America's #1 Online Cigar Auction
first, best, biggest!

Last post 9 months ago by RayR. 25 replies replies.
The Founders Anticipated the Threat of Trump
rfenst Offline
#1 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,336
This week’s indictment of the former president outlines the sort of demagogic challenge to the rule of law that the Constitution’s architects most feared


WSJ Essay

The allegations in the indictment of Donald Trump for conspiring to overturn the election of 2020 represent the American Founders’ nightmare. A key concern of James Madison and Alexander Hamilton was that demagogues would incite mobs and factions to defy the rule of law, overturn free and fair elections and undermine American democracy. “The only path to a subversion of the republican system of the Country is, by flattering the prejudices of the people, and exciting their jealousies and apprehensions, to throw affairs into confusion, and bring on civil commotion,” Alexander Hamilton wrote in 1790. “When a man unprincipled in private life, desperate in his fortune, bold in his temper…is seen to mount the hobby horse of popularity,” Hamilton warned, “he may ‘ride the storm and direct the whirlwind.’”

The Founders designed a constitutional system to prevent demagogues from sowing confusion and mob violence in precisely this way. The vast extent of the country, Madison said, would make it hard for local factions to coordinate any kind of mass mobilization. The horizontal separation of powers among the three branches of government would ensure that the House impeached and the Senate convicted corrupt presidents. The vertical division of powers between the states and the federal government would ensure that local officials ensured election integrity.

And norms about the peaceful transfer of power, strengthened by George Washington’s towering example of voluntarily stepping down from office after two terms, would ensure that no elected president could convert himself, like Caesar, into an unelected dictator. “The idea of introducing a monarchy or aristocracy into this Country,” Hamilton wrote, “is one of those visionary things, that none but madmen could meditate,” as long as the American people resisted “convulsions and disorders in consequence of the acts of popular demagogues.”

According to the federal indictment issued this week, President Trump attempted to overturn the results of the 2020 election by conspiring to spread such “convulsions and disorders” through a series of knowing lies. The indictment alleges that soon after election day, Trump “pursued unlawful means of discounting legitimate votes and subverting the election results,” perpetuating three separate criminal conspiracies: to impede the collection and counting of the ballots, Congress’s certification of the results on Jan. 6, 2021, and the right to vote itself.

The indictment alleges that all three conspiracies involved a concerted effort by Trump and his co-conspirators to subvert the election results using “knowingly false claims of election fraud.” In particular, Trump allegedly “organized fraudulent slates of electors in seven targeted states”; tried to use “the power and authority of the Justice Department to conduct sham election crime investigations”; tried to enlist Vice President Mike Pence “to fraudulently alter the election results”; and, as violence broke out on Jan. 6, redoubled his efforts to “convince Members of Congress to further delay the certification.”

In all of these instances, the indictment alleges, Trump’s conspiracy to overturn the election was resisted by principled state and federal officials—including the Republican speaker of the Arizona House, Republican members of his own cabinet and the many state and federal judges who uniformly rejected the false election charges.

Defenders of the indictment argue that special counsel Jack Smith was compelled to seek it in the face of such a grave threat to our democratic institutions. “I do not believe there is anything that approaches this in American history,” former U.S. Court of Appeals judge J. Michael Luttig told me. A respected conservative jurist, Luttig helped to persuade Vice President Pence that he had no power to overturn the election results. “These are the gravest offenses against the United States that an incumbent president could commit,” he said, “save possibly treason.”

By contrast, critics of the indictment argue that, even if Trump did attempt to overturn the election results, his efforts were not illegal as long as he legitimately believed that the election had been stolen. “In order to establish the underlying charges, the government would have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Trump himself actually knew and believed that he had lost the election fair and square,” Harvard law professor Alan Dershowitz, who defended Trump in his first impeachment trial, wrote in the Daily Mail. “I doubt they can prove that.” National Review editorialized that even false political speech is protected by the First Amendment: “Assuming a prosecutor could prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Trump hadn’t actually convinced himself that the election was stolen from him (good luck with that), hyperbole and even worse are protected political speech.”

