Very interesting, this is a rabbit hole I'll go down. What's your day job?
Then we'll get back to your belief about logic. I'm sure we can agree on a suitable definition of the car Schroeder's cat won't stay put

lol... that just cracked me thinking about it, if you get a cat stoned before you put in the box with a quantum kill switch...

Then it just makes the experiment way more entertaining.

How's this for a defintion we can move forward with
Logic: the science that studies the formal processes used in thinking and reasoning.
Or
: a science that deals with the principles and criteria of validity of inference and demonstration : the science of the formal principles of reasoning

Not sure what that means? I'm no Sales man, I mostly try to talk people out of what they want. My mode of salesman is to price it in line items. If they sign ok if not, even better.
Too busy for sales tactics these days.

Having thought about your question Frank I think what your saying is I should let bgz simmer where we are and not bring this to it's very near conclusion.
Ok good advice, it's late. to be continued I hope
Bgz is way more fun than Vic

I've read the beginning, the end and bits and pieces... I started out indoctrinated, I went the other direction... just lucky the indoctrination wasn't really enforced;)

I consider it all mythology...

I look at it all the same way you look at Zeuse or Ra.

Just think how you would think if someone told you they believe in the greek gods of old... that's how I think of it all.

Uh... not quite...

Easiest sh*t to sell is fear, uncertainty and doubt... and p*ssy... that stuff flies off the shelf... and drugs... can't forget drugs.

Nm, they're all part of the same set.

Fudd sells!

Is no one going to touch this? "Peer reviewed science" that gives evidence of god....?

You act like he's in your weight class.

Heh...
Regardless of his capabilities, someone needs to point out that a site like icr isn't doing "peer reviewed" research. Or they are, but their peers aren't actual scientists....

For fun, I figured I'd check out where these "peer reviewed" research papers were being published....

-In A. A. Snelling (Ed.) (2008). Proceedings of the Sixth International Conference on Creationism (pp. 87-98). Pittsburgh, PA: Creation Science Fellowship and Dallas, TX: Institute for Creation Research.

- For presentation to the Evangelical Theological Society, Southwest Regional Meeting, March 24, 2007, 9 a.m., at the Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, Fort Worth, Texas.

- RATE II: Radioisotopes and the Age of The Earth: Results of a Young-Earth Creationist Research Initiative, (Volume II), L. Vardiman et al., eds. (San Diego, CA: Institute for Creation Research and the Creation Research Society, 2005)

- Creation Ex Nihilo Technical Journal, volume 14, number 2, 2000, pp. 99-122.

- Presented at the Fourth International Conference on Creationism Pittsburgh, PA, August 3-8, 1998

- n M. Horstemeyer, ed., 2013, Proceedings of the Seventh International Conference on Creationism, Pittsburgh, PA: Creation Science Fellowship. Visit the ICC at www.creationicc.org.


This is a pet peeve of mine... claiming crap like that is on equal footing to actual research

Also, quantum mechanics decimates any concept of a master plan. It's not compatible.

I hate willful ignorance.

I wish you people would make up your mind, you scientists say you don't need to prove there is "no master plan" or "no greater intelligence at work, call it God, Nature or whatever.", and at the same time claiming with authority that there is no "no master plan" or "no greater intelligence at work, call it God, Nature or whatever." You can't prove the existence of something, therefore it doesn't exist? And you say what I said is dumb?
You claim to believe in science but science itself has proven that all life itself from from the smallest archaea to the largest multicellular organisms are part of a greater plan and they are still finding the many ways they are connected and dependent on one another for their survival.
So you think this is all accidental, the random chaotic arrangement of atomic particles?

I didn't say quantum mechanics disproved the existence of god(s)... it destroys the concept of fate. So if your beliefs rely on fate... then your beliefs have been invalidated.

Oh - you are confusing "plan" and "Pattern".
It is a simple mistake.

Do you think that emergent qualities of matter, like salt crystals growing, require divine intervention to work?

If it's a pattern, then what planned the pattern? And where did the elements come from that made the salt compounds that grew into a crystalline structure under the right environmental conditions?
Go ask Victor, he even knows what came first, the chicken or the egg.

There you go, the extra-terrestrial aliens with their magical technology were the original Gods of early man. That spains it! But then...where did the aliens come from? Do the aliens have gods? Or are they progressives like Biden/Harris who view human society like clay, something to mold to their hearts desire with bans and mandates. I would hope the aliens are more intelligent and civilized than the lizard people who claim to rule over us now.

Then where did the matter come from that created the giant stars, that died in massive explosions,spreading elements across the universe?
The "egg came first"? "before then they were some sort of jungle fowl." ?? Where did the jungle fowl come from?

First.. eventually you'll hit my limits... soooooo

Stars are formed in nebula.... down the chain, you're right back at supernova.

Follow the chicken egg back far enough, you'll hit some sort of raptor....

That's about enough splainin I'm willing to do. You want more, go read a book...

I suppose from your perspective God created and oversees every aspect of reality.
And you are free to see it that way. That’s just the way it is.

Just seems like a cop out to me.

if God wanted us to know, we woulda gotten the message

Is this the new 500 thread?

Well, Bgz, I prefer to get you to first admit you believe in universal unchanging logic before I move you to the next and final step. Because if you don't believe in logic and reason I can't use logic and reason to persuade you you are even reading this let alone any higher thoughts of any sort.
So don't be scared go on the record. We stopped at trying to assign an agreeable definition of logic and I offered a few definitions for your assessment.
I promise we're very close to wrapping this apologetic up.

It can't be my logic b it has to be everyone's everywhere all the time. Because that's the WE live in.