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Last post 6 years ago by Phil222. 41 replies replies.
New U.S. Tariff on Solar Panels
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Phil222 Offline
#1 Posted: Mon, Jan 22 2018, 10:27 PM EST
Joined: 10-01-2017
Posts: 1,911
"The Trump administration slapped a 30% tax on imported solar panels Monday in a move that critics say could slow down a fast-growing industry and kill tens of thousands of domestic manufacturing jobs."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2018/01/22/trumps-30-tariff-imported-solar-panels-may-cost-jobs/1056440001/

I guess he was serious about bringing back coal...
banderl Offline
#2 Posted: Mon, Jan 22 2018, 10:37 PM EST
Joined: 09-09-2008
Posts: 10,153
Phil222 wrote:
"The Trump administration slapped a 30% tax on imported solar panels Monday in a move that critics say could slow down a fast-growing industry and kill tens of thousands of domestic manufacturing jobs."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2018/01/22/trumps-30-tariff-imported-solar-panels-may-cost-jobs/1056440001/

I guess he was serious about bringing back coal...



That's beautiful clean coal.
frankj1 Offline
#3 Posted: Mon, Jan 22 2018, 10:46 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,293
dozens of jobs waiting to be filled.
banderl Offline
#4 Posted: Mon, Jan 22 2018, 10:48 PM EST
Joined: 09-09-2008
Posts: 10,153
I try to do my part.


I pulled out my gas furnace and replaced it with a beautiful clean coal burner.
Phil222 Offline
#5 Posted: Mon, Jan 22 2018, 10:52 PM EST
Joined: 10-01-2017
Posts: 1,911
Ha! I forgot about the "clean-coal." This move is upsetting. We're gonna slow down progress and lose more jobs than we create in an effort to prop up dying industry. Am I missing something?
frankj1 Offline
#6 Posted: Mon, Jan 22 2018, 10:57 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,293
I may not be the best guy to ask...just bought 90 feet of gorilla tape cuz needed a few inches to fix the back of my flip fone
Speyside Offline
#7 Posted: Mon, Jan 22 2018, 10:59 PM EST
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
Tripods never need a few inches.
frankj1 Offline
#8 Posted: Mon, Jan 22 2018, 11:02 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,293
true, true
Phil222 Offline
#9 Posted: Mon, Jan 22 2018, 11:06 PM EST
Joined: 10-01-2017
Posts: 1,911
If they decided to put tariffs on smartphones in an effort to bring back the flip-phone market, I could at least understand that because flip-phones were da-chit. My fave was the Razr.
bs_kwaj Offline
#10 Posted: Mon, Jan 22 2018, 11:20 PM EST
Joined: 02-13-2006
Posts: 5,214

The sky is falling...

Run for your lives!

heheh...

Beer
frankj1 Offline
#11 Posted: Mon, Jan 22 2018, 11:40 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,293
Phil222 wrote:
If they decided to put tariffs on smartphones in an effort to bring back the flip-phone market, I could at least understand that because flip-phones were da-chit. My fave was the Razor.

Elitist!
victor809 Offline
#12 Posted: Tue, Jan 23 2018, 9:44 AM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
Meh. To play the devils advocate on this ... the only way to get us involved in this "fast-growing industry" is to get manufacturing of the panels to occur here. That's where our companies would learn the necessary critical skills to manufacture panels and to develop the tech further. That won't happen if we are just buying the panels from China.

As for the jobs at risk... They're installation jobs. That's not a real competitive advantage and they won't really get lost.

This will raise the current price of going solar. Which sucks. But theoretically that increased cost will encourage US manufacture of panels. Which could be good.

(Note... I don't think this was necessarily thought out by the orange f--ktard... But just because he did some knee jerk action doesn't mean it was the wrong choice)
deadeyedick Offline
#13 Posted: Tue, Jan 23 2018, 10:03 AM EST
Joined: 03-13-2003
Posts: 17,177
victor809 wrote:
Meh. To play the devils advocate on this ... the only way to get us involved in this "fast-growing industry" is to get manufacturing of the panels to occur here. That's where our companies would learn the necessary critical skills to manufacture panels and to develop the tech further. That won't happen if we are just buying the panels from China.