An instructive historical analogy to the Trump case is the controversy involving free speech and election integrity surrounding the election of 1800, which culminated in the treason trial of Aaron Burr. Two years before the election, Federalists in Congress passed the Sedition Act, making it illegal to “write, print, utter or publish…any false, scandalous, and malicious writing or writings against the government of the United States.” In practice, this muzzled the Republican opposition by making it a crime to criticize the Federalist president, John Adams.

The Republican vice president, Thomas Jefferson, responded by arguing that states had the power to nullify federal laws with which they disagreed. In the election that followed, Adams came in third, and Jefferson and his vice president, Aaron Burr, tied with an equal number of electoral votes. Alexander Hamilton, who believed that Jefferson posed less of a threat to the republic than Burr, helped persuade Federalists in Congress, who had to break the tie, to elect Jefferson. Both Adams and Burr accepted the election results and supported the peaceful transfer of power.

Once in office, however, Jefferson retaliated against his political enemies. He encouraged state prosecutions of his Federalist critics and lashed out against his archrival, Chief Justice John Marshall. He also supported the impeachment of Justice Samuel Chase, a partisan Federalist who had presided over one of the sedition trials, but the Senate acquitted Chase, establishing a precedent that Congress shouldn’t remove judges from office because of disagreement with their rulings.

Jefferson then indicted Burr, his former vice president, for treason. After killing Hamilton in the famous duel in 1804, Burr had fled west to improve his fortunes and raised an expedition of men to seize lands in Texas and Louisiana belonging to Spain. In 1806, Jefferson received reports that Burr was conspiring to incite the western states to secede from the Union and to conquer new territory. Jefferson alerted Congress and ordered Burr’s arrest.

Partisan passions ran high in 1800, as they do today, but American institutions and norms survived, thanks to the self-restraint of the leading institutional players.

Burr’s treason trial the following year was presided over by Chief Justice Marshall, who was dubious about the indictment. He issued a subpoena to Jefferson to deliver documents that Burr said he needed for his defense. Jefferson initially claimed executive privilege but ultimately turned over the letters. Marshall then told the jury that, according to the Constitution, a treason conviction required evidence of overt acts of war committed against the U.S. proved by two witnesses, and that no such evidence existed. The jury swiftly found Burr not guilty. Jefferson reportedly wanted to bring impeachment charges against Marshall for his conduct in the Burr trial but was dissuaded from doing so by the precedent established by the acquittal of Justice Chase.

Unlike Aaron Burr, Donald Trump has not been indicted for treason. But the trial of Burr, and the legal controversies surrounding the election of 1800, provide lessons about the challenges that will face American institutions before and after the election of 2024. Then, as now, there were grave warning signs of democratic decay, with allegations that both parties were criminalizing their opposition through partisan prosecutions and attacks on free speech, judicial independence and the rule of law.

Partisan passions ran high in 1800, as they do today, but American institutions and norms survived, thanks to the self-restraint of the leading institutional players and their commitment to preserving the Union. Adams and Burr accepted the election results, Jefferson accepted the Burr verdict, and the Republican Congress declined to impeach Marshall.

Abraham Lincoln worried aloud as a young politician about how long the institutional bonds built by the founders would hold. With his election and the start of the Civil War, they broke. PHOTO: LEIGH VOGEL/GETTY IMAGES
That institutional self-restraint was shattered in the decades leading up to the Civil War. Abraham Lincoln ran in 1860 as a defender of the Union and the rule of law against the threat of mob violence. Southern states responded to his election by seceding, invoking the same states’ rights arguments that Jefferson had introduced in opposition to the Sedition Acts. The shared norms and constitutional commitments that had prevailed a generation earlier were not strong enough to avert the disaster of war.

