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Last post 10 years ago by bloody spaniard. 18 replies replies.
How long can it be sustatined???
Abrignac Offline
#1 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,351
Debt and Destruction

Published on Oct 21, 2013

From April 1917 to November 1919, when Woodrow Wilson borrowed $30 billion to fight World War I, he was able to do so because of the promise he made to lenders that the commitment to repay them would be backed by the full faith and credit of the United States government. At the time, the government's total debt was about $14 billion; so Wilson's painful gambit trebled it.

In reality, it was not the full faith and credit of the federal government that promised to repay; it was not the credit worthiness of the federal government at stake; it was not the federal government that paid back the money that was borrowed. That's because the government has no credit or credit worthiness or disposable wealth. Only the taxpayers have that.

This is not an academic difference. Wilson knew his creditors could not seize government buildings if he or a successor could not repay the loans in a timely manner. But the IRS could seize private wealth if taxpayers didn't cough up. At the time, the federal income tax was new. In order to get it passed in Congress, Wilson promised that the tax rate on personal incomes would never exceed 3 percent of adjusted gross income, and that it would only be assessed on adjusted gross incomes north of $10,000 a year -- the rough equivalent of $250,000 today.

Wilson also had a brand-new bank with its own legal printing press at his disposal: the Federal Reserve. With its power, the Federal Reserve could print and lend all the cash it wanted, flood the economy with money, and cheapen the value of the dollar so that when Wilson's $30 billion debt was repaid, it would be done with dollars worth far less -- and thus less painful to extract from taxpayers -- than those he borrowed.

This is, of course, government-induced inflation. It was relatively new in Wilson's era, but it has been practiced by the Fed and accepted by every president from Wilson to Barack Obama. And it can be done without the consent of Congress because Congress already gave the Fed the unlimited power to print cash and lend it. Today, this is done without ink and paper; rather, by pressing a few computer keys.

So today, when the president wants to borrow more than the law allows, the Fed can provide the cash, but the president needs a change in the law so as to have the legal authority to commit as yet unborn taxpayers to repay the government's additional debt. While in office, Obama has borrowed about $1.2 trillion a year with the approval of Republicans as well as Democrats in Congress. The lenders are quick to make their loans, because the feds have never failed to extract the cash from taxpayers or borrow more in their names to pay the debt service. Presidents and Congresses don't worry about paying back the principal or paying the debt service, as long as they can continue to borrow more in order to do so.

As absurd as it sounds, the federal government borrows money in order to pay the debt service on money it has already borrowed and spent. Is it any wonder that today the government's debt has reached $17 trillion?

In his zeal to persuade Congress to let the government borrow another trillion dollars in the next nine months, Obama has stated that raising the debt ceiling will not add to the nation's debt. He is either willfully ignorant or Clintonesque in his use of misleading words. He knows the feds never have declined to borrow whatever they want, whenever they want it, up to the limit of their legal borrowing authority. And they have done so with their eyes on only immediate political needs, with disdain for the economic consequences and with contempt for the future.

But the future cannot sustain this much longer. The half-trillion dollars a year the feds now pay in debt service on present and ancient debt is equivalent to one-fifth of all the yearly revenue collected in taxes. And the $1.2 trillion the feds borrow and spend each year is the equivalent of half of all the yearly revenue collected in taxes. If the mindset of borrow and spend and damn the future persists, American society as we know it will collapse as taxpayers reach the tipping point beyond which it will no longer make sense to earn income.

Do you think this sounds apocalyptic? Think again. Nearly half of the taxpayers in America are there already. Why should they work, they no doubt reason, when the feds will continue to tax and borrow and transfer wealth to them.
The president and all congressional Democrats and most Senate Republicans and about half of the House Republicans want to continue this descent into an economic maelstrom, and they have demonized those brave House and Senate Republicans who have had enough of it. Many courageous congressional Republicans understand the harm the feds have done to the dollar, believe the government must stay within the confines of the Constitution and recognize that borrowing money in order to pay the interest on money already borrowed will lead to perdition -- and they are resisting it.

Obama says they are holding the Treasury hostage and demanding a ransom. He is wrong again. They are defending the dollar and the Constitution. He is saddling future generations with debt they will not be able to afford. He will turn the IRS into debt collectors for the Chinese government, which is the federal government's largest foreign creditor. The courageous House and Senate Republicans are standing athwart the progressive tidal wave and saying: STOP. I expect they will stand firm. When they do, they will be history's heroes.