As for the jobs at risk... They're installation jobs. That's not a real competitive advantage and they won't really get lost.

This will raise the current price of going solar. Which sucks. But theoretically that increased cost will encourage US manufacture of panels. Which could be good.

(Note... I don't think this was necessarily thought out by the orange f--ktard... But just because he did some knee jerk action doesn't mean it was the wrong choice)


Actually well thought out response. Unfortunately, no industry that is the least bit labor intensive is coming back to this country until water seeks it's own level around the globe with regards to labor prices. The best we can hope for is retaining and maintaining/increasing the tech portion and letting the dirty work be done where labor and laws make it most economical.
victor809 Offline
#14 Posted: Tue, Jan 23 2018, 11:12 AM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
You're right. At least not in large levels. But I would hold out some hope that the tariff could push some speculative/small scale manufacturing of solar back into the states.

Either way, it isn't the worst tariff.

The washer & dryer one makes no sense other than punative....
Speyside Offline
#15 Posted: Tue, Jan 23 2018, 11:55 AM EST
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
Solar will be minimally affected by this. Very few if any people or company's do solar due to economics. The payback is to long. They do it because of green policy, or politics, or environmental consciousness. There are also inherent problems with solar in snowy climates. Wind power, wave power, and geothermal powe are actually much more attractive from a payback viewpoint.
bgz Offline
#16 Posted: Tue, Jan 23 2018, 11:57 AM EST
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
I think if we manufactured solar panels here, the tech would get better and the panels themselves would be more efficient, but alas the free market is what it is and I agree with DED.

Probably not going to happen, as I think it'll still be cheaper to import them despite the 30% tariff as panels themselves are already relatively cheap.

I would like to see better tech though with solar panels, so I'm hoping that we do actually put some resources to at least engineering them to be more efficient. Maybe they can use a loophole to import the raw components then assemble them here to save cash.
Buckwheat Offline
#17 Posted: Tue, Jan 23 2018, 12:02 PM EST
Joined: 04-15-2004
Posts: 12,251
Incredibly short sighted and stupid. The tariffs are also on appliances. fog
Kawak Offline
#18 Posted: Tue, Jan 23 2018, 12:16 PM EST
Joined: 11-26-2007
Posts: 4,025
bgz wrote:
I think if we manufactured solar panels here, the tech would get better and the panels themselves would be more efficient, but alas the free market is what it is and I agree with DED.

Probably not going to happen, as I think it'll still be cheaper to import them despite the 30% tariff as panels themselves are already relatively cheap.

I would like to see better tech though with solar panels, so I'm hoping that we do actually put some resources to at least engineering them to be more efficient. Maybe they can use a loophole to import the raw components then assemble them here to save cash.


This wasn't a Trump thing. The final outcome was in substantial alignment with the remedies proposed in October by the U.S. International Trade Commission, and actually represent a less onerous outcome than what was requested by the case petitioners – Suniva and SolarWorld.

Solar modules are pretty much tapped out on efficiency. While some chipping away may occur over the next few years modules have limits. Most of this tariff was accounted for by companies already

30 percent tariffs on imported crystalline silicon solar cells and modules, declining 5 percent each year for the next four years. An exclusion for the first 2.5 gigawatts of cells each year

Per the GTM Research team, the decision equates to roughly a $.10-.12/watt cost adder and about an estimated 8 percent reduction in the total market in the near term, with growth again predicted to resume in 2019.
dstieger Offline
#19 Posted: Tue, Jan 23 2018, 12:23 PM EST
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
IF US-made solar panels (and washing machines) are not competitive largely because of subsidized production by foreign governments, then I support tariffs as a mean to level the market. And I might support some subsidization of domestic production, if the US industry is so immature as to be non-competitive currently. But, as a way to jerry rig the market so that US can compete where it isn't naturally competitive, its an expensive battle in an likely unwinnable war.
deadeyedick Offline
#20 Posted: Tue, Jan 23 2018, 12:30 PM EST
Joined: 03-13-2003
Posts: 17,177
Kawak wrote:
This wasn't a Trump thing. The final outcome was in substantial alignment with the remedies proposed in October by the U.S. International Trade Commission, and actually represent a less onerous outcome than what was requested by the case petitioners – Suniva and SolarWorld.

