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Last post 6 years ago by Speyside. 39 replies replies.
Musings about walls.
Speyside Offline
#1 Posted:
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
The last great Republican president tore down the Berlin wall. A Russian dictator who was a monster built the Berlin wall. I know this isn't an exact parallel to the border wall, but it gives me pause for thought.
banderl Offline
#2 Posted:
Joined: 09-09-2008
Posts: 10,153
And we didn't have to pay to build it or to tear it down.

Winning!
tailgater Offline
#3 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
Speyside wrote:
The last great Republican president tore down the Berlin wall. A Russian dictator who was a monster built the Berlin wall. I know this isn't an exact parallel to the border wall, but it gives me pause for thought.


Isn't parallel.
But we'll float it out there anyhow.


TMCTLT Offline
#4 Posted:
Joined: 11-22-2007
Posts: 19,733


LMAO..........more like A-musing
dstieger Offline
#5 Posted:
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
Did Joe Kennedy say "If you build a wall, we'll tear it down" ???

I'm hoping I misheard
cacman Offline
#6 Posted:
Joined: 07-03-2010
Posts: 12,216
Nothing better than shutting down the US guberment and hurting US taxpayers due to fighting over the "rights" of criminals who broke into this Country illegally.

Yeah… that makes sense! Criminals have no rights. They gave up their rights when they broke the law.
Speyside Offline
#7 Posted:
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
One wall was built to keep people in. The other wall would be built to keep people out. I am fine with you cons wanting the wall, that of course is what you believe is a correct decision. It finally clicked for me yesterday. Take all the descriptors away. We are talking about people. I see a similarity in that sense between the 2 walls. It also struck me how unlike Ronald Reagan president Trump is and how like a Russian dictator he is.
opelmanta1900 Offline
#8 Posted:
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
cacman wrote:
Nothing better than shutting down the US guberment and hurting US taxpayers due to fighting over the "rights" of criminals who broke into this Country illegally.

Yeah… that makes sense! Criminals have no rights. They gave up their rights when they broke the law.

So when they read a suspected criminal their Miranda "rights"... you're saying that's just for show, they don't really have those rights?
delta1 Offline
#9 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,832
Trump's show about the status of immigration in the US opened with the vision of four sobbing parents whose daughters were killed by MS13 illegals...be afraid, my fellow Americans, be very afraid...


but we'll protect you...
Speyside Offline
#10 Posted:
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
Yeah, all criminals should be treated equally. John Wayne Gacey and a j walker for example. Or someone who smokes a little weed and Jeffery Dahmer. Or a improper lane usage and Ted Bundy.
ZRX1200 Offline
#11 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,683
Citizens and non-citizens is apples to empinadas.
ZRX1200 Offline
#12 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,683
Everify, punish employers who employ illegals and no benefits for any illegal.

It'll sort itself out.

What is THE biggest single $ source in Mexico?
$ from the US.
opelmanta1900 Offline
#13 Posted:
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
delta1 wrote:
Trump's show about the status of immigration in the US opened with the vision of four sobbing parents whose daughters were killed by MS13 illegals...be afraid, my fellow Americans, be very afraid...


but we'll protect you...

How is that not a fair portrayal of the negative consequences of our current immigration system?

I think there's very common sense immigration reform that can be passed, but it takes one side admitting that there are some absolute monsters coming across the Mexican border... they're Mexicans and they're criminals and they're destroying our society...

And then the other side has to agree there are also some really good people coming across the Mexican border... they're Mexican and they are just trying to escape the monsters that live in Mexico and protect their children from being around or becoming one of those monsters, and it's our charge as a nation under God to show mercy to those people...

Problem is that most of America apparently finds one of those statements of truth horrifically offensive...
delta1 Offline
#14 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,832
There's a great Cuban bakery, Portos, in my former home town, owned by immigrants...they do a huge business, with lines out the door at all hours... their first shop in another SoCal town is similarly successful...employ hundreds of people, all friendly and courteous and well-groomed...excellent reputation extends to neighboring counties...co-workers in Santa Ana asked me to bring stuff for them when they learned I lived near the bakery...

they make excellent apple empanadas, pineapple empanadas, pork and chicken empanadas...not sure if all or any of their bakers are citizens...but they do make delicious treats there...

similar story is true for many of my favorite Chinese restaurants...

don't think any of the non-citizens employed at these businesses have killed anyone though...
delta1 Offline
#15 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,832
opelmanta1900 wrote:
How is that not a fair portrayal of the negative consequences of our current immigration system?

I think there's very common sense immigration reform that can be passed, but it takes one side admitting that there are some absolute monsters coming across the Mexican border... they're Mexicans and they're criminals and they're destroying our society...

And then the other side has to agree there are also some really good people coming across the Mexican border... they're Mexican and they are just trying to escape the monsters that live in Mexico and protect their children from being around or becoming one of those monsters, and it's our charge as a nation under God to show mercy to those people...

Problem is that most of America apparently finds one of those statements of truth horrifically offensive...



