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fiddler898 Offline
#51 Posted: Thu, Apr 9 2015, 7:19 AM EST
Joined: 06-15-2009
Posts: 3,782
I should really hang around the politics forum more often. It apparently contains entire schools of theology I never came across in seminary.

I wonder how many CEUs this qualifies for?
MACS Offline
#52 Posted: Thu, Apr 9 2015, 7:54 AM EST
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,833
“God maintains a delicate balance between keeping his existence sufficiently evident so people will know he's there and yet hiding his presence enough so that people who want to choose to ignore him can do it. This way, their choice of destiny is really free.”

“If you were to force people to do something against their free choice, you would be dehumanizing them. The option of forcing everyone to go to heaven is immoral, because it's dehumanizing; it strips them of the dignity of making their own decision; it denies them their freedom of choice; and it treats them as a means to an end. When God allows people to say 'no' to him, he actually respects and dignifies them.”

- J.P. Moreland

I found these two quotes of his very thought provoking.
DrafterX Offline
#53 Posted: Thu, Apr 9 2015, 8:08 AM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,564
Do you know what they call a Quarter-Pounder with cheese in France..?? Mellow
tailgater Offline
#54 Posted: Thu, Apr 9 2015, 8:22 AM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
For the record.
This is all the gays fault. They weren't satisfied with a civil union. It HAD to be called marriage.
I've discussed this before, but they are their own worst enemies at times.
The religious right is a huge and powerful and often immobile beast. They need to be pulled into accepting new ideas, not pushed. The gay community has shown that acceptance is not enough. They demand to be embraced. Equal doesn't always mean same. The gays got hung up on the word marriage. This is what happens and regardless of which viewpoint you have you shouldn't be surprised.
DrafterX Offline
#55 Posted: Thu, Apr 9 2015, 8:29 AM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,564
Bigot... Mellow
DrafterX Offline
#56 Posted: Thu, Apr 9 2015, 8:33 AM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,564
just kiddin of course... Mellow
frankj1 Offline
#57 Posted: Thu, Apr 9 2015, 8:40 AM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,228
fiddler898 wrote:
I should really hang around the politics forum more often. It apparently contains entire schools of theology I never came across in seminary.

I wonder how many CEUs this qualifies for?

don't worry, I was covering for you while you were out. I grew up across the street from the Andover-Newton Theological Seminary, figured that qualifies me...
















yeah, sorry about that.
fiddler898 Offline
#58 Posted: Thu, Apr 9 2015, 9:36 AM EST
Joined: 06-15-2009
Posts: 3,782
frankj1 wrote:
don't worry, I was covering for you while you were out. I grew up across the street from the Andover-Newton Theological Seminary, figured that qualifies me...
















yeah, sorry about that.



That explains your complete lack of orthodoxy. Refreshing, really.
ZRX1200 Offline
#59 Posted: Thu, Apr 9 2015, 10:13 AM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,628
Yes Frank is like a Summerbreeze.....

Frank I can't pass up a feminine hygiene joke sorry.
DrafterX Offline
#60 Posted: Thu, Apr 9 2015, 10:19 AM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,564
The summer wind,
came blowin' in
from across the sea.... Whistle
victor809 Offline
#61 Posted: Thu, Apr 9 2015, 11:05 AM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
Abrignac wrote:
Victor, you are arguing simply for argument's sake and are completely missing the point.

You are trying to apply the scientific process to a completely unprovable point. You are looking for rationality where none exists. Since you know none exists you assume the premise is false. That's what scientists do.

Religion is the complete opposite. There is no tangible proof of a higher being. People of faith, be it Christians, Jews, Muslims, etc... have faith that the teachings are true. But, at the end of the day it's entirely subjective and people will believe what they have faith in.


Of course I'm arguing simply for argument's sake. This is a cigar forum, I don't think anyone has ever changed their mind based off any of the stuff posted here. If no one is going to change their mind, then everyone is literally arguing simply for argument's sake.

But you still mistake my argument for being against religion (or at least I think you do)... while I am against religion, that's not a point I'm trying to make. I am simply asking for internal consistency within their religious beliefs. If someone's religion says something is "the worst sin ever" and another sin is just briefly mentioned in passing, I'd like to see those sins treated in a manner consistent with their religious importance.

What we see these days is a heightened awareness of something the bible barely mentioned. As such, it's become a political flash point, and people are twisting their religion around so that they can have a fit about the smallest parts of it... for how upset they are about gay marriage, some of these christians really should start burning infidels at the stake or something to keep internally consistent with their religion.
Gene363 Offline
#62 Posted: Thu, Apr 9 2015, 11:26 AM EST
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,844
victor809 wrote:
Ok, so this "Religious Liberty" thing has been rattling around in my head a little bit. Mainly because there are things I find disagreeable on both sides.

But here's the problem I keep getting stuck against, something that I can't wrap my head around.

Lets say you're a sandwich shop owner... and you're a Mormon. You do not believe in drinking beer, or drinking caffeine, all that dumb stuff Mormons believe. If you're asked to cater an event in which things are going on which are against your belief... are your religious liberties actually being violated? Does being in a room where someone is drinking beer actually cause you to go to hell? Is being in a room where someone else is drinking coffee actually a sin in those religious tracts? If one can be in a room where people are drinking beer, drinking coffee, not having multiple wives... then why can't one be in a room where people are getting gay married?

