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Last post 21 years ago by [email protected]. 18 replies replies.
WHATAREWE BECOMING WITH him
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#1 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248


Posted on Mon, Aug. 12, 2002





Distressing assaults on the principle of checks and balances






The Bush administration has embarked on a dangerous course in rejecting the authority of the
federal courts over certain cases related to the war on terrorism. Nothing could undermine that
war more quickly than a constitutional crisis brought on by arrogance in the executive branch.



The administration's haphazard arrests, detentions of people for extended periods without
charges, excessive secrecy and other troubling practices already have raised serious concerns
and left government officials sounding at times like apologists for a banana republic.


Some administration officials talk as if they can't quite grasp such basics of American
jurisprudence as the presumption of innocence. Others seek to obscure facts with semantic
quibbles.



Last month the administration's detention policies and obfuscations brought a particularly strong
protest from Warren Christopher, President Bill Clinton's sober-minded secretary of state.



"I'll never forget going to Argentina and seeing the mothers marching in the streets asking for the
names of those being held by the government," Christopher recalled. "We must be very careful in
this country about taking people into custody without revealing their names."


But such warnings have fallen on deaf ears in the White House and at John Ashcroft's Justice
Department.



The administration's mistakes and dubious legal positions have resulted in a long string of
embarrassments in the courtroom. Judges have repeatedly expressed skepticism over the
administration's detention policies.



Now an American Bar Association task force has criticized the administration for jailing enemy
combatants without charges or access to attorneys. This week the association will decide whether
to taken an official stand on the use of enemy-combatant status for some detainees.


Some of the government's explanations for its restrictions on civil rights don't make sense. Secret
detentions, for example, could hardly keep terrorist groups from figuring out that some of their
members had been jailed

.

Early this month the government received another sharp rebuke, this time from U.S. District Judge
Gladys Kessler. She ordered the government to release -- with certain possible exceptions -- the
names of the people detained since last September's terrorist attacks.


"Secret arrests," the judge wrote, "are a concept odious to a democratic society." Administration
officials should be humiliated by this lecture.



Yet only a few days after Kessler's ruling, the administration, unchastened, ignored a request from
another federal judge to present evidence concerning a prisoner -- reportedly an American citizen
-- who had been labeled an "enemy combatant" and held without charges.


The administration has mistakenly argued that this label and the subsequent denial of basic legal
rights are subject to only limited review, if any, by the courts. Similarly, the administration has
sought to undermine the authority of the judicial branch to review the questionable handling of
certain immigration cases.



The administration seems to be challenging the system of checks and balances, which has
served the nation well.



Americans have long agreed that the courts have the responsibility to interpret the Constitution.
The administration is on thin ice with its irresponsible suggestions that the terrorist challenge
somehow frees it from judicial review.



The United States should vigorously defend itself against our terrorist adversaries. It must do so,
however, without abandoning traditional American concepts about civil rights, the rule of law and
the limits of executive power.






cwilhelmi Offline
#2 Posted:
Joined: 07-24-2001
Posts: 2,739
here here rick! What are we becoming with GWB?? Not what I aspire for this great country to be!!!
banshee Offline
#3 Posted:
Joined: 07-12-2002
Posts: 10
I am concerned about the practice of holding any prisoner without releasing their name. It is, in my mind, a question of fundamental fairness. As the self proclaimed poster child for democratic principles and the standard barer for freedom whenever we violate the spirit of those ideals we subject ourselves to the cynical criticism of the anti American faction. Having said that, history teaches us that in times of war the release of that information is not without danger. Timing is everything. The expeditious release of names keys the enemy as to what intelligence we might be expected to have gleaned from our prisoners. By withholding that information for a while our enemy remains uncertain which of their combatants are dead and which are prisoners. This creates confusion as they consider what plans to change and what new plans to make. It is also not uncommon for the enemy to literally hold the family of a prisoner hostage as a safeguard against the release of information. Without being privy to the information our government has it is difficult to access when the time is ripe to release those names. I must admit though that it does seem that sufficient time has gone by to minimize concern about those wartime principles. As a proud American I pray that our government makes a reasoned and just decision based on the information they have. Perhaps it is time to relieve the pain of the prisoner's families and make them aware that their loved ones still live.

