wheelrite
15 years ago

The article makes me sick too.

Just because the article says so doesn't make it true. Re-read what I wrote. See the word "proof"? Where is the "proof". Any phsical evidence? Any admissions by the doctor? Or, is there just the testimony of alleged co-conspiritors at best? (I was once a prosecutor. Also, I have watched and read how similar cases have gone down, including some participation in a trial against an abortionist.)

As to just being contrary, you can beleive whatever you desire, but you are wrong. (Maybe, your vigor concerning the issue is preventing you from claearly fathoming how the REAL legal sytem works.

As to having issues: You don't know the half of it!!!

rfenst wrote:



Robert,,

Surely the Police have abundant evidence .
tailgater
15 years ago

I have read the article over a couple times and don't see where the babies were proven to be viable outside the womb at the time of the abortion. If they weren't viable outside the womb and the abortion ocured within the 24-week period under the law, I don't think they will be able to convict him for murder of the aborted baby. How, other than employees "rolling over on the doctor", will they even prove the babies were born alive and intact?

Look for the defenzse to be something like:

1. The abortion was performed during the foirst and second tri-mester as required by law;
2. None of the babies were born alive;
3. None of the babies were even viable (had they been born alive). The use of the "surgical scisors" as opposed to a scalpal was the fastess way to painlessly end the babies life; and of course
4. The mothers are to blame too for the death of their babies because they wanted the abortion.

As to the number of med-mal lawsuits that, in and of itself, could mean nothing at all given the doctor performs abortions, which include a much greater proportion of claims against doctors than in other areas of medicine.

Lastly, uterus damage/perferation is a well-known risk/complication of even the most [properly performed, safest abortion. I am not saying that negligence may be a cuse of it, just that ever perferation is not necessarily malpractice.

Now, if the only hardcore issue that can be proven is a terribly messy, unclean clinic, then look for a fine and the possible suspension or loss of the doctor's medicle license.

We'll see...

rfenst wrote:




Did you REALLY read it twice and then come to the above conclusions and possilbe defense strategy?
If so, may I suggest a third reading.
While sober.

You're welcome.
HockeyDad
15 years ago
The police could have fabricated the evidence. "Throw Down" aborted fetuses.
tailgater
15 years ago



Just because the article says so doesn't make it true. Re-read what I wrote. See the word "proof"? Where is the "proof". Any phsical evidence? Any admissions by the doctor? Or, is there just the testimony of alleged co-conspiritors at best? (I was once a prosecutor. Also, I have watched and read how similar cases have gone down, including some participation in a trial against an abortionist.)

rfenst wrote:



There is no "proof" because it's just a news blurb.
Technically, the article doesn't provide "proof" that abortions were even conducted, or that this doctor even exists.

The DA has offered information without the obligatory preface of "alleged", which would open him up to slander if it's not true.

Based on the article (our only source of information currently) this appears like an open and shut case.
Until, of course, the ACLU comes storming in to claim the doctor was performing a much needed service in an impovershed area and that considering the circumstances no one could be expected to keep things clean or maintain proper regulations.
That the charges against the doctor are, in fact, making it a crime to perform services to people less fortunate than ourselves.
And who are we to deprive the poor of their right to mutilate er I mean abort their babies?

rfenst
15 years ago

Robert,,

Surely the Police have abundant evidence .

wheelrite wrote:




Like what? His own admission or confession? Video? His own medical records? An aborted baby that they performed an autopsy on? If they have anything tangible or highly credible, they would have included it in their announcement and or press release...

Morover, the very loose, wide-open standard for arrest is merely "a reasonable suspicion" that a crime has occured. That is a much lower standard than any other legal standard I can think of, including "more likely than not", which is the typical civil law standard.

I know how you feel about this issue and I am not saying you are wrong. I am only explaining how this whole thing could easily play out...
wheelrite
15 years ago

Like what? His own admission or confession? Video? His own medical records? An aborted baby that they performed an autopsy on? If they have anything tangible or highly credible, they would have included it in their announcement and or press release...