The great question today is which of these historical precedents our leaders and the public will follow. Donald Trump faces a range of legal troubles, but the indictment announced this week, even as he dominates the Republican race for the 2024 nomination, is the most far-reaching yet, accusing him of actively undermining foundational elements of our constitutional order.

The challenge for Republicans and Democrats alike will be to join in defending the rule of law and to allow the judicial process to take its course, as happened in the Burr trial. Otherwise, the election of 2024 may turn into a tragic rupture of our institutions, more like 1860 than 1800.

At the end of their lives, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams, who had reconciled in the decade after the explosive election of 1800, were pessimistic about the future of the American experiment. Adams worried that American citizens lacked sufficient civic virtue to sustain the republic, and Jefferson feared that factional clashes over slavery would destroy the Union.

Among the Founding generation, only James Madison was moderately optimistic that American institutions would survive. He hoped that public opinion could be educated to overcome the most destructive partisan passions. He had faith that, among other things, a class of enlightened “literati” would use the new technologies of the print media to diffuse the cool voice of reason throughout the land.

In our own polarized age, Madison’s optimism now looks quaint. On social media, with a business model of “enrage to engage,” posts meant to spark our partisan passions travel further and faster than those based on persuasive reason. Democratic transparency and participation have grown in ways that the Founders couldn’t have imagined, extending long-overdue rights and liberties but also levelling the speed bumps they put in place to promote thoughtful deliberation by elites.

The Founders feared direct democracy and devised a Constitution to tame it, to the frustration of reformers today. They would be astonished by our current political system, with its presidential primary system, nationwide campaigning and ever-more sophisticated media targeting, all of which has given new opportunities to partisan extremists and demagogues.

The Founders’ concerns about how democracies fall were articulated by a young Abraham Lincoln in one of his earliest political speeches. Then serving as a member of the Illinois legislature, he worried about the fate of the republic if a leader of demagogic ambition arose who was not committed to the institutions built by the founding generation. “Distinction,” Lincoln said, “will be his paramount object, and although he would as willingly, perhaps more so, acquire it by doing good as harm; yet, that opportunity being past, and nothing left to be done in the way of building up, he would set boldly to the task of pulling down.”
ZRX1200 Offline
#2 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,617
Right…..things that never actuated are a threat.

But the things our government ACTUALLY did before, and during his election and into his 4 years were not worth mentioning.

James Madison couldn’t have imagined the 💩 the state and DOJ would not just get away with but think attempting was ok. I miss hangings.
KingoftheCove Offline
#3 Posted:
Joined: 10-08-2011
Posts: 7,637
You lost me at WSJ…
RayR Offline
#4 Posted:
Joined: 07-20-2020
Posts: 8,898
Why doesn't Robert tell us who wrote the thing? That's just rude to just copy and paste the essay thing without giving credit to the author.

I read it first and you wanna know somethin'? I could tell by the bias that it was written by a lefty. I must be a genius because I looked up the article and and it was written by Jeffrey Rosen, the National Constitution Center President and leading left of center legal scholar (according to WAPO). Imagine that, a LEFTY constitutionalist, who ever heard of such a thing unless it was a living constitutionalist.

All that talk about demagoguery and the rule of law and he didn't even mention that demagogue and wannabe dicktator Joe Biden and his criminal gang. Well...it must have slipped his mind.

Then he got into that Abraham Lincoln nonserse (lefties love Abe), you know that "defender of the Union" stuff (unless you wanted to leave, then it was you can't leave because da union needs those taxes, and if you try to leave peacefully we'll kill you) and that stuff about being all about the "rule of law against the threat of mob violence". You gotta be kidding!


.
MACS Offline
#5 Posted:
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,800
Hilarious... Biden and his kid raking in dough selling us out to Ukraine, Russia and China... and Trump is bad.

Can't make this stuff up.
8trackdisco Offline
#6 Posted:
Joined: 11-06-2004
Posts: 60,082
Am simply hoping Trump gets knocked out of the race, so a Republican wins the White House.
Whistlebritches Offline
#7 Posted:
Joined: 04-23-2006
Posts: 22,128
8trackdisco wrote:
Am simply hope Trump gets knocked out of the race, so a Republican wins the White House.



