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Arab-Israeli Peace!
HockeyDad Offline
#1 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,192
Peace talks resume in 3 days! In unrelated news.....



Israel's housing minister on Sunday gave final approval to build nearly 1,200 apartments in Jewish settlements, just three days before Israeli-Palestinian peace talks are to resume in Jerusalem.

There was no immediate Palestinian comment, though the announcement by Housing Minister Uri Ariel was bound to deepen the atmosphere of distrust as the two sides head into talks after a five-year freeze.

Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas had long insisted he would not resume talks without an Israeli settlement freeze, arguing that the expansion of settlements is pre-empting the outcome of negotiations.

The Palestinians want to establish a state in the West Bank, Gaza and east Jerusalem, captured by Israel in 1967. Israel has built dozens of settlements in the West Bank and east Jerusalem that are now home to some 560,000 Israelis.

In the end, Abbas agreed to enter talks without a settlement freeze. In an apparent tradeoff, Israel agreed to release 104 long-held Palestinian prisoners in four installments over several months, with the first group of 26 to be freed Tuesday.

In Sunday's announcement, the Housing Ministry said 1,187 apartments had been given final approval, the last stage before issuing tenders to contractors. Of those, 793 will be built in neighborhoods for Jews in east Jerusalem, annexed by Israel shortly after the 1967 Mideast war. Most of the international community does not recognize the annexation.

In addition, 394 apartments are to be built in several large West Bank settlements, including Maaleh Adumim, Efrat and Ariel. The latter sits in the heart of the West Bank, and its expansion could be particularly problematic for negotiators trying to carve out a viable Palestinian state.

The housing minister, a leading member of the pro-settler party Jewish Home, said construction would continue.

"No country in the world takes orders from other countries where it can build and where it can't," Ariel said in his statement. "We will continue to market housing and build in the entire country ... This is the right thing at the present time, for Zionism and for the economy."

rfenst Online
#2 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,431
Hopfully, this is merely a crude "bargaining chip". Otherwise, the discussions/negotiations are already hung and will be for years to come.
frankj1 Offline
#3 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,252
far more damaging just days earlier was the unreported (here) staements by Palestinian spokesmen that no Israeli/Jew will be allowed to live in a future Palestine, and that they still will not recognize the legitimacy of Israel.
engletl Offline
#4 Posted:
Joined: 12-26-2000
Posts: 26,493
HockeyDad wrote:
Peace talks resume in 3 days! In unrelated news.....


And in other news...300,000,000 rockets are set to be launched at Israel tomorrow while the IDF reqadies plans of a major offensive to take place in 2 days

Sarcasm
HockeyDad Offline
#5 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,192
engletl wrote:
And in other news...300,000,000 rockets are set to be launched at Israel tomorrow while the IDF reqadies plans of a major offensive to take place in 2 days

Sarcasm




....and the invoice for the cost of this has been prepared and forwarded to the US taxpayers!
HockeyDad Offline
#6 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,192
Finance Minister Yair Lapid lashed out Sunday at the decision to build more than one thousand new homes in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, calling it "a double mistake."

Lapid's comments came on the heels of similar condemnation by Meretz leader, Zahava Gal-On, who accused the government of trying to stymie the nascent peace negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians.

"Announcing the decision to market 1,200 housing units in east Jerusalem and in the larger settlement blocs at this time is a double mistake," Lapid said in a statement.

"Solutions for the problem of housing should be founded in the areas of need," he wrote. "Additionally, the use of resources meant to provide housing for the middle class to needlessly defy the Americans will impede the peace process."

Gal-On branded decision "a roadside bomb the government has placed to eliminate the peace negotiations before they even begin."

She added that there would never be a peace agreement until Israel adheres to the 1967 lines and a territorial exchange.

Opposition leader Shelly Yacimovich added her voice to those slamming the decision, saying that the move destroys all progress the negotiations have made so far.

"There is no practical meaning the announcement, all it accomplishes is to violently torpedo the seeds of international recognition and support that we have garnered for the renewed peace talks," she said in a statement.

She called on Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu to "choose what type of government he is heading - a government that seeks a political agreement or a government that denies the possibility of a diplomatic solution."

Jerusalem Mayor Nir Barkat, however, who welcomed the move to built 800 new housing units in the Jerusalem area.

