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Last post 10 years ago by Gene363. 30 replies replies.
Supreme court to rule on contraceptives/Obamacare
gryphonms Offline
#1 Posted:
Joined: 04-14-2013
Posts: 1,983
Get this government out of my life. Socialism/Communism it's getting real blurry. If a privately held business does not want to pay for contraceptives based on their religious beliefs why should they have to? If some employee does not like that it's their right to work else where. Big brother get out of our lives.
ZRX1200 Offline
#2 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,617
If only we had more people asking questions abd not having opinions, this would never happen.


I'm OUTRAGED mildly.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#3 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,448
Taxman is the real thief...Whistle
cacman Offline
#4 Posted:
Joined: 07-03-2010
Posts: 12,216
There's no such thing as a privately held business any longer. The guberment dictates how you have to run your business, whom you have to serve, and the salary you as the business owner are required to take. Then they want more taxes on top of that to pay for those that don't work or have any interest in getting off the guberment's teat. It's for the good of everyone.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#5 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,448
cacman wrote:
There's no such thing as a privately held business any longer. The guberment dictates how you have to run your business, whom you have to serve, and the salary you as the business owner are required to take. Then they want more taxes on top of that to pay for those that don't work or have any interest in getting off the guberment's teat. It's for the good of everyone.



If there was ever any doubt...look at the car dealerships that were forced to close!
gryphonms Offline
#6 Posted:
Joined: 04-14-2013
Posts: 1,983
Zrx, can't you keep your opinions to yourself?

When you don't you are mildly amusing.
scompay Offline
#7 Posted:
Joined: 04-17-2010
Posts: 1,721
gryphonms wrote:
Get this government out of my life. Socialism/Communism it's getting real blurry. If a privately held business does not want to pay for contraceptives based on their religious beliefs why should they have to? If some employee does not like that it's their right to work else where. Big brother get out of our lives.



May i ask the question is reverse. Why would someone go into business, knowing they had to hire queers and that was against their beliefs.


Private business is an oxymoron. There is no such thing in a free economy. The premise of a business is opening your doors to all.


See the real problem is that they want to double-dip. They can be just a church, which doesnt have to provide health insurance nor contraceptives. But what the sneaky devils want to do is be a non-taxable 'business'. Thats where the whole problem comes in.
ZRX1200 Offline
#8 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,617
Message Trish and have her audit my account pumpkin.
gryphonms Offline
#9 Posted:
Joined: 04-14-2013
Posts: 1,983
All joking aside, I would not do that.
ZRX1200 Offline
#10 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,617
Scum the feds decided tax exempt status was a great way around religious freedoms. Watch out who you blame.
gryphonms Offline
#11 Posted:
Joined: 04-14-2013
Posts: 1,983
S, I do not see this as a descriminatory act. I see it as an infringement of religious freedom. On this issue I think we will have to agree to disagree.
ZRX1200 Offline
#12 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,617
Of course it is, do you not see what both parties are doing?

Centralize power and infringe. When (rarely) told no by the SCOTUS there are no consequences. And the lemmings have hitched themselves to single issue interests their party claims to fight for. Or has their financial, health and imcome based off these pillars of deceit.

Welcome to Amerika comrade, try the cabbage.
gryphonms Offline
#13 Posted:
Joined: 04-14-2013
Posts: 1,983
I'm 11 I was speaking about the private business when stating they were not being descriminatory. I was speaking about the government infringing on religious freedoms. My bad if that was not clear.
victor809 Offline
#14 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
I'm not sure any of you really understand what socialism/communism is. This is not it, not even close... not even really moving in that direction.

Lets set my personal preference aside for a moment (if you care, it's that every single person be sterilized... allow it to be reversed after they get a signed note from me).

Do we really want to have more lower income people getting accidentally pregnant than we currently have? I mean, if their decision on whether or not to take birth control pills is dictated by whether it's covered by their insurance... THEN THEY'RE TOO DAMN POOR TO AFFORD A KID AND WE SHOULD BE DOING EVERYTHING IN OUR POWER TO KEEP THEM FROM HAVING ONE!!!!!

While I'm usually pretty pro - whatever people want to do is fine... this is a case where the costs to society (another dumb, uneducated, poor, likely to end up homeless and sh@tting in the alleyway so I have to smell it when I go to get my car from the valet, costing me tax money because my damn city wants to feed them waste of resources) far outweighs some ridiculous crafting company's finer sensibilities.
Abrignac Offline
#15 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,281
victor809 wrote:
I'm not sure any of you really understand what socialism/communism is. This is not it, not even close... not even really moving in that direction.

Lets set my personal preference aside for a moment (if you care, it's that every single person be sterilized... allow it to be reversed after they get a signed note from me).

