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MikeyRavioli
Herf-A-Holic

14 years ago

#341

Here in NY they are in the news everyday

Every broadcast - every newspaper

HockeyDad
Herf-A-Holic Topic Starter

14 years ago

#342

That would suck. I hope they don't migrate down here when the weather turns like all the other New Yorkers do.

MikeyRavioli
Herf-A-Holic

14 years ago

#343

Not all others HD. Only times I have visited Florida (or as I like to call it "God's waiting room") in the last 10yrs has been for business

FuzzNJ
Herf-A-Holic

14 years ago

#344

I am not going to defend the tea party but if you want to make that point - the tea party is a subset within an organized political party. They have held events which were legal with permits, sanitation, and bathrooms. Events which did not involve taking over private property. There is a tea party message. There are tea party candidates. Here in NY one ran for Governor. I chose to vote for Cuomo over Paladino and Cuomo won.

Again I am not a member or supporter of the tea party but if you want to compare the tea party is waaaaaay ahead. OWS is disorganized, anarchanisitc, and illegal.

and based on the article extreme left wing radicals that are for wealth redistribution and against capitolism and willing to use violence to achieve their goals. Democratic pollsters have advised the party to stay away.

MikeyRavioli wrote:

I wasn't asking you to defend, I was asking for you to look at each movement with the same critical eye using similar criteria since the two 'movements' are being compared to one another.

There is a tea party message, as there is an OWS message. The TP message is one that you see as clear and precise, but that has to be only because you would be ignoring the even more radical fringe of the movement.

The OWS movement you say has no message, yet in the third paragraph you outlined precisely what you think their message is, however it is the message of only the more radical fringe of the movement, not the more clear and precise message as defined and put out by those protesting as voted on by the people there.

We have already agreed that legal does not equal moral and illegal does not equal immoral, so that alone is not enough to dismiss any movement as other movements even in our own country have purposely broken laws to achieve their goals.

Finally, advising politicians to avoid the OWS protesters is a great idea. Why? They are not advocating for a particular party, unlike the tea party who said they were independent, but were not as you have stated in your first sentence.

In taking all these things into consideration it would be more reasonable to take the issues being addressed into consideration and how best to make this country stronger rather than just dismissing everyone as not being 'true Americans', don't you think?

FuzzNJ
Herf-A-Holic

14 years ago

#345

Not all others HD. Only times I have visited Florida (or as I like to call it "God's waiting room") in the last 10yrs has been for business

MikeyRavioli wrote:

Mikey and I have something in common after all. 😉

MikeyRavioli
Herf-A-Holic

14 years ago

#346

I never dismissed them as not being "true Americans". I dismissed them because they arent offering anything. They have done a wonderful job of pointing a spotlight on the anger over the current economic situation. But thats it. Anger. How about a solution? An idea (other than kill the rich). A candidate? Something.

The Republican party saw the popularity of the tea party and absorbed them giving them an even larger platform and legitimacy. If OWS is so popular and the place to be then why hasn't the Democratic party been welcoming them with open arms? Even using the "enemy of my enemy is my friend" theory OWS is too scary for the DNC.

Edited by user 14 years ago | Reason: Not specified

FuzzNJ
Herf-A-Holic

14 years ago

#347

MikeyRavioli wrote:

Do you have a 'solution'? I mean a specific policy that will correct the economic downturn? Our leaders don't even have that. I wouldn't expect American citizens to either to be honest. I would expect them to show their anger and put pressure on those in charge to change focus. And c'mon, kill the rich? You can stop the hyperbole.

Politicians are not going to embrace anything unless they think it will get them votes. Very few republicans embraced the tea party movement 2 months in. Remember too, this is a movement on the left and the president is supposedly on the left, which really isn't the case.

MikeyRavioli
Herf-A-Holic

14 years ago

#348

Do I? I am not a politician nor an I am protester, But sorta.

Its obvious that I favor a flat tax. If thats in place abolish the tax code, loop holes, and the decrease the IRS. Every individual who earns money pays X%. Every corporation who earns money pays Y%.

