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Last post 8 months ago by RayR. 61 replies replies.
Poll Question : Should Trump's trials be televised?
Choice Votes Statistics
Yes 14 77 %
No 4 22 %
Total 18 100%

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Should Trump's trials be televised?
MACS Offline
#51 Posted:
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,798
Gotta be careful of us conservative types...

We'll sneak up on you. fog
rfenst Offline
#52 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,336
First hearing on TV today.

Cheseboro and Powel moved to sever from the other 17(?) defendants.

Granted. I agree based upon the constitutional right to a speedy trial normally superceding just about everything. They will not be tried with the other 17(?).

The next issue was whether to sever Powel's trial from from Cheesboro's trial (two seperate trials). State argued they were part of the same alleged grand-scheme under the Georgia RICO Act, where the jurry gets to listen to all the facts of the alleged-scheme, even though they might have acteded seperately/unrelatedly. Apparently Georgi RICO Act allows this.

Both Cheeseboro and Powel argued that there are little to no overlapping witnesses or interactions between one another and that the allegations against each would poison the jurry about the other.

Motion Denied. One trial for both. All the mud against one gets raised in court against the other.
Brewha Online
#53 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,185
Beware of rats leaving the sinking ship....


MAGA rats that is.
rfenst Offline
#54 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,336
Interesting...


Was Trump ‘an Officer of the United States’?

A careful look at the 14th Amendment’s Insurrection Clause shows that it doesn’t apply to him.


WSJ Opinion By Michael B. Mukasey

Apart from the four criminal indictments brought against Donald Trump, those who would end his campaign for the presidency by means other than an election seem to be putting increasing faith in Section 3 of the 14th Amendment, known as the Insurrection Clause. That faith seems to be seriously misplaced.

To the extent its text is relevant here, the section in question denies to a discrete category of people—including those who have taken an oath “as an officer of the United States . . . to support the Constitution of the United States”—the right to serve as a “Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office . . . under the United States” if they “have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against same.”

A good deal of attention has focused thus far on whether the attack on the Capitol on Jan. 6, 2021, was an “insurrection or rebellion” and, if so, whether Mr. Trump “engaged” in it. Those questions, however, need not be answered until two preliminary questions of law are addressed: Is the presidency an “office . . . under the United States,” and was the presidential oath Mr. Trump swore on Jan. 20, 2016, to support the Constitution taken “as an officer of the United States”?

The latter question is easier. The use of the term “officer of the United States” in other constitutional provisions shows that it refers only to appointed officials, not to elected ones. In U.S. v. Mouat (1888), the Supreme Court ruled that “unless a person in the service of the government . . . holds his place by virtue of an appointment . . ., he is not, strictly speaking, an officer of the United States.” Chief Justice John Roberts reiterated the point in Free Enterprise Fund v. Public Company Accounting Oversight Board (2010): “The people do not vote for the ‘Officers of the United States.’ ”

Article VI of the Constitution provides that senators and representatives “and all executive and judicial Officers . . . of the United States” take an oath to support the Constitution. But the presidential oath is separately provided for at the end of Article II, Section 1, which would be superfluous if the president’s oath were required by the general language in Article VI. Mr. Trump took an oath as president pursuant to Article II, not as an officer pursuant to Article VI. Because the Insurrection Clause applies only to those who have taken an oath “as an officer of the United States,” he can’t be barred by that clause from serving in any capacity.

As for the former question, the language disqualifying a rebel from holding “any office . . . under the United States” follows the language disqualifying the rebel from office as “Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President.” If “any office . . . under the United States” is broad enough to cover the president, it is certainly broad enough to cover senators, representatives and perhaps electors. Such a reading would make reference to those specific offices superfluous.

Is it plausible that the authors of the 14th Amendment specified senators, representatives and electors but meant to include the presidency and vice presidency under the general term “any office . . . under the United States”? Note that the term is “any office,” not “any other office,” which implies that the positions listed before it aren’t “offices under the United States,” because they are elected not appointed.