This is what keeps sticking. No one in any of this has asked a florist, or a baker or a candlestick maker to get gay married. They just have to be in the same room as something occurring which is theoretically something they believe is against their religion. People do that all the time... but because gay marriage is some sort of LEGAL hot button issue (note, a LEGAL term is not a religious tract...these are two separate ideas), people seem to be focused on this.

So exactly what are "religious liberty" laws supposed to protect a person from? Their religious beliefs aren't being violated.

The only instance where I can see a person's religious beliefs actually being violated might be if you ask a Hindi to butcher a cow for you or something. But hey... I'm willing to at least hear what the biddies here want to say.


Personal experience close to your LDS example: When one of my sons was getting married I spoke with a friend a knew that has a catering business about doing the rehearsal party. Right up front she asked if there would be alcohol served. Since the answer was yes, she declined the job. She explained her husband was a strict baptist and dealing with alcohol was a problem. My response was OK, I understand and I found another company to do the job.

Protection should go to all, if an atheist baker didn't want to make a confirmation cake they shouldn't have to make one.
ZRX1200 Offline
#63 Posted: Thu, Apr 9 2015, 11:39 AM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,628
Yup. Freedom is scary for those who like exercising their right to outrage though.
demandred Offline
#64 Posted: Thu, Apr 9 2015, 12:04 PM EST
Joined: 09-27-2014
Posts: 3
victor809 wrote: ".... And by that logic I would expect that the same florist then denies service to any jewish weddings, muslim weddings, atheist weddings etc? I mean, not believing in your christian god (or believing in a different god altogether) one of the big daddy sins there isn't it? "

No. Christians, Jews, and Muslims all have the same God. They disagree in the details of worship, belief in Christ as the messiah, etc... As for athiests, well that is an opportunity to testify.

And as someone else already stated, if a sinner comes in, announces his sin and is asking to make a purchase in support of said sin, then a morally inclined person would refuse service. This is akin to actual law. For example of guilt by association: Many times you have seen a person convicted of murder who's only role was being there when it happened and keeping the secret. Likewise, the driver in a bank heist is guilty of the heist as much as the people who entered the vault. The person hiring the hit man is also guilty of murder, etc...

To bring it back to retail: Selling a firearm to a person that states they plan to use it in the commission of a crime, is a crime in itself and that seller could be held as accessory to the crime in a real court of law.
victor809 Offline
#65 Posted: Thu, Apr 9 2015, 12:26 PM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
demandred wrote:
victor809 wrote: ".... And by that logic I would expect that the same florist then denies service to any jewish weddings, muslim weddings, atheist weddings etc? I mean, not believing in your christian god (or believing in a different god altogether) one of the big daddy sins there isn't it? "

No. Christians, Jews, and Muslims all have the same God. They disagree in the details of worship, belief in Christ as the messiah, etc... As for athiests, well that is an opportunity to testify.

And as someone else already stated, if a sinner comes in, announces his sin and is asking to make a purchase in support of said sin, then a morally inclined person would refuse service. This is akin to actual law. For example of guilt by association: Many times you have seen a person convicted of murder who's only role was being there when it happened and keeping the secret. Likewise, the driver in a bank heist is guilty of the heist as much as the people who entered the vault. The person hiring the hit man is also guilty of murder, etc...

To bring it back to retail: Selling a firearm to a person that states they plan to use it in the commission of a crime, is a crime in itself and that seller could be held as accessory to the crime in a real court of law.


You make some good points, but I think you dismissed the non-christian wedding example a little too quickly. Even if you want to lump christians, jews and muslims all in with the same god, that wasn't a finite list... hindis, buddhists etc don't worship the same god. And even if it's the same god, but different "details of worship", I'm willing to bet there's a few sins in those details....

I agree with your analogy regarding the firearm sale, etc. I think it's a fair analogy. But like I said, when this is applied to religion, which is very rarely black and white, you end up going down a weird rabbit hole. If someone is absolutely consistent within their religious beliefs, I certainly have a great deal more respect for their decisions regarding that (ie, if they refuse to cater a gay wedding, refusing to cater a hindi wedding, an atheist wedding ("opportunity to convert is a bs out, they are performing a ceremony which the person believes is defined by their god, in a manner that doesn't align, it would be an equivalent sin")... and along with that being equally vigilant about every other sin in the bible and their interaction with sinners).

But I'm not gonna hold my breath on that one. :)
HockeyDad Offline
#66 Posted: Thu, Apr 9 2015, 12:33 PM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,164
Gene363 wrote:
Personal experience close to your LDS example: When one of my sons was getting married I spoke with a friend a knew that has a catering business about doing the rehearsal party. Right up front she asked if there would be alcohol served. Since the answer was yes, she declined the job. She explained her husband was a strict baptist and dealing with alcohol was a problem. My response was OK, I understand and I found another company to do the job.