"New construction in Jerusalem is essential to the development and strengthening of the city and for allowing young people to live and buy apartments," Barkat said, "I am glad that the government of Israel sees us eye to eye on this important need."

He also said that there is a need to continue to develop more housing as well as to invest in "continued economic, cultural and educational development."

The decision by the Ministry of Construction and Housing, currently under the control of Bayit Yehudi's Uri Ariel, comes a few days before the first of four planned Palestinian prisoner releases that are part of the renewed negotiations.

Yesh Atid MK Ofer Shelah echoed his party chairman Yair Lapid's criticism of the government's announcement that the state would issue 1,200 tenders for homes in east Jerusalem and the West Bank.

"This decision… is errant and dangerous, not just because of the timing - just before the renewal of peace talks with the Palestinians after years of disconnect - but because of the outrageous parallel that is being created between Israeli gestures, like the release of Palestinian prisoners, and the establishing of facts on the ground that will complicate future negotiations."

"Instead of courageously stating what is so obvious to every Israeli – that there won't be a final status agreement without a return to the June 4, 1967 lines with slight border adjustments and territorial swaps, the government prefers to zigzag between steps that are morally questionable and continuing the settlement enterprise, which is a key obstacle to any agreement."
rfenst Online
#7 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,431
So, as expected we have waring factions from within the cobbled-together majority lead by Netenyahu. One hand seems not to know what the other is doing. Hopefully, this went down without approval of the cabinet (including Netanyahu). Now, if what Frank says about a refusal to ever conced Israel's right to exist, then the whole proces is a sham and could not have lead anywhere. Perhaps this is just a little bit of "an eye for an eye" in the negotiation process? I doubt it.





(HD: if you are borred today, meet us in Bradenton for the match. You know how to reach me...)
HockeyDad Offline
#8 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,192
rfenst wrote:
(HD: if you are borred today, meet us in Bradenton for the match. You know how to reach me...)


I would in a heartbeat but my day is pretty slammed. When is game time?
HockeyDad Offline
#9 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,192
"While his negotiators are in Washington meeting with Israeli officials and Secretary of State John Kerry, Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas laid out his vision for a future Palestinian state in which he insists no Israelis will be allowed to remain.

“In a final resolution, we would not see the presence of a single Israeli – civilian or soldier – on our lands,” Abbas said in a briefing to mostly Egyptian journalists while on a visit to Cairo Monday."



It is standard doctrine. I don't think there is an expectation from either side that any final borders will leave any Jewish settlements inside Palestine and there is no way the Israeli army will remain as occupiers. Israel has over 500,000 Jews in settlements in the West Bank and those areas will all get annexed into Israel officially and hopefully finally recognized internationally if a peace agreement is reached. Right now they are not recognized as Israel and are a violation of international law.
TarponMan Offline
#10 Posted:
Joined: 12-19-2007
Posts: 144
The hatred for Israel runs so deep, the possibility for peace appears remote. As Abba Eban said, "The Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity."
HockeyDad Offline
#11 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,192
TarponMan wrote:
The hatred for Israel runs so deep, the possibility for peace appears remote. As Abba Eban said, "The Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity."



They just don't understand an "Israeli hug".
TarponMan Offline
#12 Posted:
Joined: 12-19-2007
Posts: 144
Even if Israel concedes to giving up land and conforming to the pre-1967 borders, the Palestinians will continue to attack Israel, with the hope they will be destroyed, and driven from the middle-east. The Arab world, and Russia are patiently waiting for this to occur. Israel's prosperity and progress has made them a plum for conquest. When it's attempted, the whole world will be effected, and Mr. Obama will be faced with some decisions he is not competent to make. This is a critical time, and there's not much we can do, except watch it unfold. God is control of this particular situation.
HockeyDad Offline
#13 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,192
I blame God for creating this cluster**** wait...that seems wrong.
TarponMan Offline
#14 Posted:
Joined: 12-19-2007
Posts: 144
Dad,

I understand your view, but there's a lot of evil things going on now, that will be corrected. Just watch...
Burner02 Offline
#15 Posted:
Joined: 12-21-2010
Posts: 12,884
Good f***king luck with this idea.


Only in a perfect world.
bloody spaniard Offline
#16 Posted:
Joined: 03-14-2003
Posts: 43,802
TarponMan wrote:
Dad,
I understand your view, but there's a lot of evil things going on now, that will be corrected. Just watch...