But that conclusion is uncertain. The phrase “office under the United States” appears four other times in the body of the Constitution, at least two of which—one barring officeholders from accepting a foreign title or emolument, and one barring anyone impeached and convicted from holding such an office—may well apply to an elected official, including the president. Also, if a holder of an “office under the United States” meant the same thing as “Officer of the United States,” why weren’t the same words used to specify it?

That may be puzzling, but as applied to Mr. Trump it is irrelevant, because—again—he didn’t take and thus didn’t violate an oath as an “Officer of the United States,” and so cannot be barred by the 14th Amendment from seeking re-election.

Even a criminal conviction wouldn’t bar him from seeking and winning the presidency. The Constitution specifies only that a person seeking that office be at least 35, a natural-born citizen and a 14-year U.S. resident. If Mr. Trump is to be kept from office, it will have to be done the old-fashioned way, the way it was done in 2020—by defeating him in an election.



Mr. Mukasey served as U.S. attorney general, 2007-09, and as a U.S. district judge, 1988-2006.


rfenst Offline
#55 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,336
How Trump Plans to Fight His Federal Election-Interference Case

Citing ‘an enormity of unique legal issues,’ former president’s legal team promises onslaught of motions that could push trial start date


WSJ

John Lauro, Donald Trump’s lawyer, is pressing the judge for more time. PHOTO: JOSE LUIS MAGANA/ASSOCIATED PRESS
WASHINGTON—With less than six months to prepare for his federal election-interference trial, Donald Trump’s lawyers are turning to a familiar strategy for the former president: long-shot legal motions that publicly criticize the case and raise novel questions that could serve to delay it.

In a heated hearing last week, Trump lawyer John Lauro said he couldn’t build a full-throated defense for his client in the months remaining before the March 2024 start date and pressed the judge for more time.

Short of that, Trump’s team has promised—but not yet filed—a flurry of requests that legal experts say probably won’t derail the criminal trial in Washington but could delay it by raising complicated legal issues that might take time to sort out.

“I’m afraid, Your Honor, we’re going to be back many, many times arguing some of these complex motions,” Lauro told U.S. District Judge Tanya Chutkan.

“I can’t wait,” she said.

Former President Donald Trump is facing four separate indictments at both state and federal levels. WSJ breaks down each of the indictments and what they mean for his 2024 presidential campaign. Photo Illustration: Annie Zhao
Lauro said they would abide by Chutkan’s trial schedule “as we must,” but he vowed to challenge each of the four counts in special counsel Jack Smith’s indictment, which accuses the former president of conspiring to cling to power after his 2020 election loss through actions that culminated in the Jan. 6, 2021, attack on the U.S. Capitol.

“There’s going to be an enormity of unique legal issues,” Lauro said, indicating the defense team would be offering a panoply of arguments, including that the case violates Trump’s First Amendment rights and that prosecutors inappropriately wielded conspiracy charges against a political opponent.

It is commonplace for defendants in hard-fought trials to attack criminal charges through a flurry of motions. Even if many are unlikely to be successful before trial, they serve in part to put objections on record for future appeals.

Here’s a look at the main avenues Trump is set to pursue before he goes on trial.

A president’s executive immunity
In what Lauro said would be one of his first filings, Trump’s team will argue that he is immune from prosecution because the allegations involve actions he took when he was president—and therefore the case should be dismissed before it goes to a jury.

Trump, they are expected to say, was fulfilling his obligation to ensure laws are faithfully executed when he sought ways to confirm whether the vote was marred by fraud. Lauro said the legal team would ask Chutkan to pause the criminal proceedings until this issue is fully resolved.

Most appeals in criminal cases can only be sought after a defendant is convicted. Courts might view a first-of-its-kind case like Trump’s with greater urgency, especially with regard to executive immunity, said Victoria Nourse, a professor at Georgetown Law who served as Joe Biden’s chief counsel when the current president was vice president during the Obama administration.

“It’s not frivolous,” she said. “Since no one has ever decided this in the context of the president, I think a lot of judges would say, ‘I really have to take a look at this.’”