I get that, Opel...but...

although it is true that some immigrants, legal and illegal, have committed crimes here in the US, some truly horrific crimes, those incidents pale in comparison to crime rates committed by citizens. So it is a stacked and slanted reason for coloring the opinions about immigrants in general.

http://thehill.com/latino/324607-reports-find-that-immigrants-commit-less-crime-than-us-born-citizens


The accentuation of those worst of the worse, without mentioning the positive contributions of the vast majority of immigrants, legal and illegal, throughout this country's history was a cynical and sinister opening for his plans regarding a much more restrictive immigration policy. Stoking fear is a tried and true formula for getting people to approve major policy shifts.

A reasonable approach would be to identify failures in our immigration screening process and propose ways to identify these worst criminals as they try to enter the country...do we know how, when, where they came in?
Kawak Offline
#16 Posted:
Joined: 11-26-2007
Posts: 4,025
Anyone dense enough to believe Reagan tore down the Berlin wall should start a thread about it...oh wait...
Speyside Offline
#17 Posted:
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
His policies resulted in the tearing down of the wall.
Kawak Offline
#18 Posted:
Joined: 11-26-2007
Posts: 4,025
Speyside wrote:
His policies resulted in the tearing down of the wall.



No, they didn't.....
DrafterX Offline
#19 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,601
What happened to the 'it happened under his watch' thing... Do we get to pick and choose those too..?? Huh
Phil222 Offline
#20 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2017
Posts: 1,911
ZRX1200 wrote:
punish employers who employ illegals and no benefits for any illegal.


Exactly. Stick with inexpensive measures that will show better results than a wall.
DrafterX Offline
#21 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,601
Gotta do both... Especially if the dreamers get a path to citizenship... The floodgates will open... Mellow
Speyside Offline
#22 Posted:
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
I have always felt that slipping the cash flow, illegal employment, would be the best solution to stopping the incentive for illegal aliens to be here. Quacker, the stratigic defense initiative put a huge cash burden on communism and was one of the causes of its downfall. Also peristroika and glasnost allowed Gorbachev a way out of the coldwar. In May of 1988 Reagan spoke of his support of this during a speech to Russian students before a summit meeting with Gorbachev in Russia.
delta1 Offline
#23 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,832
Canada has expressed outrage that people are streaming into their country from their southern border with the USA.

https://globalnews.ca/news/3696080/misinformation-illegal-crossing-canada-wrong-information-campaign/



I heard they are talking about building a wall, and getting funding for it through a re-negotiated NAFTA. One government source said PM Trudeau called the US a sh!*thole...
deadeyedick Offline
#24 Posted:
Joined: 03-13-2003
Posts: 17,177
opelmanta1900 wrote:
How is that not a fair portrayal of the negative consequences of our current immigration system?

I think there's very common sense immigration reform that can be passed, but it takes one side admitting that there are some absolute monsters coming across the Mexican border... they're Mexicans and they're criminals and they're destroying our society...

And then the other side has to agree there are also some really good people coming across the Mexican border... they're Mexican and they are just trying to escape the monsters that live in Mexico and protect their children from being around or becoming one of those monsters, and it's our charge as a nation under God to show mercy to those people...

Problem is that most of America apparently finds one of those statements of truth horrifically offensive...


Maybe we can show some mercy to our neighbors but without total control where does it stop. Why single out Mexico? A large % are coming from other South American countries. Does your mercy stop there? How about Asia? Middle East? Africa? I'm sure they are also full of good people who only want a better life be it due to wars, famine, economic conditions.

If the USA was not geographically tougher to reach we would by now be experiencing millions of illegals flooding in like Europe is.
teedubbya Offline
#25 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
I'm for securing the boarder in any and every way possible, deporting those that come here illegally quickly, punishing employers that hire illegals, and making legal immigration easier while drastically increasing the number of legal immigrants we let in.

That last part makes the first three even stronger. If there is a readily accessible legal way to get in without draconian limits or quotas then I'm absolutely for no mercy for those that don't go through the right processes.


Cutting legal immigration is absurd to me and just an effed up political charade.



I'm also amazed how selective folks are in supporting Reagan.
.
victor809 Offline
#26 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
So... I think the wall is idiotic. But whatever... people get hung up on symbols... as if a wall will protect them

Interesting story (probably not)... the woman's best friend is/was an illegal immigrant. She was a brazilian model who came to the US on a student visa and overstayed her visa by some extraordinary amount... we were all living in DC at the time, she couldn't go back to brazil because she knew if she left the country she couldn't come back for a long while... she was dating a guy seriously and didn't want to lose that... and meanwhile she was working as a table-girl at a club in DC (you know... spend 400$ and get a bottle of vodka and a table at a club, these girls come around and make sure you have everything you need while wearing short shorts and high heels)...

Long story short... she eventually solved her problem by marrying a restaurateur in DC... gets the expensive condo downtown, gets to quit her job and actually go back to school... you know, taking bll0wjob jobs from hard working american women. Well, she divorced him almost immediately after she got her citizenship. ... moved to miami to party with richer men.

