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Last post 20 years ago by turnberry. 28 replies replies.
Is the temp THAT important?
gideon Offline
#1 Posted:
Joined: 04-23-2003
Posts: 108
Okay, so I finally got my new humi up and running and just put some of my sticks to bed earlier this week. Here's the question: The humidity level is holding at a perfect 70%, but the temperature in my apartment, and in the humi, is around 63-65 degrees.

Will the 'gars suffer over time if they consistently stay at a lower temperature than the recommended 70 degrees? Any thoughts?
SteveR@CigarBid Offline
#2 Posted:
Joined: 11-19-2002
Posts: 12,746
63-65 degrees is fine, especially if your humidor is stable at 70% humidity. I usually like to store my cigars in the low 60's for temperature, at about 65% humidity.

I wouldn't worry :) Just keep an eye on your cigars...if they don't smoke right, make changes as needed. Otherwise, keep on truckin.
Shua Offline
#3 Posted:
Joined: 04-23-2003
Posts: 41
I have a problem like that also but mine is that the temp is at 70 and the R.H. is at 75% is that a problem?
Lowman Offline
#4 Posted:
Joined: 12-03-2002
Posts: 6,982
Shua, you may want to bring down the humidity some... Put a bag of rice in humi to absorb some moisture... Or maybe try PG solution in your humidifier.

Low
bud451 Offline
#5 Posted:
Joined: 09-11-2010
Posts: 2,237
I think 75% is too high. I try not to exceed 68%.
cwilhelmi Offline
#6 Posted:
Joined: 07-24-2001
Posts: 2,739
I only worry if the temp is high, because that's when beetles come out to play!
Grizzled.Old.Board.Purest Offline
#7 Posted:
Joined: 05-05-2003
Posts: 99
Humidity is relative... The purests say, 70/70, or 70 degrees and 70% humidity. However, many others here say 70/65 or a lower humidity. Keep in mind that temparature and humidity are related (like many people in Georgia). Holding humidity constant, and raising the temperature will actually result in a higher "RH". Conversly, holding humidity constant and lowering the temperature will result in a lower RH. If you're desire is to achieve 70/70 "like" humidification, then at 65 degrees, I would shoot more for 73% or higher humidity. I'd have to consult a table to be sure. If you're objective is really 70/65 as many here profess, I would go 65 degrees and 70% which should be the same as 70 degrees and 67 or 68%. Again, I would consult a table for specifics. Just keep in mind the inverse relationship between temperture and "Relative Humidity". For me and my door, it stays at 70 degrees and about 67-68% humidity.
Lowman Offline
#8 Posted:
Joined: 12-03-2002
Posts: 6,982
GOBP,

When I was in a cigar store in Bermuda, hanging on the wall was a temp/humidity chart. At ___, humidity should be ____. Do you have a chart like that??

Low

BTW, While in the store this long, lovely lady kept calling me... I think her name was Ms. Partagas... Luci, I think... Showed her a $20 and she was mine...LOL
efm Offline
#9 Posted:
Joined: 01-23-2001
Posts: 499
Hey Grizzled, Methinks you got it backwards. Relative humidity is relative to the saturation point. At 100 percent humidity the air is saturated so it cannot hold any more moisture. Warm air can hold more moisture than cool air, that's why stuff drys faster on a warm day. If you take warm, moist air and cool it off it will become saturated, that's why there's dew on the grass in the morning. Therefore, increasing the temperature will DECREASE the Relative Humidity and vicie versie.

But that's just science. As a practical matter so long as the digital whachamacallit in my humidor reads somewhere between 65-70 I'm happy and so are my cigars.
Penguin13 Offline
#10 Posted:
Joined: 07-26-2002
Posts: 1,546
efm is right. If the air is gradually cooled while maintaining the moisture content constant, the relative humidity will rise until it reaches 100%. This temperature, at which the moisture content in the air will saturate the air, is called the dew point . If the air is cooled further, some of the moisture will condense.

KC
Grizzled.Old.Board.Purest Offline
#11 Posted:
Joined: 05-05-2003
Posts: 99
Dyslexia... Sorry; but my point being that yes, temp is that important.

Examples of How Relative Humidity Changes Occur

On a 30 degree F day with an outdoor RH of 60%, the relative humidity indoors can drop to levels as low as 15% when the air is heated to 70 degrees F (as the air is heated it expands giving it the capacity to hold more moisture. If moisture is not added to the air as it is heated the RH level may drop considerably). If the outdoor temperature is 10 degrees F, the indoor relative humidity may fall to 8% or less. These are extreme levels of dryness. As a comparison, the average relative humidity in the Sahara Desert is 25%.

