofa!
Aber beklecker nicht das Sofa, Sofa!
Aber beklecker nicht das Sofa, Sofa!

Sy Borg:

Pick me . . . I'm clean . . . I am also programmed for conversational English.

May I have this dance?

Joe:

I've got a better idea . . .

**** me, you ugly son of a bitch
You ugly son of a bitch
**** me, you ugly son of a bitch
Stick it out
Stick out yer hot curly weenie
Stick it out
Stick out yer hot curly weenie
Stick it out
Stick out yer hot curly weenie
Weenie . . . weenie, weenie, weenie!
Make it go fast
(In and out)
In and out,
Magical Pig
Make it go fast
(In and out)
In and out,
Magical Pig
Till it squirts (squirts), squirts (squirts), squirts (squirts), squirts (squirts)
Fire
Till it squirts (squirts), squirts (squirts), squirts (squirts), squirts (squirts)
Fire
Don't get no jizz upon that sofa, sofa
Don't get no jizz upon that sofa, sofa
Don't get no jizz upon that sofa, sofa
Don't get no jizz upon that sofa, sofa

Sy Borg:

What's a girl like you
Doing in a place like this?
Do you come here often?
Wait a minute. . .
I've got it . . .
You're an Italian . . .
What? You're Jewish?
Love your nails . . .
You must be a Libra . . .
Your place or mine?
Your place or mine?
Your place or mine?
Your place or mine?
Your place or mine?
Your place or mine?

See the chrome
Feel the chrome
Touch the chrome
Heal the chrome
See the screaming
Hot black steaming
Iridescent naugahyde python screaming
Steam Roller!

Central Scrutinizer:

This is the CENTRAL SCRUTINIZER . . . Joe and his date are going back to the apartment to have a little party . . .

12. SCENE ELEVEN: Sy Borg 8:55
Previous | Top | Notes & Comments | Songlist | Next

includes quotes from All The Way (Cahn/Van Heusen), Oh No and Pushin' Too Hard (Saxon)

Joe:

Sy Borg
Gimme dat, gimme dat
Sy Borg
Gimme dat, give me the chromium leg,
I beg
Sy Borg
Gimme dat, gimme dat
Sy Borg
Gimme dat, give me the chromium leg,
Little wires, pliers, tires
They turn me on
Maybe I'm crazy
Maybe I'm crazy
Maybe I'm crazy, mon . . .

Gee, Sy
This is a real groovy apartment
You've got here

Sy Borg:

All government sponsored recreational services are clean and efficient

Joe:

This is exciting
I never plooked
A tiny chrome-plated machine
That looks like a magical pig
With marital aids stuck all over it
Such as yourself before

Sy Borg:

You'll love it!
It's a way of life.

Joe:

Does that mean maybe later
You'll plook me . . .

Sy Borg:

If you wish, we may have a groovy orgy

Joe:

Just me and you?

Sy Borg:

I share this apartment
With a modified
Gay Bob doll
He goes all the way . . .
Ever try oral sex with a miniature rubberized homo-replica?

Joe:

No, ah, not yet
Ah, is this him?

Sy Borg:

This is him.
Your wish is his command
He likes you
He wants to kiss you always
Just tell him what you want

Joe:

Really?
Hi, little guy
Think I might get a tiny, but exciting
Blow . . . job . . .
Gimme dat, gimme dat
**** . . .
Gimme dat, give me de chromium cob.

Sy Borg:

Bend over.

Joe:

Gay Bob
****
Gimme dat, gimme dat
****
Gimme dat, give me de chromium cob

Sy Borg:

You'll love it!
It looks just like a TeleFunken U-47.

Joe:

Little leather cap and trousers
They look so gay . . .
Warren just bought some
Warren just bought some
Warren just bought some
Hey . . .

Sy Borg:

Bob is tired.
Plook me now,
You savage rascal
Ehhh! That tickles.
You are a fun person
I like you.
I want to kiss you always.

Joe:

Gee, this is great
How's about some bondage and humiliation?

Sy Borg:

Anything you say, master.

Joe:

Oh no, I don't believe it
You're way more fun than Mary . . .

Sy Borg:

You're plooking too hard . . .

Joe:

And cleaner than Lucille . . .

Sy Borg:

Plooking on me . . .

Joe:

What have I been missing
All these years?

Sy Borg:

Too hard

Joe:

Sy . . .

Sy Borg:

Too hard

Joe:

Sy . . .

