Arioch
  • Arioch
  • Enthusiast Topic Starter
22 years ago
Well jackthorn the documentory,last week on Discovery Times Channel showed people being arrested, sanctioned and imprisoned on a regular basis for nothing more than gathering on a street corner to question the human rights and economic situation in Cuba.
But since your few weeks there made you such an expert on the unique Cuban problem maybe you can explain to us all what the problems with Cuba are? They obviously must face some unique dilemma which is holding them back from joining every other country in being at least a modestly successful tropical paradise.
The only difference I can see is that they have suffered under 40+ years of Castro rule. A man who seized power on behalf of the people and then somehow forgot to give it to the people. A man who still claims to be fighting a revolution. Against what? He has ruled the Cuba lock, stock and barrel for decades and the country looks as if it has not moved forward one day in time. A country where people are for the most part afraid to speak their mind in public and when they do they risk being hauled away by the Police.
So please share your 3 weeks of expertise with us and enlighten the great unwashed masses out here about how no one in the world but you, understands the plight of Cuba. While you are at it please enlighten Mr. Castro, he could obviously use someone's advice.
jackthorn
22 years ago
I love the sarcasm of the responses. I never said three weeks made me an expert, did I. I just related what I saw and what I heard. But if you want, I can send you a list of books, many books written by all kinds of people, Cuban and non-Cuban, so that you might understand the complexity of Cuban life. I do not understand how you can see the world in such stark black and white terms. Do you really think it is really so simple that all you have to do is fall back on some well-worn shibboleths. With such a simple perspective you will never understand the dynamics that inform this world and the events that shake it. Lastly, I never said anything very positive about Castro, now did I? So why try to paint me as an apologist? Like I said previously, some folks do like him while others don't. Some don't like him but others like many of the benefits (yes, benefits) that the revolution produced. Any many how have issues with the Cuban state also realize that the US and its embargo plays a role the plight of the people. The people there are not stupid and have a pretty good understanding of foreign politics. Finally, yes, even three weeks wandering around can give one insight, especially if you go to understand rather than hit the resorts. Finally, I know what kind of response I will get for asking this question but what objective academic books, essays and articles have you read by people who are the experts on Cuba?
DrMaddVibe
22 years ago
There wasn't even a hint of sarcasm in my last post. Facts.

I live in and amongst a thriving Cuban community. Because you chose to disobey US sanctions and visit that island don't give me your side of the coin because you drank the kool-aid!

History is not your friend on Cuba. After being there you should've seen that, but appears that you were sheparded to areas that were sanitized for you consummation. You saw what you wanted to see, and now you're telling what you want us to believe.

Nice try, go work some other sucker because you're not jiving me with your "cosmik debris".
jackthorn
22 years ago
nice try my friend. I went legally with papers from the US Treasury Dept. So my trip was acceptable to the government until they changed the rules recently. I came back legally as well. Travel such as this is important for the lines of communication to remain open. The change we want in Cuba is better served by allowing people to visit in both directions. For US citizens to visit Cuba gives many Cubans a better understanding that there is a difference between our government and the people. For us, we gain insight into the issues, problems and opportunities that allow us to develop better policy toward what the Cuban people want or don't want.
Arioch
  • Arioch
  • Enthusiast Topic Starter
22 years ago
Ok this started as a post to poke fun at Castro and his failure to lead the Cuban people to anything that even resembles prosperity.

I can’t speak for others here but I personally have a great deal of sympathy for the people of Cuba. It is Castro and communism that I have a problem with.

Now that I have hopefully made that point clear. I would like to hear any clear and succinct factual points which you have to make which will defend Castro’s 4+decades of failure to lead the Cuban people to prosperity or even good and provable basic human rights. By human rights I mean things like freedom to express ones self in any non-violent way on any topic one chooses in public. The right to gather in public or private to do so etc. Not just those things but it would be a nice start.

Any point you want to make to defend the people of Cuba is unnecessary when talking to me because as I say I have no problem with the people of Cuba. It is the Communist dictator that I addressed my criticism towards.

If as you say you have no love of Castro either then I would not think we even have a disagreement here.

If you do support Castro and the way he has ruled Cuba then please by all means let us continue this discussion.
jackthorn
22 years ago
I like your reply-- thoughtful and honest. I see good and bad in all sides of this issue. Whether we like Castro or not, he is a complex individual who operated under diffcult circumstances and not always in the best interest in his people. Some things have worked out okay, many others haven't. The hard question is why. I have, by the way, family from Honduras and I have traveled in Central America quite a bit over the years and, whatever else is wrong with Cuba and the revolution, there are services that the majority of people in Honduras and Nicaragua will never see, esp if one is poor and landless. That said, I suppose I was a little thin-skinned over the humor. I will at a later posting (I have work to do right now) give some UN, UNDP and UNESCO data on education and health care in Cuba. While the statistics are good compared to many countries in Latin America, it is too bad that the price has to be so high.
donutboy2000
22 years ago
Is that Dr. Laura in the center?
rayder1
21 years ago
Jack...you need to dig a little deeper when you return to Cuba.
As with many others here, I have traveled extensively, both for pleasure and for business. I agree with some on the opinions here that you saw exactly what you were expected to see. Talked to whom you were allowed to talk to, visit places you were supposed to visit and garner opinions that you were supposed to hear.

It is a very experienced communist country that has kept its secrets extremely well for the better part of 50 years. It's not some James Bond movie where espionage lurks at each corner. But the country has been very well controlled and people have been well supressed for a couple generations.

Can people speak freely with you? Nope. Will they....just because you speak Spanish? No. Is the typical person on the street willing to say anything against Cuba or Castro or their way of life to a total stranger...regardless of the reason for your visit...no.

You see...no one knows you there. You say that you have family in Central America. You should be well aware that trust does not come cheap, nor is freely given in that particular society. It is earned, over time. If you are a Gringo like me, then that trust may take months or years. It is admirable that you spent 3 weeks in Cuba. Many of us may never get to visit Cuba.

Those of us who have traveled, and have spent extended time in various countries, know that there is much more to be seen and discovered than 3 weeks allows for.
Having a positive opinion or to say things aren't so bad in Cuba, shows that you need more time there, or maybe spend more time with Cuban exiles to get a true..less rosey...picture.
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