As for Obama, I suspect he doesn't realize that since the principal of Wilson's $30 billion loan has yet to be repaid, the Treasury is still paying interest on it. Do you know anyone who consented to that?


http://www.judgenap.com/index.php?post=debt-and-destruction
DadZilla3 Offline
#2 Posted:
Joined: 01-17-2009
Posts: 4,633
Good article. Budgetary arguments nowadays between the Democrats and Republicans are a lot like the crew of the Titanic after they hit the iceberg, arguing about the arrangement of the deck chairs.

Like Ayn Rand put it...'You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality.'
bloody spaniard Offline
#3 Posted:
Joined: 03-14-2003
Posts: 43,802
Yes, very nice article and couldn't agree with you more, Dad. This should have been dealt with over a decade ago.
I would say that the shiite will hit the fan as soon as interest rates rise, possibly as early as 2014 or 2015 but definitely before Obama's disastrous 2nd term ends.
rfenst Offline
#4 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,394
Article? No, OpEd. Short on facts and long on assertions that I would have liked to have seen footnotes for. Reads well, and takes a long time to say: national debt is bad; IRS taxes too much; and the U.S is/will suffer in the future.
DadZilla3 Offline
#5 Posted:
Joined: 01-17-2009
Posts: 4,633
rfenst wrote:
Article? No, OpEd. Short on facts and long on assertions that I would have liked to have seen footnotes for. Reads well, and takes a long time to say: national debt is bad; IRS taxes too much; and the U.S is/will suffer in the future.

'National debt is bad; IRS taxes too much; and the U.S is/will suffer in the future' are indeed facts, not assertions.
Abrignac Offline
#6 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,351
rfenst wrote:
Article? No, OpEd. Short on facts and long on assertions that I would have liked to have seen footnotes for. Reads well, and takes a long time to say: national debt is bad; IRS taxes too much; and the U.S is/will suffer in the future.


With interest rates on Fed borrowing at about 1/4 of their historic average and current debt service consumes about 1/4 of revenue, does one need anymore explanation? Simple math would reveal that if interest rise a couple points one or a combination of a few very bad consequences will occur.
rfenst Offline
#7 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,394
Abrignac wrote:
With interest rates on Fed borrowing at about 1/4 of their historic average and current debt service consumes about 1/4 of revenue, does one need anymore explanation? Simple math would reveal that if interest rise a couple points one or a combination of a few very bad consequences will occur.


Very bad consequences like what? Another recession or inflation/hyper-inflation? Doesn't require an article or sage to know that.
HockeyDad Offline
#8 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,179
rfenst wrote:
Very bad consequences like what? Another recession or inflation/hyper-inflation? Doesn't require an article or sage to know that.



Well then I guess the problem is solved.
Abrignac Offline
#9 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,351
rfenst wrote:
Very bad consequences like what? Another recession or inflation/hyper-inflation? Doesn't require an article or sage to know that.


You're correct. Nothing to see here. May as well lock the doors and go home.
cacman Offline
#10 Posted:
Joined: 07-03-2010
Posts: 12,216
If you ran a business the same way the government runs, you'd be bankrupt and living in a cardboard box.

Walk into a bank with the same debt-ratio the government has and ask to borrow more money to pay for what you've already overspent, and they'll laugh hysterically and heckle you as you walk out the door with nothing.
HockeyDad Offline
#11 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,179
cacman wrote:
If you ran a business the same way the government runs, you'd be bankrupt and living in a cardboard box.

Walk into a bank with the same debt-ratio the government has and ask to borrow more money to pay for what you've already overspent, and they'll laugh hysterically and heckle you as you walk out the door with nothing.



Try it again after threatening the bank with complete destruction with cruise missiles. You'll get your loan.
Gene363 Offline
#12 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,859

And the beat goes on... and people keep believing the lies flowing out of Obama's mouth.

They better hope future generations don't figure out a way to come back and kick their collective a s s es.
horse horse horse
DrafterX Offline
#13 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,571
the immediate future generation will be in control of da death panels.... Mellow
DrafterX Offline
#14 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,571
HockeyDad wrote:
Try it again after threatening the bank with complete destruction with cruise missiles. You'll get your loan.



damn.. I'm all out of cruise missiles.. d'oh!
Gene363 Offline
#15 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,859
DrafterX wrote:
the immediate future generation will be in control of da death panels.... Mellow


And pick rest homes too.
d'oh!
DrafterX Offline
#16 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,571
there ain't no rest for da wicked.... Not talking
DadZilla3 Offline
#17 Posted:
Joined: 01-17-2009
Posts: 4,633
DrafterX wrote:
damn.. I'm all out of cruise missiles.. d'oh!

Did you try looking on Craigslist?
bloody spaniard Offline
#18 Posted:
Joined: 03-14-2003
Posts: 43,802
What we waiting fer? Why put off the inevitable? Let the looting and razing begin... once we get financing for the molotov cocktails.
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