Sy Borg:

Plooking too hard on me-e-e-e-e . . .

Joe:

Speak to me
Oh no . . .
The golden shower must have shorted out
His master circuit
He's, he's, oh my God
I must have plooked him . . .
Hey
To death . . .
Hey

Central Scrutinizer:

This is the CENTRAL SCRUTINIZER . . .
You have just destroyed one model XQJ-37 Nuclear Powered Pan-Sexual Roto-Plooker
And you're gonna have to pay for it!
So give up, you haven't got a chance.

Joe:

But I . . .
I, I, I, I, I . . .
I can't pay
I gave all my money
To some kinda groovy religious guy . . .
Two songs ago . . .

Central Scrutinizer:

Come on out son . . .
Between the two of us
We'll find a way to
Work it out

rfenst Offline
#12 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,447
SCOTUS has long held that if your Fourth Am right to privacy is violated, the information and its "fruit" are inadmissible against you (but not others whose rights were not violated by the same intrusion).
ZRX1200 Offline
#13 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,673
The Senate voted Friday to re-authorize key provisions of the foreign surveillance act that has allowed warrantless wiretapping, despite questions from some senators about the extent of the federal government’s monitoring of American citizens.

Supporters say the bill provides vital intelligence about terrorists plotting to attack the United States, while critics claim there are insufficient checks to protect basic privacy rights.

Like the George W. Bush White House before it, the Obama administration pushed for a “clean” re-authorization of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) amendments package, while critics pushed for details about when the government has intercepted emails and telephone calls without a warrant. The House renewed the legislation in September.

Both the chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, California Democratic Sen. Dianne Feinstein, and the ranking member, Georgia Republican Sen. Saxby Chambliss, also advocated renewing the law for another five years without any changes. Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid also demanded action.

“FISA, this is an important piece of legislation as imperfect as it is, it is necessary to protect us from the evil in this world,” Reid said on the Senate floor last week, in an unsuccessful attempt to re-up the bill before Christmas.

“But Christmas is not more important than this legislation,” Reid continued. “I hope I’m not offending anyone, but it isn’t.”

“No one should think the targets are U.S. persons,” said Feinstein on Thursday. “Thirteen members of the intelligence committee who have voted on this do not believe this is a problem.”

Oregon Democratic Sen. Ron Wyden, who had put a hold on the bill, demanded to know how many Americans’ communications had been subject to surveillance. He was unable to obtain an estimate. He said that the law should not be “an ‘end run’ around traditional warrant requirements and conduct backdoor searches for American’s communications.”

Wyden’s amendment requiring a report on the privacy impact of the law was the last obstacle to a clean bill. It was defeated Friday by a vote of 52 to 43.

Fellow Oregon Democratic Sen. Jeff Merkley introduced an amendment requiring the government to declassify key decisions by the secret FISA court, arguing against “secret law” in surveillance. Kentucky Republican Sen. Rand Paul extending Fourth Amendment protections to electronic communications.

Paul argued that just by looking at credit card statements, “the government may be able to ascertain what magazines you read, whether you drink and how much, whether you gamble and how much, whether you’re a conservative, a liberal, a libertarian, whom do you contribute to, who is your preferred political party, whether you attend a church, a synagogue or a mosque, whether you see a psychiatrist, what type of medication do you take.”

“By poring over your Visa statement, the government can pry into every aspect of your personal life,” the senator continued. “Do you really want to allow your government unfettered access to sift through millions and millions of records without first obtaining a judicial warrant?”

The Paul and Merkley amendments were both defeated on Thursday.

The debate was testy at times. At one point, Feinstein said of privacy amendment supporters, “I guess you believe no one is going to attack us, then it’s fine to do this.”

While running for president in 2008, Obama pledged to have his attorney general “conduct a comprehensive review of all our surveillance programs, and to make further recommendations on any steps needed to preserve civil liberties and to prevent executive branch abuse in the future.”

Yet civil libertarians have been disappointed. “I bet [Bush] is laughing his ass off,” Michelle Richardson, legislative counsel in the Washington office of the American Civil Liberties Union, told Huffington Post.

The final Senate vote was 73 to 23 in favor of renewing the FISA provisions until 2018. The president is expected to sign the extension before the law expires early next year.
DrafterX Offline
#14 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,588
Those bassards..!! Mad
Brewha Offline
#15 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,202
Joe was sent to a special prison where they keep all the other criminals from the music business . . . you know . . . the ones who get caught . . . it's a horrible place, painted all green on the inside, where musicians and former executives take turns snorting detergent and plooking each other . . .