Do we really want to have more lower income people getting accidentally pregnant than we currently have? I mean, if their decision on whether or not to take birth control pills is dictated by whether it's covered by their insurance... THEN THEY'RE TOO DAMN POOR TO AFFORD A KID AND WE SHOULD BE DOING EVERYTHING IN OUR POWER TO KEEP THEM FROM HAVING ONE!!!!!

While I'm usually pretty pro - whatever people want to do is fine... this is a case where the costs to society (another dumb, uneducated, poor, likely to end up homeless and sh@tting in the alleyway so I have to smell it when I go to get my car from the valet, costing me tax money because my damn city wants to feed them waste of resources) far outweighs some ridiculous crafting company's finer sensibilities.


Applause Applause Applause

But, where do your rights end and mine begin. For that matter why are we in the business of telling others what to do?
DrafterX Offline
#16 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,555
Abrignac wrote:
Applause Applause Applause

But, where do your rights end and mine begin. For that matter why are we in the business of telling others what to do?



Go make me a sammich..!! Mad
scompay Offline
#17 Posted:
Joined: 04-17-2010
Posts: 1,721
Abrignac wrote:
Applause Applause Applause

But, where do your rights end and mine begin. For that matter why are we in the business of telling others what to do?


I dont understand this argument about only communist tell their people what to do. I am beginning to think they have more freedom.

No one calls the DOT the red party when they tell us what speed to drive.
teedubbya Offline
#18 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
I worship the latex god and think all my employees must wear a whole body condom at all times.

By the way we are talking insurance coverage here no? Not that the employer has to keep a store room full of em. My insurance will be to cover the abortions if the condom fails. Kids distrupt business.
victor809 Offline
#19 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
Abrignac wrote:


But, where do your rights end and mine begin.

My rights never end, and yours never begin. Problem solved. :)
teedubbya Offline
#20 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
I think organ transplants are immoral therefore I don't want my insurance to pay for it
Abrignac Offline
#21 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,281
scompay wrote:
I dont understand


No surprise......
victor809 Offline
#22 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
As an aside...
While an owner of a company can be religious, can a company express a particular religion? I mean, I know they're people and all, but how does it say what religion it is? If a company is a "Sole Proprietorship", sure... but once a company owner divests themselves from the company to reduce their personal liability (in case the company does something bad... since it's an individual), then it seems a little bit disingenuous to then claim that the company (as an "INC" or "LLC" or "LLP") must have the same religious views you do...(I mean, hey! it's an individual!... it's got it's own hopes and dreams, maybe it always wanted to be an artist. Who are you to tell it what to do! YOU'RE NOT ITS REAL FATHER!!!!!) Hell, if it has shareholders, I think you may as well give up completely.
scompay Offline
#23 Posted:
Joined: 04-17-2010
Posts: 1,721
victor809 wrote:
As an aside...
While an owner of a company can be religious, can a company express a particular religion? I mean, I know they're people and all, but how does it say what religion it is? If a company is a "Sole Proprietorship", sure... but once a company owner divests themselves from the company to reduce their personal liability (in case the company does something bad... since it's an individual), then it seems a little bit disingenuous to then claim that the company (as an "INC" or "LLC" or "LLP") must have the same religious views you do...(I mean, hey! it's an individual!... it's got it's own hopes and dreams, maybe it always wanted to be an artist. Who are you to tell it what to do! YOU'RE NOT ITS REAL FATHER!!!!!) Hell, if it has shareholders, I think you may as well give up completely.


Bingo. A corporation or business can only have the identity of the national laws. Dont like it, try to change the national laws or go do business in Afghanistan where the national laws suit your business.

Think of this country and constitution as a Mall, where shopkeepers have to abide by the Mall's policy- regardless of their business classification and personal beliefs.
8trackdisco Offline
#24 Posted:
Joined: 11-06-2004
Posts: 60,082
Always found it strange that Republicans are anti abortion and Democrats are for them.

Republicans are trying to create Democrats, while Democrats dedicated to killing their own.

Weird world.
victor809 Offline
#25 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
8trackdisco wrote:
Always found it strange that Republicans are anti abortion and Democrats are for them.

Republicans are trying to create Democrats, while Democrats dedicated to killing their own.

Weird world.


Probably practicality.
Democrats want to provide assistance to anyone who's having trouble making it.... if you've got that motto, you should probably make sure you minimize the number of people who may fit in that pool.
Republicans don't want to provide assistance to anyone... therefore they've got no incentive to minimize the pool of people who need help.