While you hear nothing but criticism about the United States Supreme Courts involvement in the last election the Florida Supreme Court violated almost every tenant of judicial restraint and none-biased review in their attempt to become involved in a national political issue. Their attempted involvement went far beyond their duty to review Florida law. They changed their procedural rules, suggested language for the Democratic Party to include in their briefs and when that language was not forthcoming rendered holdings concerning matters which were not before them to review and which were far outside their jurisdiction. In my opinion, it was their inappropriate conduct that forced the US Supremes to get involved. Similarly, there is a question of jurisdiction today. The Courts are not in charge of the Executive branch of government as much as some justices apparently believe they should be. The US constitution for the most part only guarantees protection to American citizens or in some instances none citizens located on American soil. Activist Justices often forget that . While some perceived government misconduct may be governed by international treaties on war time behavior in most instances our Courts do not have the Jurisdiction to legitimately say much about it.

The American Bar Association is hardly an unbiased critic on government conduct. Years ago I terminated my membership in their organization because of their donations to political parties and my observations that their comments and recommendations appeared to be based more on how much money was likely to flow to its membership than legal analysis.
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#4 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
cwilhelmi and banshee

the article was a copy and paste. the author is more eloquent and succinct than i could be.

thank you for the responses. i was starting to feel isolated, not paranoid, isolated.

i have been joking with friends that the democrats must win both houses, not because they are any better than the republicans, but i was looking forward to a presidential election in 2004 in lieu of martial law. ashcroft is too dangerous and bush is starting to get cocky, "i'll decide if we go to war."

a man walks into a bar and sits down not realizing all the others at the bar are trumpet players.
the trumpet player on stage plays his solo and hands it to the first guy at the bar who also plays a solo.
each person at the bar hands it to the next person until it gets to our man who believes any one can play and starts to blow into the horn.

i suspect that man is bush.

banshee Offline
#5 Posted:
Joined: 07-12-2002
Posts: 10
RICKAMAVEN, dont misunderstand, for the most part I support GWB and applaud the policies he has set and the actions he has taken. I dont always agree with him and from reading your posts I know that often I dont agree with you. However, freedom is a passion of mine. Even though I find I frequently disagree with you and end up shaking my head, I always find your posts thought provoking. I celebrate your right to express your opinion and find it reassuring that two people such as you and I have the freedom to express such diverse views. Good day sir, and keep on posting.
jjohnson28 Offline
#6 Posted:
Joined: 09-12-2000
Posts: 7,914
Yeah, I might think them thought provoking as well if they were actual personal opinions and weren't cut and paste drivel,from partisan liberal sources.
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#7 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
jjohnson28

hello!