Secondly, the fastest path to a stronger economy is jobs. More people working means more people paying tax revenue into the pot and less people taking money out of the pot in the form of benefits. Create jobs - earn a tax break. Not hand out tax breaks to corporations and keep your fingers crossed that that turns into jobs. Jobs first. For every X,XXX jobs created corporations get .YY% tax break. Hiring veterans earns you double credits. Let the reduced IRS manage that.

Edited by user 14 years ago | Reason: Not specified

MikeyRavioli
Herf-A-Holic

14 years ago

#349

Politicians are not going to embrace anything unless they think it will get them votes.

FuzzNJ wrote:

Your poll statistics would indicate that OWS is as popular as hot dogs and beer at a ball game. You would think embracing them would all but guarantee a complete victory.

FuzzNJ
Herf-A-Holic

14 years ago

#350

MikeyRavioli wrote:

Fantastic. Go start a movement then. Put those ideas forward. The flat tax proposition will be hammered from all sides though for being a huge increase for the middle class and lower and a huge decrease for the wealthiest, the same problem we're talking about now and trying to solve. This doesn't seem to be the standard position of a Cuomo voter either.

The second paragraph contradicts the first though, does it not? Flat tax with no loop holes, then you immediately start creating breaks and loop holes. Not saying that your breaks are necessarily bad, it's just no longer a flat tax anymore.

Your group of protesters has reached its first obstacle and may never recover with critics such as yourself.

Don't you think by acting as if these issues and the Americans who are bringing them up are crazy and worthless of consideration out of hand, even though you say their goals are just, you are part of the problem instead of the solution? I'm seeing a lot of criticism that if the same logic were applied to the tea party would apply as well, yet somehow it's all 'different' for one reason or another. Most of these reasons I have pointed out really don't have merit since when they are applied to other movements with which you and others agree they fall flat, which would be the standard for logical consistency. The only thing that remains consistent is the inconsistency.

Whether or not one agrees or disagrees with any particular movement, that fact should stand out if trying to think critically and without bias. I will admit it's hard to do and I'm not always successful, but when I find a somewhat reasonable person I try to be a bit more nuanced and detailed in my arguments in the hopes that the other person will do the same. Usually I get 'you're a commie' or 'idiot' or something to do with cookies, cooking or being a stay at home dad with health issues.

FuzzNJ
Herf-A-Holic

14 years ago

#351

Your poll statistics would indicate that OWS is as popular as hot dogs and beer at a ball game. You would think embracing them would all but guarantee a complete victory.

MikeyRavioli wrote:

You would think, but it's too new and the numbers not strong enough for anyone whose livelihood depends on votes to get behind 100% yet. Besides, the protesters are protesting them. Kind of hard to be for something that wants you to get the hell out of office because you haven't done your job right.

MikeyRavioli
Herf-A-Holic

14 years ago

#352

If I was actually trying to advance my agenda I would have worded it more carefully so that the two main points don't contradict. I do favor a flat tax with the only deviation being a deduction for job creation. I might even hire someone to write it out a little better than I did on the spot on a discount cigar sites message board.

Secondly, they are treated differently because they are different. Even disregarding the legality issues, one is a recognized movement adopted by one of the two major parties with a unified message and cadidates who try to get elected and work within the system to affect change. One isn't. They are a pariah to organized politics whose closest resemblance to an agenda is making people re-think the status quo.

and as far as your last paragraph - much like tea party supporters I don't fall into that group either.

MikeyRavioli
Herf-A-Holic

14 years ago

#353

2010 was the second year in a row that General Electric recorded billions in profits and paid no taxes.
That doesn't happen with a flat tax with only exemptions for job creation unless GE single handedly solves the unemployment problem.

and if they did, then they deserve to pay no taxes. Its a push against what they for the alst two years except now there are millions more Americans earning paychecks and paying into the tax system.

Edited by user 14 years ago | Reason: Not specified

FuzzNJ
Herf-A-Holic

14 years ago

#354

They are a pariah to organized politics whose closest resemblance to an agenda is making people re-think the status quo.

MikeyRavioli wrote:

You say that like it's a bad thing. 😉

MikeyRavioli
Herf-A-Holic

14 years ago

#355

On its own merit no its not a bad thing but its not a good thing either.