I agree.... but it may get a bit messy. lol
TarponMan Offline
#17 Posted:
Joined: 12-19-2007
Posts: 144
Yeah, it'll be beyond messy. it will beyond what we can imagine. God will defeat His enemies in a way we've never seen. Wait and see...
Abrignac Online
#18 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,358
I've got popcorn a poppin'.
rfenst Online
#19 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,431
TarponMan wrote:
God is control of this particular situation.


Then Obama's competence is not relevant. He will make the choices God wants him to make. After all, this is all pre-determined, right?
rfenst Online
#20 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,431
Abrignac wrote:
I've got popcorn a poppin'.


'bout time we had a new topic.
Abrignac Online
#21 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,358
rfenst wrote:
'bout time we had a new topic.



On second thought, I'm highly confident (where have we heard that phrase before) that even though statesmen over the past 2000+ years haven't solved the Arab-Isreali situation, a group of arm chair quarterbacks loosely held together by their love of tobacco will hammer out an eternal peace plan in the next five minutes. That or Mom is gonna band someone tommorrow morning.
HockeyDad Offline
#22 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,192
Wouldn't it be funny if they actually made peace and Christian end of times predictions fell apart?!
rfenst Online
#23 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,431
Abrignac wrote:
On second thought, I'm highly confident (where have we heard that phrase before) that even though statesmen over the past 2000+ years haven't solved the Arab-Isreali situation, a group of arm chair quarterbacks loosely held together by their love of tobacco will hammer out an eternal peace plan in the next five minutes. That or Mom is gonna band someone tommorrow morning.


We probably could come real close, but the 2,000 years in to the future is an arbitrary amount of time. Just 100 years would do just fine. What I cannot grasp is that they are biting off more than they can chew. Why not implement every little thing they already agree 100% on, saving the more contentious issue(s) (Jerusalem) for last. Agreed upon resolutions could be implemented little by little. If all goes as well as can be expected, that might lead to trust and easier bargaining on the bigger issues. However, this would be political suicide on both sides as neither can move forward without first securing the "big prize".
rfenst Online
#24 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,431
HockeyDad wrote:
Wouldn't it be funny if they actually made peace and Christian end of times predictions fell apart?!


No, but it would be ironic for those who do not beleivet that prophecy. That prophacy is predominanly why the U.S. supports Israel to the extent it does.
Abrignac Online
#25 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,358
rfenst wrote:
We probably could come real close, but the 2,000 years in to the future is an arbitrary amount of time. Just 100 years would do just fine. What I cannot grasp is that they are biting off more than they can chew. Why not implement every little thing they already agree 100% on, saving the more contentious issue(s) (Jerusalem) for last. Agreed upon resolutions could be implemented little by little. If all goes as well as can be expected, that might lead to trust and easier bargaining on the bigger issues. However, this would be political suicide on both sides as neither can move forward without first securing the "big prize".



Would be nice, but I doubt that region will ever know peace. Two groups of people have been fighting over the same piece of parch desert Biblical times. Neither group will ever be satisfied until the other group is completely annihilated.

I still trying to understand our national security interest.
ZRX1200 Offline
#26 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,661
I say we let them all fight in cage matches and televise the events and reimburse the USA for all the money we send them both.
bloody spaniard Offline
#27 Posted:
Joined: 03-14-2003
Posts: 43,802
HockeyDad wrote:
Wouldn't it be funny if they actually made peace and Christian end of times predictions fell apart?!

That's part of prophecy. Peace WILL be made. Then, hell breaks loose but not for you 'cause you'll be in your cone of protection with agent 99 and the chief discussing successful, ponzi strategeries.
HockeyDad Offline
#28 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,192
bloody spaniard wrote:
That's part of prophecy. Peace WILL be made.



Aren't we supposed to get WW3 first?
bloody spaniard Offline
#29 Posted:
Joined: 03-14-2003
Posts: 43,802
HockeyDad wrote:
Aren't we supposed to get WW3 first?