Since warm air can hold more water vapor than cold air, the relative humidity of the air can be changed by simply changing its temperature. If in the winter, outside air at 20 degrees F and 65% RH is drawn inside and heated to 70F without humidification, its RH drops to about 10%. In summer, outside air at 70F and 60% RH flows into a basement at 60F causing an increase in RH up to 82%.
Grizzled.Old.Board.Purest Offline
#12 Posted:
Joined: 05-05-2003
Posts: 99
Here's a table that shows it pretty well. It looks like at 70 degrees and appx. 70% humidity, that a 5 degree drop in temperature will cause approximately a 3% reduction in RH.
Grizzled.Old.Board.Purest Offline
#13 Posted:
Joined: 05-05-2003
Posts: 99
$hit! http://nesen.unl.edu/resources/TeachingTools/humidityf.htm
egruff Offline
#14 Posted:
Joined: 12-04-2002
Posts: 143
OK, all. I will probably get trounced for this somewhat scientific explanation, but here goes...

MY ASSUMPTION: If you ignore foreign invaders, such as insects, mold, trees, etc., then the overall effect on the cigar is likely to be from the total water available to the cigar. This is equivalent to the absolute humidity contained in a cigar's volume. As previous posters mentioned correctly, lower RH at a higher temperature is equivalent to higher RH at a lower temperature in terms of the total moisture load of the air.

That being said, the following temp/RH combinations all have equivalent water vapor (12.8 g/m3 if you care).

65ºF/84% RH
66ºF/81% RH
68ºF/75% RH
70ºF/70% RH
72ºF/65% RH
74ºF/61% RH
75ºF/59% RH

In each case, the Dew Point is 60ºF, as the total amount of water isn't changing.

Now, I don't profess to know whether total moisture is the only determinant of cigar flavor/smokability/whatever, and bugs and mold definitely prefer warmer temps. But if your house isn't a steady 70ºF, at least you have an RH level to target to keep those smokes from getting too dry/soggy.

If you want a calculator for conditions not listed here, go to http://www.overgrow.com/tools/rhumidity.php

Hope this helps,

Eric
gideon Offline
#15 Posted:
Joined: 04-23-2003
Posts: 108
Thanks everyone for the thoughts.

Eric, if you're correct, I should be storing my sticks at almost 80%+ RH. I agree with your logic about trying to replicate the same humidity by volume as is present at 70/70, and by calculation, your figures seem correct. But I've never heard of anyone storing cigars at that humidity (though I don't know so many cigar-storing people!). anyone else have a thought on this?

Thanks in advance.
SteveS Offline
#16 Posted:
Joined: 01-13-2002
Posts: 8,751
the fallacy of the concept of offsetting the temp and humidity can be readily seen if one considers the effects of storing cigars at 40deg and 100% humidity ... or vice-versa.

A little variation from 70 won't make much diff ... a big variation will ... same with humidity, although I've been far happier with 65-68 humidity than I was with 70 ...

temp of 70 with humidity of 65 results in no draw and or burn problems ... both of which I had more of at 70/70 ...
Grizzled.Old.Board.Purest Offline
#17 Posted:
Joined: 05-05-2003
Posts: 99
Eric you are the man! I've searched and searched for that info presented in that format. Gideon, warm them babies up or hose um down! This is why people say "NOOOOO! When someone says, yeah, I wanted to keep them fresh, so I put them in the fridge" Folks figure, it works for bologna. But the cold temp makes it like a desert or like a dessert depending…
efm Offline
#18 Posted:
Joined: 01-23-2001
Posts: 499
egruff, I can't buy the "absolute humidity" thing. The temperature im my coolador is seldom over 60ºF except in summer. If I kept the RH over eighty as your chart suggests the cigars would be unsmokable. I can't argue theory on this but I know from experience that when the digital thingamajig reads over 80% the cigars will smoke like a wet noodle. Anybody that doesn't believe that only has to try it.
cwilhelmi Offline
#19 Posted:
Joined: 07-24-2001
Posts: 2,739
efm - I agree!! I rarely pay attention to my hygrometers... Just feel the sticks and refill on a schedule or as necessary...
egruff Offline
#20 Posted:
Joined: 12-04-2002
Posts: 143
Now guys, I'm not advocating cranking up the RH and storing your 'gars at 40 degrees, or anything like that. I was trying to point out that the amount of moisture in a humidor or cigar is the same at the different temp/RH combinations. I suspect (strongly) that the aging of the cigar IS dependent on temperature, so there is a significance to 70ºF. What I think can be inferred is that if your house/humidor is 66º and the RH reads 74%, for instance, then you shouldn't worry that your sticks will turn to mush. Conversely, if you live in the desert and the house is 74ºF, you shouldn't panic if your hygrometer reads 65%.