Charlie Offline
#8 Posted:
Joined: 06-16-2002
Posts: 39,751
Rick, thanks for the "educational" drivel that you posted so many times today........the liberal left applauds you! Go feed the hummingbirds and relax! Charlie
CJBully Offline
#9 Posted:
Joined: 07-31-2002
Posts: 753
jj quoted verbatim from the big fat idiot at eib...
jjohnson28 Offline
#10 Posted:
Joined: 09-12-2000
Posts: 7,914
CJ I have no idea what "big fat idiot at eib..." you are refering to.I'll assume your speaking about Rush? Go figure, I have'nt listened to him in years and have never listened to him on a regular basis at all. I guess great minds think alike when it comes to liberal drivel. LOL
CJBully Offline
#11 Posted:
Joined: 07-31-2002
Posts: 753
we wouldn't want to assume, or would we?
[email protected] Offline
#12 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2002
Posts: 9,719
I can think of 2,843 good reasons ....
jjohnson28 Offline
#13 Posted:
Joined: 09-12-2000
Posts: 7,914
You same people that are whining now will be the very same people to scream bloody murder "when" the next attack takes place that the Bush administration didn't do enough.As if I'd put any credence into anything anybody in the last administration had to say,let alone some wacked out judge for that matter.
[email protected] Offline
#14 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2002
Posts: 9,719
I may not speak for the group here as a whole, but, at 34 years of age I can, with a review of World History and common sense, rather I have, made the conclusion that I, unlike our children or parents (for those of us in my age group), have honestly lived in the most sheltered of societies and enjoyed freedoms only dreamed about by others. I was too young for Vietnam, born rather within the explosion of the technology boom and of the baby-boomers. Medicine was good for me and my peers - we didn't have to worry about smallpox, didn't know what anthrax was. The worst we heard about an STD as a teenager was of Herpes, because you could never get rid of it - but none of us ever knew of anyone that had ever gotten it. Gasoline was an outrageous .38 cents a gallon, even though the Ford Pinto got 16-18 miles a gallon. Vinyl flooring was sooooooo much easier to clean; giving us more time to relax and watch our choice of 4 television channels. Planet of the Apes figurines had parachutes on them - you just threw them into the air. Super-Elastic-Bubble-Plastic was .23 cents for a tube the size of K&Y Jelly (threw that in for Marla) and you knew you would get a free straw. We heard a little about racial indifferences and heard how some guy named Kennedy got shot. Listened to stories about how our parents practiced nuclear attack drills during school hours. We all stood, and said our Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag every morning. Kissing another 8 year old on the playground at recess wasn't sexual harassement and didn't warrant expulsion and law suits. If you spilled hot coffee on yourself, it was your fault, not McDonald's and you'd have been committed to think that you'd receive One Million dollars for it. Camels were cigarettes, Arabs rode them in the Egyptian movies and Desert War movies on Sunday afternoons. Who would have thought that our oil, our gasoline came from there. Bosnia, wasn't that something that you heard on the news channel one evening, got less attention than the Space Shuttle blowing up with some lucky school teacher. Teachers weren't on national television for having sex with students and didn't get fired for using a paddle. The Samsonite Suitcase commercial with the Gorilla was our version of the Budweiser Frog.
Today is now a different era, filled with greed, corruption, both political and corporate. At least the Mafia respected each other and kept their word.
Our children will only be told of the freedoms we had as a child. War will viewed daily on television. Will they have decontamination kits for chemical attacks at schools? Did you ever think you'd have to pass through a metal detector to receive an education?
The times have changed and so have the rules. We've traded our freedoms for job security, welfare programs, equal opportunity, and created a myriad of complex government appointed positions that don't communicate with each other but none of which you or I could not live without.
Politically correct or not, I'm just thankful for the era in which I was born, yet, I worry for the lives of our children.
Where is there an equal balance? Why can't we get rid of attorneys and half of the politicians? Why are illegal immigrants entitled to free medical and welfare, along with government sponsored business loans, but our own citizens and veterans are homeless and our own children go to bed hungry, but mostly undiscovered by our own media?
Lot's of food for thought here guys, the world has changed and I can't blame anyone but us and the previous generation for what our children won't have just because we wanted to be nice to everyone and take care of the rest of the world.
As for me, if you weren't born in this country, I'd prefer if you went home.
If you're starving for food, you'll learn to speak English quicker.
Temporary insanity should equate to temporary death.
Any program that targets any group of individuals should be considered discrimination.
Women should either shut up about wanting to get on the battle field or shut up and quit crying about some guy making a comment about how short her skirt is.
There's lot's of other problems that I see that warrant our attention and need a good fixin' ... hopefully my son's children won't suffer the fate of our mistakes.
In a nutshell Rick & "others", personally, at this point in my life with what I've seen - I really don't give a damn if someone that wasn't born here and/or doesn't speak English and/or is affiliated with another country does get locked up and detained without 'legal proof'. When they stop, we'll stop and if there's none of them left, they'll have been stopped and those like them will cease to exist.
[email protected] Offline
#15 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2002
Posts: 9,719
Sorry it's so long winded ... but it's already past 0430 and I just got back from my morning jog. Have a great day guys.
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#16 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
[email protected]

well said.

we don't have to agree because i can see where you are coming from.

thanks for opening up and explaining your feelings.
[email protected] Offline
#17 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2002
Posts: 9,719
Rick:

Can you? Can you honestly?

p.s. I'm typing this REALLY slowly because the other members of this board told me that the 'leftists' can't read very fast. (j/j)
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#18 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
[email protected]

yes i honestly believe i can, in spite of your smart ass ending, which was beneath you.

i don't know what that do-dad at the end means.

[email protected] Offline
#19 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2002
Posts: 9,719
RICK: (j/j) = "just joking" ....

I was sarcastic in my display of acknowledgment that you got the point of my post. But I do believe that all of us here know what I meant, and few (if any) of us are happy with the way it is today.
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