I would say more, except everyone seems to think I am the Packard Goose . . . . .
JadeRose Offline
#16 Posted:
Joined: 05-15-2008
Posts: 19,525
Brewha wrote:
Joe was sent to a special prison where they keep all the other criminals from the music business . . . you know . . . the ones who get caught . . . it's a horrible place, painted all green on the inside, where musicians and former executives take turns snorting detergent and plooking each other . . .


I would say more, except everyone seems to think I am the Packard Goose . . . . .







Or the Ronald MacDonald of the nouveau-abstruse
BuckyB93 Offline
#17 Posted:
Joined: 07-16-2004
Posts: 14,243
Our elected officials (who are supposed to work for us) can find time to push through crap like this and other garbage laws but not find time to work on a budget & financial issues that will strap my children with the skyrocketing debt?

Nero fiddled while Rome burned.

I'm ashamed with our electorate and what our government is leaving behind for my kids to deal with. They did not ask for this nor deserve this.

{Sigh}

DrafterX Offline
#18 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,588
ya..... there seems to be a larger agenda out there.... I'm buying more ammo... Mellow
HockeyDad Offline
#19 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,199
BuckyB93 wrote:
I'm ashamed with our electorate and what our government is leaving behind for my kids to deal with. They did not ask for this nor deserve this.




Well your kids didn't say that they didn't want it.

Signed: The Government
rfenst Offline
#20 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,447
BuckyB93 wrote:
I'm ashamed with our electorate and what our government is leaving behind for my kids to deal with. They did not ask for this nor deserve this.


Why should anyone have an expectation of government fiscal solvency for their children? Next thing you know, we will be giving them tax cuts, tax deductions and government sponsored medical care...
Brewha Offline
#21 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,202
DrafterX wrote:
ya..... there seems to be a larger agenda out there.... I'm buying more ammo... Mellow

Don't for get the clips . . . . .
Brewha Offline
#22 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,202
rfenst wrote:
Why should anyone have an expectation of government fiscal solvency for their children? Next thing you know, we will be giving them tax cuts, tax deductions and government sponsored medical care...

Dogs and cats living together - real Old Testament stuff . . . . .
rfenst Offline
#23 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,447
Brewha wrote:
Dogs and cats living together - real Old Testament stuff . . . . .


All right, all right! I get the point!
frankj1 Offline
#24 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,257
your op is correct Jamie, this only becomes a left or right issue of outrage when a lefty or righty swing in government occurs. therefore every citizen should be outraged by the current and potential erosion of our rights and freedoms FROM government even when one's "side" is in power.

Good thread. Thanks
ZRX1200 Offline
#25 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,673
Thanks for that ^ good to hear your response
rfenst Offline
#26 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,447
frankj1 wrote:
your op is correct Jamie, this only becomes a left or right issue of outrage when a lefty or righty swing in government occurs. therefore every citizen should be outraged by the current and potential erosion of our rights and freedoms FROM government even when one's "side" is in power.

Good thread. Thanks


SCOTUS can overturn this and every other legislative attempt to broaden government search and seizure powers. Since it could serve to suppress freedom of speech/expression ("Chilling Effect"), it can be challenged without a specific case to which it has been applied. That is, it can be prospectively brought before a federal court without anyone even claiming specific, personal damage.
frankj1 Offline
#27 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,257
rfenst wrote:
SCOTUS can overturn this and every other legislative attempt to broaden government search and seizure powers. Since it could serve to suppress freedom of speech/expression ("Chilling Effect"), it can be challenged without a specific case to which it has been applied. That is, it can be prospectively brought before a federal court without anyone even claiming specific, personal damage.

somewhat comforting, but how would it get to them, and how would the current SCOTUS rule...in your opinion?
ZRX1200 Offline
#28 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,673
Robert in this new age I have no faith that that they cannot be gotten to. And they are appointed by the same people doing this from both sides.
DrafterX Offline
#29 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,588
rfenst wrote:
SCOTUS can overturn this and every other legislative attempt to broaden government search and seizure powers. Since it could serve to suppress freedom of speech/expression ("Chilling Effect"), it can be challenged without a specific case to which it has been applied. That is, it can be prospectively brought before a federal court without anyone even claiming specific, personal damage.



They could....unless Obama says it would be bad to do so... Mellow
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