I work in the pharmaceutical industry and the same thing applies to storage of prescription drugs. What is important is the overall moisture load that a tablet or capsule will contain, not the RH. Anyway, it's just some interesting info - use it (or don't) as you all see fit.

Eric
gideon Offline
#21 Posted:
Joined: 04-23-2003
Posts: 108
egruff - i appreciate the insight and that web site converter is a great tool. thanks for posting it.

Alas, I will try to monitor my sticks over the next few weeks, see how the feel and smoke, and find the right RH to store 'em.

Take care.
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#22 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
if you guys would be cheap crap,like bad frogs, you could keep them in your oven or on yout roof and the humidity and temp wouldn't hurt them.

if you chose to smoke decent cigars, i offer this cut and paste for what it is worth:

5.0 Humidification

Why create a humid environment with a constant relative humidity of 70%?
Cigars are naturally hydroscopic products. In common with many organic substances, they dry out in the absence of humidity in the air, or absorb moisture from the ambient air. They establish an equilibrium with the atmospheric humidity which surrounds them.

At 68% a cigar will slowly dry out and loose essential oils. At 74% and higher, organic molecules will break down out-of-order, producing unwanted tastes. More importantly, at 80% or higher, you're leaving your stogies wide open to grow mold. Neither cigars or humidors are a particularly sterile environment. Note that these are relative humidities - cigars should be stored at 70 - 73% RH regargless of temperature.

5.0a The "Variable Humidity Myth...

Many self-proclaimed "authorities" have been making a serious mistake of confusing moisture content with relative humidity lately. At least one well-known Cigar distributor has added strength to this legend by distributing a table recommendinging different relative humidities at different temperatures. Don't fall for this "urban legend"! Cigars should be kept at 70% RH REGARDLESS of temperature or you WILL ruin them...

The modern myth of varying humidity with temperature is based on an entirely false premise. Cigars don't care about absolute moisture content. They need just enough moisture to keep the tobacco pliable, but not so much to swell it. This occurs at 70-73% REGARDLESS of temperature.

Tobacco should be kept at a relative humidity which just keeps the leaves pliable without swelling them. Since that pliability is based on the interaction of the cellular membranes with the air surrounding them, *relative humidity*, not absolute moisture content is what's important. This isn't chemistry, it's mechanics - on a cellular level. Ideally, the correct point is 70-73% regardless of temperature. At 70% relative humidity (a measure which by definition is independent of temperature) cigar leaves become pliable without swelling. at 75% or higher, the cells begin to swell. at 68% or lower, they can become brittle. These points are regardless of the ambient temperature or the absolute moisture content.

Does it make any sense to a rational person to keep their cigars at close to 100% humidity at 60 degrees? Anyone living in cold climates can attest to the fact that at 60 deg, their cigars are perfect at 70%, and (as they would at any temperature) their cigars are prone to mold and swelling at humidities above 80%. Those living in the tropics will tell you the same thing - their cigars MUST be kept at 70% humidity at storage temperatures of 80 degrees. According to "the table", those cigars should be at 50% humidity? I'll tell you what... If the humidity drops below 68%, your cigars will become dry and crack - I couldn't even imagine how badly dried out they'd be at 50%!

Try it yourself. The "logic" of varying RH with temp falls apart in the real world. Moisture content is NOT why we keep cigars at 70% humidity...

Here's a more scientific explanation debunking the myth of varying humidity from David E. Patton, Ph.D. at the Department of Physiology, UCLA School of Medicine...

"There has been extensive discussion on A.S.C. concerning the effects of temperature on humidity and its application to proper cigar storage. Much of the confusion concerning these concepts comes from not understanding what is happening at the molecular level. My goal is to explain some of the relevant concepts and then to put the concepts together in such a way as to give an intuitive understanding of how they relate to cigar storage.
Cigars are made from tobacco leaves. Tobacco leaves (like most plant material) consist primarily of carbohydrates and proteins. Protein and carbohydrate molecules contain many binding sites for water molecules. A certain proportion of the water binding sites need to be occupied by water molecules in order for the tobacco leaves to be adequately pliable, to burn properly and to age properly. So when we think about humidity as it relates to cigar storage, the most relavent factor to consider is: are the correct proportion of water binding sites occupied? Water molecules bind to other molecules via hydrogen bonds. Van der Waals interactions also participate. This applies to water bound to protein and carbohydrate molecules (e.g. tobacco leaves) or to other water molecules (e.g. liquid water). For the purposes of this discussion, water bound to tobacco leaves will be treated like liquid water.