I would prefer a conservative, a constitutionalist,a man of character............. anyone can put an (R) by their name.
rfenst Offline
#8 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,336
8trackdisco wrote:
Am simply hoping Trump gets knocked out of the race, so a Republican wins the White House.

i'd gladly accept that outcome.
rfenst Offline
#9 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,336
Whistlebritches wrote:
I would prefer a political and fiscal conservative, a constitutionalist, a man of character...no matter what the party because America comes before party.

FIFY
rfenst Offline
#10 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,336
I read and posted this solely because it mentioned the Founding Fathers and I wanted some perspective on their concerns and thoughts.

I thought it would produce a good discussion here regarding them.

Guess not.
rfenst Offline
#11 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,336
KingoftheCove wrote:
You lost me at WSJ…

Yeah, I know. It's just another useless, liberal rag.
ZRX1200 Offline
#12 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,617
What happened? Did the guy with the most electoral votes now win?

This existential threat exists even though the system worked?

Where’s the conversation when people deny reality to have a rock we can both put our hands on while we tread the waters and find common ground? Basic principles we hold true that help us not grip on foment of those things we don’t agree upon?


Say something divisive then wonder why there’s not a kind conversation?

*shrug*
MACS Offline
#13 Posted:
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,800
Biden has done or is doing everything they accused Trump of... and the WSJ writes this?

Absolutely a liberal rag deserving of nothing more than wiping my ass. My ass is too good for that paper. I'd pick up Tank's crap with it... it won't have to touch his ass.
JGKAMIN Offline
#14 Posted:
Joined: 05-08-2011
Posts: 1,403
Where’s Rev. Al Sharpton and his thoughts on the Founding Fathers when you need them?
RayR Offline
#15 Posted:
Joined: 07-20-2020
Posts: 8,898
rfenst wrote:
I read and posted this solely because it mentioned the Founding Fathers and I wanted some perspective on their concerns and thoughts.

I thought it would produce a good discussion here regarding them.

Guess not.


There is a discussion going on here, you are just not taking part.

You gave us Jeffrey Rosen's thoughts who purportedly was channeling the Founding Fathers.

It's interesting that he chooses Alexander Hamilton's quote from 1790. “When a man unprincipled in private life, desperate in his fortune, bold in his temper…is seen to mount the hobby horse of popularity,” Hamilton warned, “he may ‘ride the storm and direct the whirlwind.’”

That's funny since Hamilton tried like hell to be exactly that man that he spoke of. Hamilton was a two-faced double-talking weasel which is why LEFTIES love Hamilton, I heard they even wrote a Broadway play about him.

Tom DiLorenzo called Hamilton The Founding Father of Constitutional Subversion, among other not so flattering titles that he surely deserved.

Quote:
Upon learning that my new book on Alexander Hamilton (Hamilton’s Curse: How Jefferson’s Archenemy Betrayed the American Revolution — And What It Means for Americans Today) will be published in October, a law student from New York University emailed to say how excited he was to hear of it. He wrote of how sick and tired he was listening to one of his NYU law professors, Nadine Strossen, constantly invoking Hamilton’s judicial philosophy (and that of his political descendants) to promote bigger and bigger government, day in and day out, in class. Being schooled in the classical liberal tradition, this student understood that bigger and bigger government always means less and less individual liberty.

Hamilton was indeed the founding father of constitutional subversion through what we now call "judicial activism." That’s why leftist law professors like Strossen lionize him in their classrooms while barely mentioning opposing viewpoints.

More...

https://www.lewrockwell.com/2008/07/thomas-dilorenzo/the-founding-father-of-constitutional-subversion/
HockeyDad Offline
#16 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,142
rfenst wrote:
I read and posted this solely because it mentioned the Founding Fathers and I wanted some perspective on their concerns and thoughts.

I thought it would produce a good discussion here regarding them.