I'm practical. Minimize the number of people in all pools other than mine. And don't help any that made it through...
Gene363 Offline
#26 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,822

Birth control is such a BS issue, it doesn't cost that much and the insurance company would likely throw it in for free since it would save them money in the long run.

Just wait until the death panels, oh, care planning and allocation panels start condemning people to die rather than get more help.
victor809 Offline
#27 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
Gene363 wrote:

Birth control is such a BS issue, it doesn't cost that much and the insurance company would likely throw it in for free since it would save them money in the long run.

Just wait until the death panels, oh, care planning and allocation panels start condemning people to die rather than get more help.


That's a red herring.

The idea exists already outside of any government insurance. Hell, it exists outside of insurance. We're trying to get some surgery for my mother, but because of substantial complications etc, etc, we're unable to find a dr willing to do it. And this is with a high-end work based insurance plan. Decisions will always be made regarding whether it's worthwhile to perform specific procedures on people who are already severely ailing. You may want to call it a "death panel", but it isn't new.
teedubbya Offline
#28 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
The insurance companies I worked for didn't seem to give much away for free.

Bs flag. 15 yard penalty
DrMaddVibe Offline
#29 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,448

Supreme Court Women Raise Questions on Contraception Coverage


Justices Kagan, Sotomayor and Ginsburg aggressively questioned the corporate challengers who want exemptions from providing contraception under Obamacare at Tuesday's oral arguments. Hobby Lobby and Conestoga Wood Specialties say the measure violates their religious freedoms

The three women of the Supreme Court dominated questioning at the beginning of Tuesday’s oral arguments in a case pitting religious business owners against the new health care reform law’s mandate that employer-provided insurance cover contraceptive care.

The court case will determine whether Hobby Lobby, a Christian-owned craft store chain, and Conestoga Wood Specialties, a cabinet company, can be exempted from providing contraception coverage to female employees through federally mandated health insurance policies.

Supreme Court proceedings make for notoriously difficult and unreliable predictors of how justices might rule on a case. That said, Justices Sonia Sotomayor, Elena Kagan, and Ruth Bader Ginsburg wasted no time in pressing the corporate challengers, according to the Wall Street Journal‘s live blog of the oral arguments.

Justice Sotomayor started by asking, if corporations can object on religious grounds to providing contraception coverage, could they also object to vaccinations or blood transfusions? Paul Clement, the lawyer representing the challengers, said that contraception is different, because the government has already given an exemption to religious nonprofits. Justice Kagan then said that there are several medical treatments to which some religious groups object, and if corporations could object to providing coverage for those treatments, “everything would be piecemeal. Nothing would be uniform.”

Much of the challengers’ argument is centered on the Religious Freedom Restoration Act of 1993, which is aimed at preventing laws that substantially limit a person’s religious freedom. The law grew out of a conflict over whether two Native Americans could be dismissed from their jobs as drug counselors for using drugs in a religious ritual. The architects of the law said they intended it to be a protection of religious rights, not an excuse to foist religious principles on others.

Justice Ginsberg said it “seems strange” that the Religious Freedom Restoration Act, which was passed by both parties, could have generated such support if lawmakers thought corporations would use it to enforce their own religious beliefs.

Justice Kagan added that the corporate challengers are taking an “uncontroversial law” like the Religious Freedom Restoration Act and making it into something that would upend “the entire U.S. code,” since companies would be able to object on religious grounds to laws on sex discrimination, minimum wage, family leave and child labor.

Other points made by the female justices:
•Justice Sotomayor: how can courts know whether a corporation holds a religious belief? And what if it’s just the beliefs of the leadership, not the entire company? What happens to a non-religious minority in a corporation?

Justice Sotomayor and Justice Kagan asked: Because nobody is forcing Hobby Lobby or Conestoga to provide health insurance, they can simply pay the tax penalty instead.

•Justice Kagan: women are “quite tangibly harmed” when employers don’t provide contraceptive coverage.


http://time.com/#37055/supreme-court-women-dominate-arguments-on-contraception-coverage/
Gene363 Offline
#30 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,822
victor809 wrote:
That's a red herring.

The idea exists already outside of any government insurance. Hell, it exists outside of insurance. We're trying to get some surgery for my mother, but because of substantial complications etc, etc, we're unable to find a dr willing to do it. And this is with a high-end work based insurance plan. Decisions will always be made regarding whether it's worthwhile to perform specific procedures on people who are already severely ailing. You may want to call it a "death panel", but it isn't new.



I hope you can find the care she need.

It isn't a 'red herring' except that proponents of government funded medical care don't want to talk about the reality of public funding of medical care, make that tax payer funded medical coverage. There will be limitations on the level of care many people will receive and more importantly not receive. If we allow medical care to be taken over by the government you will not have many, if any options.

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