Temperature is the main factor determining whether a water molecule will be more likely to be in either the gas or liquid (or bound) phases. This is because at higher temperatures, water molecules (like any other molecule) will have more kinetic energy. The more kinetic energy a molecule has, the higher its probability of being in the gas phase. This is because it will have sufficient kinetic energy to break out of the hydrogen bonds and Van der Waals interactions that would otherwise keep it bound. At lower temperatures molecules have less kinetic energy so when they collide with a carbohydrate molecule, for example, its kinetic energy is insuficient to break away from it. The important point here is that at higher temperatures, a water molecule is more likely to be in the gas phase and less likely to be bound. At lower temperatures a water molecule is more likely to be bound and less likely to be in the gas phase.

Another point that needs to be explained here is the concept of relative humidity. Simply stated, relative humidity is the ratio of the concentration of water in the gas phase divided by the maximal concentration of water the air can hold (the saturating concentration) at a given temperature. Air holds more water at higher temperatures. Therefore, if you hold the relative humidity constant and increase the temperature, the concentration of water molecules in the gas phase will increase. If you think about this superficially you may think that because the concentration of water molecules increases in the gas phase as you increase the temperature (holding relative humidity constant)that your cigars will become over-humidified. This is WRONG. Remember, as you increase the temperature, the water molecules are less likely to be bound to the tobacco and more likely to be in the gas phase. Thus, to keep the same proportion of water binding sites in the tobacco occupied by water molecules, the concentration of water molecules in the gas phase must be increased when temperature is increased."

Again, cigars should be stored at 70 - 73% relative humidity, regardless of temperature. Period.


efm Offline
#23 Posted:
Joined: 01-23-2001
Posts: 499
Thanks Rick, that's what works--watch the RH not the temp. The last sentence of your quote is confusing to me. Seems to suggest the opposite. But all this science gives me a headache.
gideon Offline
#24 Posted:
Joined: 04-23-2003
Posts: 108
Thanks rick - helpful post.
egruff Offline
#25 Posted:
Joined: 12-04-2002
Posts: 143
Actually, some of what Rick posted is somewhat contradictory. If you store your cigars at 60ºF/70% RH and then take them out of the humidor into a room that is 70ºF/70%RH, they will have considerably less moisture than if they had been stored in the room. If the water molecules are needed to bind to key cellular components in the cigar for optimal aging and smoking, then there aren't enough of them from the 60/70 humidor. If the room you brought them into was 80/70, then the cigars would immediately start taking up moisture and likely swell over time. Again, the cigar has a fixed amount of moisture.

Rick - one thing regarding RH. It's actually the vapor pressure of the moisture in the AIR relative to the maxiumum it can hold. Thus, RH can be misleading when applied to a cigar as there are other processes going on (as your post correctly pointed out).

So, now that this post has become hopelessly complex, I have a suggestion. If your cigars seem too dry, add moisture to your humidor. Conversely, if they seem too wet, take some out. There!
turnberry Offline
#26 Posted:
Joined: 12-11-2002
Posts: 915
Rick offers some good information. It does seem to make sense to maintain 70-73% RH for long term cigar storage. But if you do that I think you would benefit from putting them in a "drybox" for a day or so before smoking them so they can dry down a bit and open up. SteveS is right on about that benefiting the draw characteristics. My personal drybox is nothing more than a fairly attractive empty Astral box with pretty thick cedar construction.
Grizzled.Old.Board.Purest Offline
#27 Posted:
Joined: 05-05-2003
Posts: 99
We have a winner! Good one Turn. Excellent recommendation and that's what I try to do, unless the wet box has something just too tempting :o)
rayder1 Offline
#28 Posted:
Joined: 06-02-2002
Posts: 2,226
I keep my car 'gars in an Otter Box on the back seat. Sometimes it gets up to 100 something degrees and sometimes 40 something. I've never had a bad smoke.

Maybe my palate isn't as delicate as others, but a couple of those cigars stayed in the box for 2 weeks while I rotated others in and out as I smoked them. I keep a variety of short smokes, long smokes and gift smokes in the box.

In the summer, I probably won't leave them in there like I do in the cooler months since the inside temp might get up to 140 plus degrees.

I think home storage temperature isn't nearly as important as keeping them at a stable humidity and temperature for the long term.
turnberry Offline
#29 Posted:
Joined: 12-11-2002
Posts: 915
Grizz.........
The old wet box temptation. No comment and I am going to bed now :-)
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