A previous civil case raising a similar question suggests Trump might not be successful with such a claim. Last year, another federal judge in the same Washington courthouse found that Trump could face lawsuits over some of his actions after the 2020 election, and not everything he did while president was covered by presidential immunity. That ruling, which suggested that presidents can be found liable for some speech outside of the context of their official duties, is now on appeal with the U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit.

A selective prosecution motivated by politics
At the Aug. 28 hearing, Lauro also said he plans to argue that Trump is being selectively prosecuted, “given the fact that this prosecution provides an advantage to these prosecutors’ boss, who is running a political campaign against President Trump.”

Trump’s Donors Deliver Windfalls to His Attorneys
Courts have set a very high bar for defendants to argue they were selectively prosecuted, requiring them to show that others similarly situated aren’t being prosecuted and that any discrimination is intentional.

Such comparisons will be hard to draw, making it unlikely Trump could plausibly persuade a judge to dismiss the case on those grounds, said Evan T. Barr, a former prosecutor now with the law firm Reed Smith.

But there are other reasons to pursue such a defense, Barr said. It could convince the judge that Trump’s lawyers should be entitled to more information from the government’s files. And it could frame for the public—in the midst of Trump’s political campaign for the 2024 election—why they believe the case is unfair.

“This is more for external consumption,” Barr said. “It’s mostly about fundraising and part of his political campaign.”

Other attorneys said filing such motions is a routine part of any good criminal defense.

“Defense lawyers in any case have an absolute obligation to understand the facts and explore all viable legal challenges,” said Andrew Wise, a lawyer at the firm Miller & Chevalier.

A biased jury pool
Soon after the case was filed, Trump also said he would seek to move the trial out of Washington, because the district’s population is overwhelmingly composed of people who didn’t vote for him.

The case “will hopefully be moved to an impartial Venue, such as the politically unbiased nearby State of West Virginia!” Trump said on social media soon after the indictment.

Biden, a Democrat, won 92% of votes within the U.S. capital in the 2020 election, while Trump, a Republican, won 68% of the popular vote in West Virginia that year.

Again, precedent appears to not favor Trump’s argument. More than a dozen of the around 1,100 people arrested for their actions during the Jan. 6, 2021, riot at the U.S. Capitol have tried to get their cases moved by saying a Washington jury would be inherently biased against them. Federal judges in D.C. have rejected all such requests to date.

Indeed, those judges have often expressed veiled annoyance at what they described as caricatures of the D.C. population.

“All we need is 12 people. And we have over 600,000 people to choose from,” said U.S. District Judge Timothy Kelly, who was appointed to the bench by Trump, in rejecting a change-of-venue request for the trial of leaders of the far-right Proud Boys group. On Tuesday, Kelly sentenced the former chairman of the group, Enrique Tarrio, to 22 years in prison, the longest sentence yet in connection with the attack.

Trump could take a slightly different tack, Barr said. One key premise of his defense is that he believed he had actually won the 2020 election, and his lawyers could argue that a jury drawn from a heavily Democratic pool wouldn’t be able to keep an open mind about that idea.

But even that route is likely to meet resistance, Barr said. Chutkan has suggested she would keep Trump’s case in Washington, which she described as “the site of the events at issue.”

However the judge rules on any individual motion brought by Trump’s team, she will likely face a blizzard of paperwork in the coming months.

“They’re going to throw in the kitchen sink,” said Nourse, the Georgetown professor. “They are going to try to bury [the judge] and bury the other side. And then when they lose, they will try to appeal it, and then appeal it again.”
rfenst Offline
#56 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,336
A reminder of how one juror could save Trump



WAPO

The big news from the newly released Fulton County, Ga., special grand jury report is that the panel recommended charges for many more than the 19 people (including Donald Trump) who were ultimately indicted. Among them: a sitting U.S. senator and two former senators — Sen. Lindsey O. Graham (R-S.C.) and David Perdue (R-Ga.) and Kelly Loeffler (R-Ga.) — as well as prominent conservative lawyer Cleta Mitchell and former Trump national security adviser Michael Flynn.

But perhaps the more practical lesson from the report, regarding the case ahead, is that it reinforces how difficult it might be to obtain convictions, including for Trump.