Its like making a fat person think about diet and exercise. Its great to get the thought into his head but it doesnt actually make him lose any weight.

DrMaddVibe
Herf-A-Holic

14 years ago

#356

FuzzNJ wrote:

Keep on hugging to those polls.

America has turned their collective backs on OWS and their poopy messages.

Or to put it in a way you're sure to understand...

America...

Doesn't want...

Dirty People...

Peeing and pooping...

In their parks....

and on their doorsteps...

They also...

Don't like...

Twinkles.

Edited by user 14 years ago | Reason: Not specified

FuzzNJ
Herf-A-Holic

14 years ago

#357

Secondly, they are treated differently because they are different. Even disregarding the legality issues, one is a recognized movement adopted by one of the two major parties with a unified message and cadidates who try to get elected and work within the system to affect change.

MikeyRavioli wrote:

That is another thing that you have said a few times, the tea party is either a sub-set of a political party, or it has been adopted by it. This of course is true, but if you were to ask a tea party person they would disagree. They like to consider themselves outsiders, free from any party labels and therefore uncorrupted by party politics, and there are a bunch of different groups without a single message either. Sure, a lot are similar, but not the same. Some focus more on gun issues, others more on tax issues or spending/bail out issues, or national security etc. Another criticism of OWS, not a single message. The tea party movement is much older than 2 months and still there are splinter groups all over the place all claiming the tea party label. So again, whether or not you are a supporter of anything or anyone or any group or movement, using the same criteria and critical eye for each would probably be the more rational approach, don't you think?

Our Philosophy

Tea Party Patriots, Inc. as an organization believes in the Fiscal Responsibility, Constitutionally Limited Government, and Free Markets. Tea Party Patriots, Inc. is a non-partisan grassroots organization of individuals united by our core values derived from the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution of the United States of America, the Bill Of Rights as explained in the Federalist Papers.

http://www.teapartypatriots.org/Mission.aspx

What is the Tea Party?
The Tea Party is a grassroots movement that calls awareness to any issue that challenges the security, sovereignty, or domestic tranquility of our beloved nation, the United States of America.

From our founding, the Tea Party is the voice of the true owners of the United States, WE THE PEOPLE.

http://www.teaparty.org/about.php

THE NETWORK

Patriot Action Network is the nation’s largest conservative social action network, serving hundreds of thousands of citizens every month. We are united by our passion for re-establishing Constitution-based liberty and limited government through dialogue, debate, legislation and elections.

1.8 MILLION MEMBERS NATIONWIDE

Not only is the Patriot Action Network the LARGEST active social hub of the Patriot Movement… we’re also the official social action network of Grassfire Nation and the 1.8 MILLION PATRIOT members of Grassfire.com.

http://www.patriotactionnetwork.com/about-us/

Patriots Tea Party

Educate • Inspire • Empower

We are everyday Americans from all walks of life, diverse of origin, religious or party persuasion, concerned about the direction that our country has been headed for the last few years.

http://www.teaparty-patriots.com/Mission.htm

FuzzNJ
Herf-A-Holic

14 years ago

#358

MikeyRavioli wrote:

Not really. The fat person wouldn't be concerned about losing his or her job or position from millions of angry people in that scenario.

HockeyDad
Herf-A-Holic Topic Starter

14 years ago

#359

This thread is not about the Tea Party. Occupy Wall Street cannot gravytrain any credibility off the Tea Party. OWS needs to stand on its own merits or fail.

FuzzNJ
Herf-A-Holic

14 years ago

#360

This thread is not about the Tea Party. Occupy Wall Street cannot gravytrain any credibility off the Tea Party. OWS needs to stand on its own merits or fail.

HockeyDad wrote:

True. But each criticism of the OWS that has been brought up here can be shown to apply to other movements that the same people find either honorable, worthwhile or at the very minimum not objectionable. Even the problems raised by the OWS protesters most people agree need to be dealt with. So what should be focused on is how to deal with these issues and make the country stronger, not these superfluous nonsense that the partisan media is using to turn it into an 'us vs them' thing again.

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