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Last post 12 months ago by DrMaddVibe. 48 replies replies.
DIY-Need a Hand
Stogie1020 Offline
#1 Posted:
Joined: 12-19-2019
Posts: 5,375
OK, I am pretty handy around the house, but electrical stuff makes my head hurt sometimes.

I can swap/install ceiling fans, fixtures, Garage door openers, etc. no problem as long as everything works, but if it doesn't, I am lost.

I am trying to replace an old motion sensor floodlight with a non sensor bulb setup. The old motion light had a wall switch for on/off in the house. I took the old motion floodlight housing down (disconnected the hot, neutral and ground) and replaced the old halogen (unknown wattage bulbs) bulb-fixtures with standard (E32) LED floodlight fixtures and bulbs (12W x2) and now it trips the breaker every time I put it under load and I cannot figure out why. I used the same in-wall round fixture box so I didn't have to cut stucco to fit a new one (that seems to be a bit larger for some reason...), but I removed the in-wall round fixture box and then replaced it. It's mounted to wood (under the stucco), so I don't know if there is now a grounding issue causing the short, but the setup is exactly the same as it was previously when it worked...

Here is a pic of the new light wiring (pardon the use of black wire for the bulb-to-housing ground, I didn't have any spare green colored wired.

https://ibb.co/dDQrs0B

Is there a ground wire from the house somewhere that is supposed to connect to the in-wall round box that I am missing? I didn't see anything when I took it out of the stucco initially.

Thoughts?

Should I just tear the whole house down and start from scratch?
Gene363 Offline
#2 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,844
There are two black wires from each socket, with are connected to the ground, I suspect one is a ground and the other is not a ground, but connected to the lamp.

Try isolating the light on a bench. Temporally connect the white and one each of the black wires to a voltage source.

If you have volt meter see if one is grounded to the fixture body.
Stogie1020 Offline
#3 Posted:
Joined: 12-19-2019
Posts: 5,375
You are right, Gene, I didn';t have any green wire laying around to run from each bulb to the case (and the fixture didn't come with them). Good point on trying it on the bench. I have a multimeter, I will check it and see.
delta1 Offline
#4 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,814
what's a multimeter?
HockeyDad Offline
#5 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,164
delta1 wrote:
what's a multimeter?


More than one meter.
HockeyDad Offline
#6 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,164
Stogie1020 wrote:

Should I just tear the whole house down and start from scratch?


That’s what I’m doing.
Stogie1020 Offline
#7 Posted:
Joined: 12-19-2019
Posts: 5,375
delta1 wrote:
what's a multimeter?

it will read 220 or 221, whatever it takes...
tonygraz Offline
#8 Posted:
Joined: 08-11-2008
Posts: 20,288
Did you test yourself for sobriety ?
danmdevries Online
#9 Posted:
Joined: 02-11-2014
Posts: 17,451
If the breaker is tripping as soon as you switch it on, you've wired it wrong.

Hot side in the socket is the tab at the bottom.

Neutral in the socket is the threaded part.

Take it off the house, put your multimeter in ohms/continuity mode. Put one lead of your multimeter on one of the black wires and the other probe of your multimeter on the tab in the lamp socket. Did it beep or show a zero or small number on the display? That's the wire you connect to the hot lead coming out of your house (should be the black wire). The one that's continuous to ground gets grounded and the one that's continuous with the threaded part of the socket is your neutral.

Looking at the picture I'm not sure why there's black wires coming out of the lamp socket and going to ground. The fixture should be grounded to the junction box but the lamp sockets themselves shouldn't need a ground wire. You're only grounding the chassis/housing. The socket itself, at least the ones I've seen, doesn't have a ground. I'm wondering if they're both hots or you said you replaced the lamp holders on the housing maybe one of the black wires you have going to ground went to the motion sensor?
Brewha Offline
#10 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,201
What are the two back wires going to ground?? There should be no need to ground the fixture more than once.

If the Line/Load (black) is tied to ground you WILL pop the circuit breaker.

Disconnect your ground and try it - I think you have the line/load tied to ground.

Disconnect the black to the fixture to see if they’re a short in the wall.

Try the fixture without the bulbs to see if there is a short in the bulbs

Get a meter - $5 at harbor freight.
Jakethesnake86 Offline
#11 Posted:
Joined: 12-29-2020
Posts: 4,202
The two blacks shouldn’t go to your ground. If I was taking a wild guess all those blacks should be together.
Is that a brand new fixture you’re hanging or used? A fixture will still light even without a ground. Leave your yellow ground as is but remove the two black wires. Light will likely light with just 2 of those blacks. The other 2 would likely tie into red which you don’t have. You use red wire when you have 2 switches controlling the same light. In this case you don’t have a secondary switch to control that light. This is just a guess but I have dabbled heavily and wired a couple houses. (Remodeling with the homies).
Jakethesnake86 Offline
#12 Posted:
Joined: 12-29-2020
Posts: 4,202
So basically you’re running a hot directly to a ground which is instakillin your breaker.
Stogie1020 Offline
#13 Posted:
Joined: 12-19-2019
Posts: 5,375
It's not hot to ground, I just needed some wires to connect the ground and used non-hot black wiring...
Jakethesnake86 Offline
#14 Posted:
Joined: 12-29-2020
Posts: 4,202
I could be crazy. Im confused why a ground wire black or solid copper would be going into the bulb housing ever. I’ve personally never saw that. I convert the fluorescent bulbs with capacitor over to led pretty regular. I’ve never had to add a ground. Maybe if you had some more pictures of what you’ve changed I might better be able to assist.