Probably, but not sure. Guess it's meant to be that way. Know that there's an army from the north (Russia) that approaches with it's muslim allies to attack Israel. The antichrist and his minions will rise to protect her and a third of the world's population will be destroyed but the northern army will be defeated. 7 years of peace and then the REAL fun starts when the antichrist teams up with the 100 million man Chinese army approaching from the east towards Israel. THAT is when it ends for enemies of Israel but you'll be fine under your cone. Your hair will turn out NICE.
HockeyDad Offline
#30 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,192
bloody spaniard wrote:
Probably, but not sure. Guess it's meant to be that way. Know that there's an army from the north (Russia) that approaches with it's muslim allies to attack Israel. The antichrist and his minions will rise to protect her and a third of the world's population will be destroyed but the northern army will be defeated. 7 years of peace and then the REAL fun starts when the antichrist teams up with the 100 million man Chinese army approaching from the east towards Israel. THAT is when it ends for enemies of Israel but you'll be fine under your cone. Your hair will turn out NICE.



OK, that's what I thought. We gotta have a huge war before have the "big" war. We can't have an Arab-Israeli peace until after the first war or the whole prophecy falls down. I'm glad I'm gonna rapture out before all this happens.

So at least for now.......Booooo peace. Booooo!
DrafterX Offline
#31 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,583
I thought there was gonna be zombies & stuff.... Huh
HockeyDad Offline
#32 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,192
DrafterX wrote:
I thought there was gonna be zombies & stuff.... Huh



No....Obama is term limited.
bloody spaniard Offline
#33 Posted:
Joined: 03-14-2003
Posts: 43,802
HD, Tarponman (and my wife) are probably better suited to discuss this but I believe that's what's going to happen.

I love Drafter. He always posts stuff that don't have anything to do with the topic at hand. That's a rare gift!Applause
frankj1 Offline
#34 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,252
HockeyDad wrote:
"While his negotiators are in Washington meeting with Israeli officials and Secretary of State John Kerry, Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas laid out his vision for a future Palestinian state in which he insists no Israelis will be allowed to remain.

“In a final resolution, we would not see the presence of a single Israeli – civilian or soldier – on our lands,” Abbas said in a briefing to mostly Egyptian journalists while on a visit to Cairo Monday."


Nice find! Thanks. And that's from Abbas, hardly representing the the terrorist/military/lunatic wing. Quite the contrary, they consider him a real lightweight. Won't be easy, very surprised Kerry even got this far.

I typed my post and then hopped in the waiting car and headed to The Cape. Had no idea how nicely everyone would play while I had a parallel vacation with the Prez.
HockeyDad Offline
#35 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,192
Ban Ki-moon, the UN secretary-general, has termed Israeli plans to press ahead with the construction of more than 1,000 homes in two occupied West Bank settlements "a violation of international law", according to his spokesperson.

The Israeli announcement to authorise the building of 550 housing units in Bruchin and 537 units in Itamar was also met with condemnation by the United States and Palestine.

"These are unhelpful decisions that undermine progress towards the two-state solution," Martin Nesirky, Ban's spokesperson, said on Friday, a day after the announcement.

"They constitute a deeply worrisome trend at a moment of ongoing efforts to re-launch peace negotiations.''

On Thursday, Rami Hamdallah, the Palestinian prime minister, said the plan to build the settlements was "killing the two state solution".

The continued building of Israeli settlements lies at the heart of an impasse over restarting negotiations on the terms of a Palestinian state alongside Israel.

The Palestinians hope to build their state in the West Bank, Gaza and east Jerusalem, lands Israel occupied in 1967.

The United States is currently trying to get the long dormant peace talks back on track but the Palestinians say they will not return to the negotiating table as long as Israeli settlement construction continues.

Also on Friday, unidentified vandals set two vehicles on fire in an Arab neighbourhood of Jerusalem, in what police say appears to be the latest attach carried out by Jewish extremists.

Police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld said the words "price tag" were found sprayed on a wall near the cars in Sheikh Jarrah.

The phrase is usually used by Jewish extremists to protest what they perceive to be the Israeli government's pro-Palestinian policies, and to let Palestinians know who attacked them.

Vandals have targeted mosques, churches, dovish Israeli groups and even Israeli military bases with "price tag" graffiti over the years.

In recent weeks, there has been a steady stream of such incidents, including an Arab Christian graveyard vandalised on Thursday and a Jerusalem church defaced two weeks ago.

Rosenfeld said police were searching for the perpetrators.
HockeyDad Offline
#36 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,192
(Reuters) - A 10-minute drive from where negotiators will sit down on Wednesday to resume long-stalled Middle East peace talks, Israeli bulldozers are busy reshaping land that Palestinians want for their future state.