Morover, the very loose, wide-open standard for arrest is merely "a reasonable suspicion" that a crime has occured. That is a much lower standard than any other legal standard I can think of, including "more likely than not", which is the typical civil law standard.

I know how you feel about this issue and I am not saying you are wrong. I am only explaining how this whole thing could easily play out...

rfenst wrote:



He's a murderer...
rfenst
15 years ago

Reading #37 only confirms why it would be darn near impossible for me to be a lawyer. I am not saying that rfenst would defend this abortion doc, but defending someone like that would be reallly hard to do even if they stayed within the law [barely]. That goes for other criminals, etc, as well. Criminal defense would be tough for me, as I would be very picky about who I would want to defend. My problem is I would lean more towards common sense rather than law at times. 🤔

daveincincy wrote:




Lawyers are rarely ever required to take any case. Beleive it or not, this guy will have no problem atracting a hot-shot, top-shelf lawyer. Lots of publicity to be found here for that lawyer. Also, special interest groups might "chip in".

Criminal defense would be very difficult for me if I felt they were guilty. So is divorce. That is why I don't take those types of cases. But, we should all be thankfull that some lawyers do. In any event, common sense and the truth often have little to do with legal matters.
borndead1
15 years ago

I find quite a degree of difference between killing an innocent unborn baby and the state putting a convicted murderer to death to pay for his or her crimes.

DadZilla3 wrote:



What about the dozens of innocent people that have been put to death?

Forget the circumstances for a minute and concentrate on the physical act itself. The physical act of strapping a person into a chair and injecting them with a drug that stops their heart. The physical act of putting a person inside a gas chamber and gassing them. It is the premeditated ending of a person's life with forethought and intent. It is murder. And it is a right I do not believe the government should have. There are very few rights and powers I think government should have, but that's another debate.


P.S. This discussion has been very civil so far. Let's not ruin it, guys. These types of discussions need to take place.

rfenst
15 years ago

This discussion has been very civil so far. Let's not ruin it, guys. These types of discussions need to take place.

borndead1 wrote:



+1
uncleb
15 years ago

What about the dozens of innocent people that have been put to death?

Forget the circumstances for a minute and concentrate on the physical act itself. The physical act of strapping a person into a chair and injecting them with a drug that stops their heart. The physical act of putting a person inside a gas chamber and gassing them. It is the premeditated ending of a person's life with forethought and intent. It is murder. And it is a right I do not believe the government should have. There are very few rights and powers I think government should have, but that's another debate.


P.S. This discussion has been very civil so far. Let's not ruin it, guys. These types of discussions need to take place.

borndead1 wrote:


This is where I struggle with the death penalty. While I support it in theory, the fact is that our judicial system is too flawed and convicting innocent people all too common.
DadZilla3
15 years ago

Forget the circumstances for a minute and concentrate on the physical act itself. The physical act of strapping a person into a chair and injecting them with a drug that stops their heart. The physical act of putting a person inside a gas chamber and gassing them. It is the premeditated ending of a person's life with forethought and intent. It is murder.

borndead1 wrote:


You cannot forget the circumstances in my opinion. That is at the heart of the matter. There is a vast difference when person being put to death is an innocent unborn child on the one hand, or a person convicted by a jury of his or her peers of a crime so heinous that they've received the death penalty on the other.
Kawak
15 years ago
Are scissors covered under Obama care? 🤔
dpnewell
15 years ago

Like what? His own admission or confession? Video? His own medical records? An aborted baby that they performed an autopsy on?.

rfenst wrote:



Bingo! The idiot kept the remains of some of the late term babies in a freezer. Seems from the remains, the prosecution can prove 8, though they expect he murdered hundreds more. This investigation has been going on for almost a year, so the prosecution probably has all the proof they need.