Protection should go to all, if an atheist baker didn't want to make a confirmation cake they shouldn't have to make one.



Maybe you can still sue them. (but that would be more than a little gay)
DrafterX Offline
#67 Posted: Thu, Apr 9 2015, 12:38 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,564
damn Baptists... Mad
Gene363 Offline
#68 Posted: Thu, Apr 9 2015, 1:41 PM EST
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,844
HockeyDad wrote:
Maybe you can still sue them. (but that would be more than a little gay)


Prolly, I'm not the suing type and it was a starter marriage anyway. Beer
frankj1 Offline
#69 Posted: Thu, Apr 9 2015, 6:11 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,228
ZRX1200 wrote:
Yes Frank is like a Summerbreeze.....

Frank I can't pass up a feminine hygiene joke sorry.

easy for you to joke, you're upwind.
Speyside Offline
#70 Posted: Thu, Apr 9 2015, 7:10 PM EST
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
Just as long as you do not smell like gefilte fish.
frankj1 Offline
#71 Posted: Thu, Apr 9 2015, 7:19 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,228
Speyside wrote:
Just as long as you do not smell like gefilte fish.

hence the Summer's Eve. I use horseradish scented.



How many times did you pass on the gefilte fish in a previous life Allen?
Speyside Offline
#72 Posted: Thu, Apr 9 2015, 7:40 PM EST
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
Regularly.
Speyside Offline
#73 Posted: Thu, Apr 9 2015, 7:44 PM EST
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
I think I tried it twice.
themunmypaw Offline
#74 Posted: Thu, Apr 9 2015, 7:46 PM EST
Joined: 12-26-2014
Posts: 661
Why don't they just make the law so you just don't serve what you're not comfortable serving? Religious or not. Whether it's a Christian not being comfortable around two men being married, or an atheist not being comfortable delivering sandwiches to an orgy in a retirement home. I think that would make the whole thing alot easier to..... swallow.
frankj1 Offline
#75 Posted: Thu, Apr 9 2015, 7:51 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,228
I know you may not mean it, but you might be suggesting to legalize discrimination.

we are all discriminating, but we can not legally discriminate...in general...with some exceptions...wait, I gotta read the thread again.
victor809 Offline
#76 Posted: Thu, Apr 9 2015, 8:58 PM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
themunmypaw wrote:
or an atheist not being comfortable delivering sandwiches to an orgy in a retirement home. I.


Pshh... show me an atheist who isn't comfortable with retirement home orgies and I'll show you a closeted christian.
tailgater Offline
#77 Posted: Fri, Apr 10 2015, 8:25 AM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
^
Best
Post
Evah

Buckwheat Offline
#78 Posted: Thu, Apr 16 2015, 8:25 AM EST
Joined: 04-15-2004
Posts: 12,251
Fine. I'm the head waiter. This is a vegetarian restaurant only, we serve no animal flesh of any kind. We're not only proud of that, we're smug about it. So if you were to come in here asking me to rip open a small defenseless chicken, so you could chew its skin and eat its intestines, then I'm afraid I'd have to ask you to leave.

Likewise if you were to ask us to slice the sides off a cow and serve it with small pieces of its liver or indeed drain the life blood from a pig before cutting off one of its legs... or carve the living giblets from a sheep and serve them with the fresh brains, bowels, guts and spleen of a small rabbit... WE WOULDN'T DO IT.

Not for food anyway.

And that's all I have to say. Beer
Speyside Offline
#79 Posted: Thu, Apr 16 2015, 9:01 AM EST
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
^ Bad analogy, vegiterian restaurants have no meat on the menu or in back. Bakers make wedding cakes. Your analogy is inaccurate.
DrafterX Offline
#80 Posted: Thu, Apr 16 2015, 11:33 AM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,564
saw a video of some people eating monkey brains once... Mellow
tonygraz Offline
#81 Posted: Fri, Apr 17 2015, 12:47 PM EST
Joined: 08-11-2008
Posts: 20,288
dup. post.
tonygraz Offline
#82 Posted: Fri, Apr 17 2015, 12:49 PM EST
Joined: 08-11-2008
Posts: 20,288
TMCTLT wrote:
That's how MI. is set up as well Anthony, here in IN. NO Sunday sales....period. Comes up on the ballot virtually every year and every year they vote it DOWN....fog


Seems like IN has lots of problems involving religion and bigotry.
tonygraz Offline
#83 Posted: Fri, Apr 17 2015, 12:53 PM EST
Joined: 08-11-2008
Posts: 20,288
victor809 wrote:
Pshh... show me an atheist who isn't comfortable with retirement home orgies and I'll show you a closeted christian.


LOL
JadeRose Offline
#84 Posted: Sun, Apr 19 2015, 1:50 PM EST
Joined: 05-15-2008
Posts: 19,525
HockeyDad wrote:
Maybe "Thou shall not be a homo" was #11 and that was on the 3rd tablet that Moses dropped.




Along with "Thou Shalt find CROS"




Poor CROS.......
teedubbya Offline
#85 Posted: Mon, Apr 20 2015, 8:28 AM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
I heard the sign of the CROS is a crippled up hand accompanied by guttural random sounds.
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