Settler homes are popping up across East Jerusalem and major roads are being built to burgeoning Jewish settlements in the occupied West Bank. Israel has just approved plans for 3,100 new homes on the territory it seized in the 1967 Middle East war.

The non-stop building on the land that is at the heart of the conflict raises serious doubts about whether the latest round of U.S.-brokered talks can result in a deal to create an independent Palestinian state alongside Israel.

"The two-state solution by now is unobtainable," said Dani Dayan, a former chairman of the settler movement, arguing that any accord palatable to the Palestinians would involve removing so many settlers that it would be impossible to enact.

U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry, the driving force behind the resumption of talks following a three-year hiatus, agrees it is a major problem, but says there is time for a final push.

"What this underscores is the importance of getting to the table, getting to the table quickly," he told reporters in Colombia on Monday when asked about the series of Israeli building announcements in the run-up to the new negotiations.

Israel has rejected criticism of its construction plans, saying the new homes would be erected in settlements within blocs it intends to keep in any future peace deal with the Palestinians.

The settler numbers are imposing. In 2010, when the Palestinians quit negotiations over settlement building, some 311,110 Israelis were living in the West Bank. Today, according to Israel's Army Radio, this has surged to 367,000.

Adding in East Jerusalem, then the number of Israelis living beyond the 1967 lines rises to nearly 600,000. Few, if any, would willingly quit their homes as part of a peace deal.

After an initial round of meetings in Washington at the end of last month, the real discussions start on Wednesday, with Israeli Justice Minister Tzipi Livni facing Palestinian chief negotiator Saeb Erekat in Jerusalem's King David Hotel.

The negotiations will be moderated by U.S. envoy Martin Indyk, with the next encounter already penciled in for later this month in the West Bank city of Jericho.

Bowing to a Palestinian condition to get the talks going, and eager not to antagonize an anxious Washington, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has agreed to the staggered release of 104 Palestinian prisoners, many convicted of murder.

The first 26 are due to go free early on Wednesday, and political analysts say the recent splurge of settlement moves was a bid by Netanyahu to placate his legion of supporters who reject the so-called two-state solution.

But the sheer quantity of planned new homes has stunned outsiders and led the Palestinians to issue a clear warning.

"If the Israeli government believes that every week they're going to cross a red line by settlement activity ... what they're advertising is the unsustainability of the negotiations," Erekat said on Sunday.

Kerry told reporters that while some movement on the settlement front had been expected, the wave of announcements may have been "outside of that level of expectation".

Daniel Seidemann, a lawyer and an expert on settlement expansion, said that in the last 24 hours, Israel had approved a 3.26 percent increase in the number of housing units in East Jerusalem alone, saying this could prove fatal to peace chances.

"I think Mr. Netanyahu may have miscalculated this. He won't shed any tears if the talks fall apart, but he will shed tears if he is blamed for this," he said.

Israeli and Palestinian negotiators have set a goal of reaching a peace deal within nine months that would resolve many problems confronting them, including agreeing to borders, the status of Jerusalem, the fate of Palestinian refugees and the sharing of scarce water resources.

While pessimists abound, a few optimists still stand up, including Israeli President Shimon Peres.

He argues that not only do Israelis want peace, but that the recent instability caused by the Arab uprisings has left a number of Arab states eager to settle the decades-old conflict.

"People who are skeptical are wrong. There is a difference between this and previous attempts," he said on Sunday.
frankj1 Offline
#37 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,252
Fact is that I, like many Jews in the USA, find these settlements to be abhorrent and intentionally provocative. I also believe that there is a long term strategy involved relating to eventual borders as it would be too capricioius (is that the word?) to be happening just to mess around for laughs. I still do not approve, they still do not care how I feel.

I also believe that none of this comes close to being as damaging to peace efforts as refusing to accept the legitimacy of Israel and refusing to take steps to ensure Israel's safety from attack. Simple, nothing can be a bigger issue than that.

To refuse to come to the table to accept land for your new country until your demands are met has the appearance of saying that said land for your country is not really what you want. Perhaps the not so hidden agenda is to rid the area of Israel? It is possible, I don't know for sure. But if so, then stalling talks ad nauseum makes sense from the Arab perspective.

None of this makes settlement construction palatable to me, but it's not why peace talks may end before they begin. If anything, Arabs should fast track the talks before they lose even more lfuture land.
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