Guess not.


The Founding Fathers are dead, the Constitution is a living document, and the 1st and 2nd amendments are now highly inconvenient to the democrats as they orchestrate this great period of transition.
rfenst Offline
#17 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,336
RayR wrote:
There is a discussion going on here, you are just not taking part.

You gave us Jeffrey Rosen's thoughts who purportedly was channeling the Founding Fathers.

It's interesting that he chooses Alexander Hamilton's quote from 1790. “When a man unprincipled in private life, desperate in his fortune, bold in his temper…is seen to mount the hobby horse of popularity,” Hamilton warned, “he may ‘ride the storm and direct the whirlwind.’”

That's funny since Hamilton tried like hell to be exactly that man that he spoke of. Hamilton was a two-faced double-talking weasel which is why LEFTIES love Hamilton, I heard they even wrote a Broadway play about him.

Tom DiLorenzo called Hamilton The Founding Father of Constitutional Subversion, among other not so flattering titles that he surely deserved.


Here we go. The start of a discussion.
Did you read what was written about Jefferson?
RayR Offline
#18 Posted:
Joined: 07-20-2020
Posts: 8,898
HockeyDad wrote:
The Founding Fathers are dead, the Constitution is a living document, and the 1st and 2nd amendments are now highly inconvenient to the democrats as they orchestrate this great period of transition.



Yes, it's true the revolution to undo the republic that the founders created continues. Hamiliton did as much damage as he could in his time but somebody shot him. It was then up to his ideological heirs. I heard the Hamiltonian Lincoln saved the Union by destroying the voluntary union that the founders created.

But forget all that, don't let the historical facts about old dead guys cloud your mind. What about that demagogue Trump? He's the real threat to their new revolution LEFTY says. Bored


America’s Hamiltonian Empire of Lies

By Thomas DiLorenzo

September 21, 2017

Quote:
In his essay, “Anatomy of the State,” Murray Rothbard wrote of how states preserve their power with a number of tools, most notably an alliance with “intellectuals.” In return for power, positions, and pelf, the “intellectuals” work diligently to persuade “the majority” that “their government is good, wise and, at least, inevitable.” This is the “the vital stock task of the intellectuals.” The “molding of opinion” is what “the State most desperately needs” if it is to maintain is powers, wrote Rothbard. The citizens themselves do not invent theories of the benevolent state; that is the job of the “intellectuals.”

In his outstanding new book, How Alexander Hamilton Screwed Up America (foreword by Ron Paul), historian Brion McClanahan explains with sterling scholarship how one “intellectual” in particular, Alexander Hamilton, invented out of whole cloth a mythical founding of the American state that bears no resemblance at all to the actual, historical founding. His intellectual successors, most notably Supreme Court justices John Marshall, Joseph Story, and Hugo Black, cemented this myth of the benevolent, consolidated, monopolistic state through decades of legal opinions based on a mountain of lies.

This of course is exactly what John C. Calhoun observed during his time when he wrote in his 1850 Disquisition on Government that a written constitution would inevitably be “rewritten” by “the party of government” in a way that would neuter it as a source of limitations on governmental powers.

More...

https://www.lewrockwell.com/2017/09/thomas-dilorenzo/americas-hamiltonian-empire-of-lies/
rfenst Offline
#19 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,336
ZRX1200 wrote:
What happened? Did the guy with the most electoral votes now win?

This existential threat exists even though the system worked?

Where’s the conversation when people deny reality to have a rock we can both put our hands on while we tread the waters and find common ground? Basic principles we hold true that help us not grip on foment of those things we don’t agree upon?


Say something divisive then wonder why there’s not a kind conversation?


Stupid reply.
I said nothing. I endorsed nothing.
Just want to read some opposing points of view here as compared to the article. Critical thoughts, if you will.
Thanks for trying. I know you did your very best.
rfenst Offline
#20 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,336
MACS wrote:
Biden has done or is doing everything they accused Trump of... and the WSJ writes this?