Solar modules are pretty much tapped out on efficiency. While some chipping away may occur over the next few years modules have limits. Most of this tariff was accounted for by companies already

30 percent tariffs on imported crystalline silicon solar cells and modules, declining 5 percent each year for the next four years. An exclusion for the first 2.5 gigawatts of cells each year

Per the GTM Research team, the decision equates to roughly a $.10-.12/watt cost adder and about an estimated 8 percent reduction in the total market in the near term, with growth again predicted to resume in 2019.


Just like the gas engine was 100 years ago? While the way we manufacture solar panels from silicon may have picked the low hanging fruit we haven't even scratched the surface of harvesting energy from the sun.
frankj1 Offline
#21 Posted: Tue, Jan 23 2018, 2:04 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,293
I know very little compared to those posting above, but I am good wif words and you guys have done some great writing.
delta1 Offline
#22 Posted: Tue, Jan 23 2018, 2:20 PM EST
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,832
" "

yah, some smart peeps here...
Speyside Offline
#23 Posted: Tue, Jan 23 2018, 2:57 PM EST
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
Kawak is right about efficiency. Though there is always the probability of a breakthrough in technology that is a game changer. There is one possibility that I can think of and it involves storage. Presently batteries are used. There is ongoing research into super capacitors for storage. This would be a gain in efficiency if there is a breakthrough in this technology.
delta1 Offline
#24 Posted: Tue, Jan 23 2018, 3:07 PM EST
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,832
Super capacitors would be a boost to all sustainable energy sources...
delta1 Offline
#25 Posted: Tue, Jan 23 2018, 3:07 PM EST
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,832
DDP
Speyside Offline
#26 Posted: Tue, Jan 23 2018, 3:44 PM EST
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
True, true.
Kawak Offline
#27 Posted: Tue, Jan 23 2018, 4:06 PM EST
Joined: 11-26-2007
Posts: 4,025
Sure, there may be a few new tweaks to the technolgy that adds a little additional power production but mostly at the inverter level. Dual mppt, opti track are some of those things that mitigate loss.The OP refers specifically to modules which are the highest cost on any project as a norm. If efficiency could be improved from todays norm of around 20%ish to say 40% well that's half the amount of modules you would need. Storage (lithium) is gaining traction but price is still an issue. Then there is Q @ night....
bgz Offline
#28 Posted: Tue, Jan 23 2018, 4:22 PM EST
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
Many researchers are experimenting with different materials to achieve higher efficiency ratings.

In many cases they are successful in building working prototypes, but a long way off from building a mass produced product.

Hell, there's still gains to be made with silicone based cells.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_cell_efficiency
ZRX1200 Offline
#29 Posted: Tue, Jan 23 2018, 4:38 PM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,683
Boy I love a good circle jerk......

*slowly backing out of thread*
Phil222 Offline
#30 Posted: Tue, Jan 23 2018, 6:07 PM EST
Joined: 10-01-2017
Posts: 1,911
They're saying this was a job creating measure? I can think of a lot of ways to create jobs in this country, but a 30% tax increase to one of the fastest growing job markets isn't one of them. If higher taxes creates more jobs, what was the deal with the recent tax-bill? A tax-bill which just so happens, makes it EASIER for jobs to go overseas...

Maybe I don't know enough about economics or the technology side of this to see the big picture, but to a laymen, it feels like they're trying to stall short-term growth in solar while we continue to subsidize other industries like oil and coal.