Indeed, on the vast majority of charges recommended by the Georgia special grand jury, the vote was not unanimous. To win convictions, however, all jurors must vote in favor.

Of the seven recommended charges against Trump, each featured precisely one grand juror who voted against, with between 17 and 21 grand jurors voting in favor. (Some grand jurors were absent for some votes.)

Of about 90 votes on recommending charges, just 14 were unanimous. Nearly half of those unanimous votes dealt with Georgia’s very broad law against making false statements “in any matter within the jurisdiction” of state or local government.

And none of the unanimous votes dealt with the central charge ultimately brought against all 19 defendants: an alleged racketeering conspiracy, also known as RICO.

As with the votes on Trump, the vast majority of the RICO recommendations featured one vote against. And more than 40 percent of the votes overall featured one vote against.

All of which suggests there was one special grand juror who frequently tried to stand in the way of what the vast majority of the other grand jurors sought to recommend — although it’s possible that the single holdout varied with each of the votes.

The special grand jury didn’t itself issue indictments. It just recommended them, with a separate grand jury later casting the decisive votes to charge the 19 defendants. Trial juries feature fewer individuals — 12, rather than two dozen — somewhat reducing the likelihood of a single juror’s standing in the way of what all the others want to do.

But recommending charges — the role of the special grand jury — presents a significantly lower bar (probable cause to support the charges) than will be confronted by the trial juries, which will have to determine the defendants’ guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

This is a scenario Trump has spent almost the entirety of his political career effectively preparing for. Trump has regularly focused intensively on building a devoted and unceasingly loyal base, often at the expense of his broader appeal. This has involved launching into vast and conspiratorial theories of persecution. And polls show that a lot of Americans believe these things, with as many as 4 in 10 believing falsely that the 2020 election was stolen from Trump and as many as 1 in 5 saying that Trump has done “nothing wrong” — not even something merely unethical — in each of his indictments.

We don’t know whether the one special grand juror regularly voting against charges for Trump and the others fits into those buckets (or even that it is the same special grand juror). They might have objected on other grounds, and some of the votes on other recommendations were unanimous. But the frequency of the single “no” votes suggests that someone was rather dug in.

If someone like that were to be seated on the trial juries, including Trump’s, that could prove a significant hurdle, particularly given the higher standard of proof for conviction. If his trial remains in Fulton County, it could hurt the former president’s chances, as Trump took only 26 percent of the vote in the 2020 election there. If the trial is moved to federal court, the jury pool could be slightly more favorable to Trump, as he would likely use immunity to get the charges dropped.

That the vast majority of the special grand jury’s votes were nearly unanimous after Georgia District Attorney Fani Willis’s (D) team spent months presenting evidence would seem to be a strong affirmation of the case she presented. But the outcome also points to the challenges ahead on the bigger stage — including how crucial jury selection will be.
HockeyDad Offline
#57 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,138
Have they set the date for the sentencing yet?
delta1 Offline
#58 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,797
nope...I see a lot of truth in post #56...Trump will prolly get a hung jury as about one in four peeps eligible for jury duty are staunch supporters...

he'll enjoy being the center of attention in the spectacle of these trials along with the fundraising that goes along with them...he's making a ****load of money as his supporters throw money at him since they see him as a persecuted "defendant"...there's a reason he keeps making dramatic public pronouncements critical of the system, some bordering on threats...he wants to stay in the spotlight and possibly scare his antagonists among the criminal justice system who may be attacked by a Trump fan doing his bidding...
rfenst Offline
#59 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,336
delta1 wrote:
nope...I see a lot of truth in post #56...Trump will prolly get a hung jury as about one in four peeps eligible for jury duty are staunch supporters...

I agree he has a chance of a hung jury on some of the charges.
rfenst Offline
#60 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,336
HockeyDad wrote:
He will be found guilty on some of the 90+ charges. Have they set the date for the sentencing yet?

FIFY
RayR Offline
#61 Posted:
Joined: 07-20-2020
Posts: 8,896
HockeyDad wrote:
Have they set the date for the sentencing yet?


They are deciding on the form of execution I heard.
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