Absolutely a liberal rag deserving of nothing more than wiping my ass. My ass is too good for that paper. I'd pick up Tank's crap with it... it won't have to touch his ass.


Rupert Murdoch thinks you just forgot your love for WSJ while it was pro-Trump for years- and still are missing the point that it is a conservative, pro-Republican news source when it comes to politics.
RayR Offline
#21 Posted:
Joined: 07-20-2020
Posts: 8,898
rfenst wrote:
Here we go. The start of a discussion.
Did you read what was written about Jefferson?


You mean what Rosen wrote about Jefferson?

Ya, those Hamiltonian Federalists left a real chaotic mess for him, like undoing the Alien and Sedition Acts. Imagine that, a tyrannical law to make "it illegal to “write, print, utter or publish…any false, scandalous, and malicious writing or writings against the government of the United States.” Sounds just like what the modern-day Democrats want today, and as with the Federalists it will be they and they only who would decide what is false, scandalous, and malicious writing, but add thought crimes to the mix for a modern 1984-ish touch.
MACS Offline
#22 Posted:
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,800
rfenst wrote:
Rupert Murdoch thinks you just forgot your love for WSJ while it was pro-Trump for years- and still are missing the point that it is a conservative, pro-Republican news source when it comes to politics.


No it is not. Neither is Fox news.
RayR Offline
#23 Posted:
Joined: 07-20-2020
Posts: 8,898
I heard... "If you ask twenty different “conservatives,” you’d probably get about twenty different answers. If you ask someone on the left, they would probably say it is racism, xenophobia, hate, and fascism. See how this works?"

What is Conservatism?
Jul 26, 2021
by Brion McClanahan

https://www.brionmcclanahan.com/blog/what-is-conservatism/
DrMaddVibe Offline
#24 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,453
rfenst wrote:
I read and posted this solely because it mentioned the Founding Fathers and I wanted some perspective on their concerns and thoughts.

I thought it would produce a good discussion here regarding them.

Guess not.


Well, then posting an article that plays loose with the facts was your 1st mistake. I get it though, it jived with your perceptions of Orangeman Baaaad.

https://www.founders.archives.gov/

Start there and work yourself outward. The Founding Fathers warned of centralized banking being the enemy of the people but look at Alexander Hamilton go.

What you're failing to admit is that the narrative you cling to isn't based in reality. Its a game perpetuated by a party that hates you. Each and every thing they put on Trump's shoulders they're guilty of doing themselves but you fail to admit it or even care to see it. As long as they're busy ripping apart this nation with their petty divisions and stealing from the American taxpayer there will be no unity. Hold up whatever it is you think we need to see, but you need to remove the plank in your own eye before complaining about the sawdust in mine.
RayR Offline
#25 Posted:
Joined: 07-20-2020
Posts: 8,898
We are living in the Hamiltonian Republic, not the republic that Jefferson envisioned. Hamilton was a monarchist, believed that the central government should have unbridled power over the states who were not sovereign republics in their own right but more like counties that needed to take orders from the center.
Joey B. like some other past presidents thinks he's the imperial leader of a centralized nation who like Obama who ruled with a pen and a phone and can impose unconstitutional dicktates on the states and the people. He gets MAD when states challenge, if not outright nullify federal dickates that he supports.

Hamilton wasn't a free-market capitalist. You could say Hamilton was a proto-fascist, although the word "fascist" didn't exist back then, the word "mercantilism" did. He loved the idea of government, industry and the financial sector being joined at the hip with the government ultimately pulling the strings of the economy. Can anybody say "Build Better Back" and "Bidenomics"?

Quote:
"Hamilton was in many ways a traditional mercantilist who viewed government as the primary engine responsible for driving commerce and industry for the “national” good. He loved the “corruption” of the British financial system, because he believed it was patronage and the government’s encouragement of financial speculation that made the system work."

https://www.historyonthenet.com/founding-fathers-alexander-hamilton
Users browsing this topic
Guest