The fact your breaker instantly kicks is a sign of a dead short. Which is why I thought you had a black hot to a dead ground. I get that you’re using wire you have on hand. I’d do the same. I just haven’t ever had to run a separate ground.

I’m not trying to be smart assed or anything. Genuinely trying to help
Jakethesnake86 Offline
#15 Posted:
Joined: 12-29-2020
Posts: 4,202
By any chance in a million you didn’t accidentally hook one of your grounds up to the hot in the wall did you? Like the black ground didn’t mistakenly get hooked up to the black coming out of the wall. I’m 99 there’s a short to a ground to instantly kick your breaker as soon as you throw the switch.
BuckyB93 Offline
#16 Posted:
Joined: 07-16-2004
Posts: 14,227
What happens if you just ignore the ground?

Undo the yellow wire. Test it, does it trip the breaker? I'd guess not.

If not reconnect the yellow from the fixture and the junction box leaving out the non wire nutted blacks (the two black wires that make a "W" in your pictureI. Test again. Does it trip? I'd guess not.

Not sure what the extra black wires on the light fixture are for. Maybe they are for daisy chaining other light fixtures?

Wouldn't just simply screwing the fixture into the junction box connect the ground via the installation screws anyway? (assuming the junction box is grounded behind the stucco somewhere)
Jakethesnake86 Offline
#17 Posted:
Joined: 12-29-2020
Posts: 4,202
The extra blacks are ground wire stogie added
BuckyB93 Offline
#18 Posted:
Joined: 07-16-2004
Posts: 14,227
Why would you need to add extra grounds from each light socket? Shouldn't the whole assembly be grounded via the yellow ground wire?

Maybe if he put his tongue on the screw of the light fixture, we could be a better diagnosis.

Stogie, keep it wired as you have it then lick the screw on the light fixture. Report back the results of the test.

BuckyB93 Offline
#19 Posted:
Joined: 07-16-2004
Posts: 14,227
NINE! teen

Edit: I'll bet one of the bulb sockets has a short in it. Replace it and it will work perfectly. Might be some cheap Chinese stuff so return the faulty fixture to Home Depot and get your $20 back.
Jakethesnake86 Offline
#20 Posted:
Joined: 12-29-2020
Posts: 4,202
The extra blacks are ground wire stogie added
Stogie1020 Offline
#21 Posted:
Joined: 12-19-2019
Posts: 5,375
Jakethesnake86 wrote:
By any chance in a million you didn’t accidentally hook one of your grounds up to the hot in the wall did you? Like the black ground didn’t mistakenly get hooked up to the black coming out of the wall. I’m 99 there’s a short to a ground to instantly kick your breaker as soon as you throw the switch.

I hear you, but I don't think so. Initially I only had the single green/ yellow ground wire connected and it tripped the breaker. I saw a green screw inside each bulb housing and figured I would try connecting them to the main ground as well... didn't solve the problem. I am thinking that I may have dislodged the wall-to-fixture box ground wire, so I will go up into the attic this weekend and see from the back.
Jakethesnake86 Offline
#22 Posted:
Joined: 12-29-2020
Posts: 4,202
Breaker kick out if you disconnect the fixture? Everything appears correct now that I’m picking up what you’re putting down. Both original blacks go to the brass screws and both whites to the silver Green to your black ground wires then maybe something has gotten moved. 🤔
DrafterX Offline
#23 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,564
Don't confuse Nuetral and ground. As mentioned you prolly don't even need a Ground.
A meter should tell you everything you need to know. If not pull the switch out and look at the wire colors there.


Mellow
HockeyDad Offline
#24 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,164
This whole thing sounds racist.
Cheno Offline
#25 Posted:
Joined: 06-06-2019
Posts: 1,994
Was this fixed? If not I might be able to help.
rfenst Offline
#26 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,368
Cheno wrote:
Was this fixed? If not I might be able to help.

We should all chip in and get you a first class ticket for your flight.
Me? I'd probably hire the electrician.
deadeyedick Offline
#27 Posted:
Joined: 03-13-2003
Posts: 17,124
Cheno wrote:
Was this fixed? If not I might be able to help.