If they really were concerned about jobs in this field, why not invest that tariff money into R&D programs for renewables?
frankj1 Offline
#31 Posted: Tue, Jan 23 2018, 6:34 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,293
Phil222 wrote:
They're saying this was a job creating measure? I can think of a lot of ways to create jobs in this country, but a 30% tax increase to one of the fastest growing job markets isn't one of them. If higher taxes creates more jobs, what was the deal with the recent tax-bill? A tax-bill which just so happens, makes it EASIER for jobs to go overseas...

Maybe I don't know enough about economics or the technology side of this to see the big picture, but to a laymen, it feels like they're trying to stall short-term growth in solar while we continue to subsidize other industries like oil and coal.

If they really were concerned about jobs in this field, why not invest that tariff money into R&D programs for renewables?

yup, you are incorrect...you do understand the tariff.
Kawak Offline
#32 Posted: Tue, Jan 23 2018, 6:48 PM EST
Joined: 11-26-2007
Posts: 4,025
Trust me, green energy is subsidized. Without the ITC projects wouldn't get built. So is oil and Coal.
Phil222 Offline
#33 Posted: Tue, Jan 23 2018, 6:56 PM EST
Joined: 10-01-2017
Posts: 1,911
Kawak wrote:
Trust me, green energy is subsidized. Without the ITC projects wouldn't get built. So is oil and Coal.


I'm sure it is. I would guess the figures are not even in the same stratosphere though. This deal is not the end of the world, but when combined with a few other stupid moves, it becomes a big problem for future generations. Not to mention that it is pure b.s., and a handout to other energy providers.
bgz Offline
#34 Posted: Tue, Jan 23 2018, 7:19 PM EST
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
We're just not there yet tech-wise. Once the tech matures, oil and coal will naturally become deprecated (though will obviously still have uses, my car is a thirsty b1tch).
Kawak Offline
#35 Posted: Tue, Jan 23 2018, 7:41 PM EST
Joined: 11-26-2007
Posts: 4,025
bgz wrote:
We're just not there yet tech-wise. Once the tech matures, oil and coal will naturally become deprecated (though will obviously still have uses, my car is a thirsty b1tch).


Yes, I don't think solar will be launching any A380's into the air anytime soon. We probably need that super special clean plane Leo D uses on his green tours around the globe.
Phil222 Offline
#36 Posted: Tue, Jan 23 2018, 7:47 PM EST
Joined: 10-01-2017
Posts: 1,911
Maybe not anytime soon, but if we start investing in renewables like we do in other sfuff...who knows?? My point is lets not go out of our way to screw over things like solar.

https://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2016/07/flying-around-the-world-in-a-solar-powered-plane/493085/
delta1 Offline
#37 Posted: Tue, Jan 23 2018, 7:50 PM EST
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,832
zrx is missing out on some eye opening conversation...what a caveman....
Kawak Offline
#38 Posted: Tue, Jan 23 2018, 7:51 PM EST
Joined: 11-26-2007
Posts: 4,025
Phil222 wrote:
Maybe not anytime soon, but if we start investing in renewables like we do in other sfuff...who knows??

https://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2016/07/flying-around-the-world-in-a-solar-powered-plane/493085/


I'm not going to click on the link but please tell me this isn't the solar plane that weighs like 8lbs....
Phil222 Offline
#39 Posted: Tue, Jan 23 2018, 7:52 PM EST
Joined: 10-01-2017
Posts: 1,911
Hahahahaha!! Yeah, that's the one.
delta1 Offline
#40 Posted: Tue, Jan 23 2018, 7:54 PM EST
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,832
what happens when a 200 lb passenger boards that plane?
Phil222 Offline
#41 Posted: Tue, Jan 23 2018, 8:01 PM EST
Joined: 10-01-2017
Posts: 1,911
I think she could handle a 200 pounder...or maybe two supermodels.
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