Long story short... this isn't china in 400BC (or whenever)... a wall doesn't stop illegal immigrants.
banderl Offline
#27 Posted:
Joined: 09-09-2008
Posts: 10,153
The orange idiot knows the truth about this.
He had hundreds of illegal Polocks working on one of his buildings in NYC.
Pretty sure that they didn't come from Mexico.
delta1 Offline
#28 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,832
^^^#26

nuh uhh...ummm.....uh huuuuhhhh...



^^^#27

Poland is not a sh*!hole
Kawak Offline
#29 Posted:
Joined: 11-26-2007
Posts: 4,025
Speyside wrote:
I have always felt that slipping the cash flow, illegal employment, would be the best solution to stopping the incentive for illegal aliens to be here. Quacker, the stratigic defense initiative put a huge cash burden on communism and was one of the causes of its downfall. Also peristroika and glasnost allowed Gorbachev a way out of the coldwar. In May of 1988 Reagan spoke of his support of this during a speech to Russian students before a summit meeting with Gorbachev in Russia.


Branch out a little Spey and Neutered, It started in Poland and other Warsaw Pact countries because no matter where you are Liberty and Freedom will always be the driving force. Thank goodness Gorby was in power at the time. Putin would have launched jets.

Who Really Tore Down the Berlin Wall?


By Christopher A. Preble

This article appeared on Rare on November 14, 2014.

https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/who-really-tore-down-berlin-wall


Twenty-five years ago this week, the world watched as the Berlin Wall, one of the most enduring symbols of the Cold War, came down.

American mythology often credits Ronald Reagan with the Wall’s collapse, as if its concrete crumbled under the shattering power of his rhetoric. During Reagan’s speech at the Brandenburg Gate, he famously implored, “Mr.Gorbachev, tear down this wall!”

The reality in the autumn of 1989 was more complicated. The speech had occurred more than two years earlier, and the Wall wasn’t actually Gorbachev’s to tear down.

The East German government had no plans to do so. And yet the Wall fell. In The Collapse: The Accidental Opening of the Berlin Wall, Mary Elise Sarotte tells the story of who actually did the deed, and why. It is a story of courage and persistence in the face of a brutal police state, with a dash of bureaucratic incompetence thrown in for good measure.

I think President Reagan would approve.

Pressure from the outside helped to break open Eastern Europe, to be sure. It is true, for example, that international institutions such as the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe, and its Helsinki Final Act of 1975, had set the stage for a slow but inexorable expansion of human rights behind the Iron Curtain in the late 1970s and into the 1980s. Gorbachev then pushed through a number of reforms in his own country, and those reforms had been copied in a few Warsaw Pact countries.

Meanwhile, other Western leaders, including West German Chancellor Helmut Kohl, and his Foreign Minister Hans-Deitrich Genscher of the Liberal Party (FDP), had sought practical ways to allow more East Germans to emigrate to the West.

Still, it was not inevitable that the Wall would come down in the autumn of 1989. Not all Soviet satellites were happy with Gorbachev’s glasnost, and several were determined to resist — with violence, if necessary.


AND, from the liberal bibles,

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/12/opinion/reagan-at-the-wall.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/retropolis/wp/2017/06/12/tear-down-this-wall-how-reagans-forgotten-line-became-a-defining-presidential-moment/?utm_term=.fc7b5c44cdb4
teedubbya Offline
#30 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
the cold war and arms race coupled with funding OBL and crew had nothin to do with nothin
Speyside Offline
#31 Posted:
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
Quaker, do you ever have an original thought, or do you just cut and paste. That's an op ed. Not facts, an opinion. But it seems critical thinking is beyond you.
Speyside Offline
#32 Posted:
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
Quaker, it is nice that you now realize that liberals are correct, even if you quote one that doesn't give Reagan proper credit.
Kawak Offline
#33 Posted:
Joined: 11-26-2007
Posts: 4,025
Speyside wrote:
Quaker, it is nice that you now realize that liberals are correct, even if you quote one that doesn't give Reagan proper credit.



Just FYI, I'm not religious and I don't eat oatmeal...
Speyside Offline
#34 Posted:
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
Though I consider you as informed as a Quaker I will switch to another name to call you. Quacker. Since you are noisy like a duck, and make as much sense as a duck does. Quacker it is.
Kawak Offline
#35 Posted:
Joined: 11-26-2007
Posts: 4,025
Nice try dum dum. Spelling is hard...
Speyside Offline
#36 Posted:
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
Meh, you are boring. Can't you find a witty comeback? No, that isn't fair. Your double digit IQ is limiting. Keep up the good work. You are definitely a 38 percenter.
Speyside Offline
#37 Posted:
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
BTW, I was referencing the "inner light" you surely must see. Because your POV makes no sense to me.
Kawak Offline
#38 Posted:
Joined: 11-26-2007
Posts: 4,025
Speyside wrote:
BTW, I was referencing the "inner light" you surely must see. Because your POV makes no sense to me.


Again...nice try dum and dummerer
Speyside Offline
#39 Posted:
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
Mamma used to say stupid is as stupid does. Though I do like you can't fix stupid.
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