May be too late. I saw smoke rising from Stogie's area Think
BuckyB93 Offline
#28 Posted:
Joined: 07-16-2004
Posts: 14,227
https://tinyurl.com/3ad4y5b7
BuckyB93 Offline
#29 Posted:
Joined: 07-16-2004
Posts: 14,227
Twenty NINE!
Jakethesnake86 Offline
#30 Posted:
Joined: 12-29-2020
Posts: 4,202
Updates stogie. I’m invested
Brewha Offline
#31 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,201
Another thought,

Wire in a MOSFET transpositor to create an ODM bypass. The metal oxide should suppress sinusoidal repleneration and correct any cross phase reluctance. Tie the tertiary output to the lunar wane shaft to prevent any back EMF duractance.

Or buy a meter.
Stogie1020 Offline
#32 Posted:
Joined: 12-19-2019
Posts: 5,375
deadeyedick wrote:
May be too late. I saw smoke rising from Stogie's area Think

That was me rapidly trying to finish my cigar last night as the storm rolled in...
Stogie1020 Offline
#33 Posted:
Joined: 12-19-2019
Posts: 5,375
Jakethesnake86 wrote:
Updates stogie. I’m invested


I won't have a chance to work on it until this weekend. It's 25 feet up on a ladder so I have to time it for when the kids are not around or they will likely seize the opportunity to yank the ladder out and put an end to me once and for all... Wifey may or may not be complicit.
MACS Offline
#34 Posted:
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,833
I have remained silent, for a change, because I don't want to be responsible for Stogie doing the 220 shuffle... or 221.
HockeyDad Offline
#35 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,164
It's all ball bearings nowadays. Now you prepare that Fetzer valve with some 3-in-1 oil and some gauze pads, and I'm gonna need 'bout ten quarts of anti-freeze, preferably Prestone. No, no make that Quaker State.
Stogie1020 Offline
#36 Posted:
Joined: 12-19-2019
Posts: 5,375
I CHANGED THE DAMN BLINKER FLUID ALREADY!!!!
HockeyDad Offline
#37 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,164
Try ChatGPT.
Gene363 Offline
#38 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,844
Update the firmware too.
Jakethesnake86 Offline
#39 Posted:
Joined: 12-29-2020
Posts: 4,202
🤔 what it look like stogie?
Stogie1020 Offline
#40 Posted:
Joined: 12-19-2019
Posts: 5,375
Problem is 100% resolved.


I burned it down and we are rebuilding.

Actually, I redeemed myself. There was a short inside one of the bulb sockets that was the problem. I swapped it out for a replacement and it works perfectly. Cheap Chinese stuff I guess. Anyway, I will take it back to Home Depot and get my $20 back...

No more 25 feet up on a ladder for me. Wifey will have to find a different way to collect on my life insurance.
Gene363 Offline
#41 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,844
Great outcome, well done.
BuckyB93 Offline
#42 Posted:
Joined: 07-16-2004
Posts: 14,227
Stogie1020 wrote:
Problem is 100% resolved.


I burned it down and we are rebuilding.

Actually, I redeemed myself. There was a short inside one of the bulb sockets that was the problem. I swapped it out for a replacement and it works perfectly. Cheap Chinese stuff I guess. Anyway, I will take it back to Home Depot and get my $20 back...

No more 25 feet up on a ladder for me. Wifey will have to find a different way to collect on my life insurance.


I metioned that possible solution back in post 19.
Stogie1020 Offline
#43 Posted:
Joined: 12-19-2019
Posts: 5,375
Thanks Gene.

Forget my psychic, I am coming to you next time, Bucky!
izonfire Offline
#44 Posted:
Joined: 12-09-2013
Posts: 8,658
Stogie1020 wrote:
I won't have a chance to work on it until this weekend. It's 25 feet up on a ladder .............................................blah, blah, blippety blah................................................


Stogie1020 wrote:
........................................blah, cough, burp..................................................

No more 25 feet up on a ladder for me..........................................................................


Why the hell did you put it 25 feet up on a ladder???
You shoulda put it in a place that's much more accessible...
Stogie1020 Offline
#45 Posted:
Joined: 12-19-2019
Posts: 5,375
izonfire wrote:
Why the hell did you put it 25 feet up on a ladder???
You shoulda put it in a place that's much more accessible...

LOL, true, true...

That's where the current fixture and wiring was, so that's where it stays...
deadeyedick Offline
#46 Posted:
Joined: 03-13-2003
Posts: 17,124
Hey stogie, that new motion sensor might come in handy. Just saw pics of a mountain lion roaming your hood.
Stogie1020 Offline
#47 Posted:
Joined: 12-19-2019
Posts: 5,375
Here kitty kitty...

We get bobcats on the regular, not sure I want to see a mountain lion though. Seems like a different potential outcome.

I just have to run faster than the wife and kids....
DrMaddVibe Offline
#48 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,513
Everyone always forgets about tripping or pushing someone down...it builds character.

Well, for the rest of us.

We had a loose neutral that took out an entire room that was problematic to find. Glad you got yours fixed. Good luck with the rebuild.


LOLZ
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