Heard another sick part of this today on local Philly news. One of his assistants who has also been charged with murder had one of these babies she was trying to abort born alive. According to the news, she played with the live baby for 20 minutes, and then sliced it's throat. Can't even image such a thing. Hope it's not true.
daveincincy
15 years ago


Forget the circumstances for a minute and concentrate on the physical act itself. The physical act of strapping a person into a chair and injecting them with a drug that stops their heart. The physical act of putting a person inside a gas chamber and gassing them. It is the premeditated ending of a person's life with forethought and intent. It is murder. And it is a right I do not believe the government should have.

borndead1 wrote:



I'm sure there are a few citizens that would be up for taking that job over for the government.


P.S. This discussion has been very civil so far. Let's not ruin it, guys. These types of discussions need to take place.

borndead1 wrote:



Screw you! 🖐


Are scissors covered under Obama care? 🤔

Kawak wrote:



Yes, but only with a note of medical necessity from a doctor.
jguthner
15 years ago
I'm not too smart on all this legal mumbo-jumbo, but the 300-page Grand Jury report seems like some pretty good "evidence" to me. Sure, a lot of it is just accusations, but there's testimony in there from medical professionals, autopsy results, and the toughest for me to swallow: photographs.

As a parent, it took me several hours and multiple sittings to make it through the entire thing...pretty rough stuff. If you care to read it:

http://www.phila.gov/districtattorney/grandJury_WomensMedical.html 

Also an interesting point that seems to have resulted in almost no conversation here or otherwise: This whole thing was kicked off by the death/murder of a patient of his after receiving unregulated drugs during a procedure...for which there IS proof (medical & first responders to the clinic). I know the abortion angle is much more "glamorous" and newsworthy, but it looks fairly probable that he will go down, if only for that offense alone.
tailgater
15 years ago

What about the dozens of innocent people that have been put to death?

Forget the circumstances for a minute and concentrate on the physical act itself. The physical act of strapping a person into a chair and injecting them with a drug that stops their heart. The physical act of putting a person inside a gas chamber and gassing them. It is the premeditated ending of a person's life with forethought and intent. It is murder. And it is a right I do not believe the government should have. There are very few rights and powers I think government should have, but that's another debate.


P.S. This discussion has been very civil so far. Let's not ruin it, guys. These types of discussions need to take place.

borndead1 wrote:




Makes perfect sense.
Except that you're making Dadzilla's point about the "Degree of difference".
You speak of "dozens" of innocent people.
But how many tens of thousands (probably higher) have been aborted?.
And EVERY ONE OF THEM was innocent.

It's like comparing a bullet to a nuclear warhead. Sure, they both can kill. But be realistic.

As for the physical act of killing a person? Ask a cop from a decent sized metropolis if he'd be OK with flipping the switch.
When you see the vile acts that the death row inmates have committed it eases the conflict that many of us would fear.

Besides, you have no say in this matter.
With a name like borndead you're obviously biased!

tailgater
15 years ago

In all honesty, if the murder of child was proven to be true with iron clad evidence, I would sing and dance while I killed the bugger who did it.

I'd do an Irish Jig while injecting the poison.
Or sing zip-a-dee-do-da while zapping his sorry ass with 100k Volts.

Then I'd do it again just to make sure.

And yes.
I'm serious.

DrMaddVibe
15 years ago
Scissors...vacuums...whatever it takes right?

Scotch?
Whistlebritches
15 years ago

In all honesty, if the murder of child was proven to be true with iron clad evidence, I would sing and dance while I killed the bugger who did it.

I'd do an Irish Jig while injecting the poison.
Or sing zip-a-dee-do-da while zapping his sorry ass with 100k Volts.

Then I'd do it again just to make sure.

And yes.
I'm serious.

tailgater wrote:




All this and a Patriots fan.....I like you.

We need to have a big party and sever the abortionist spinal cord with a cheap pair of dull scissors.

Ron
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