ZRX1200
14 years ago
Koom bye Ahhhhh......
Pheloniousmunk
14 years ago

#35 they were given a seat on the board.

ZRX1200 wrote:


Totally forgot about that! I have to agree, a union should never have a seat on the Board of Directors of a company receiving taxpayer funds, IMO. If a totally privately or investor funded company wants to have a union making business decisions for them, that's their perogative.
JadeRose
14 years ago

Robert its not that I don't see the validity in your argument. And I do hope for success for GM.

Jade I don't harbor ill will towards union members as a whole (though first and second hand experience leave me uh....jaded) and like I said the bonuses themselves don't anger me.

You wont catch me buying a GM product though.

ZRX1200 wrote:




I'm not a Union guy either. I spent a long time in one and hated every second of it. But with all the doom and gloom in today's world, it is nice to hear of a success story and I like hearing about the little guy getting a little piece of the pie. Where the hell else would you rather our tax dollars go, if not to help keep Americans in jobs? (Unless you are like DMV and seem to somehow think that American auto workers are all unworthy scumbags.) We need those jobs. We need roads and bridges and power grid upgrades. We need to get back to building things. As I said in an earlier post. We need to stop sending ANY money to other countries and focus here at home.
ZRX1200
14 years ago
We need up stop spending money we don't have period. The money should go to running the government to the point that the constitution grants them enumerated powers.

I have no qualms with the little guys.

rfenst
14 years ago

Totally forgot about that! I have to agree, a union should never have a seat on the Board of Directors of a company receiving taxpayer funds, IMO. If a totally privately or investor funded company wants to have a union making business decisions for them, that's their perogative.

Pheloniousmunk wrote:




The best candidates for seats on a board of directors are those who can bring new ideas, perspectives and thoughts. Even better when a director has the ability to influence non-directors. If the union has the goods, I see no problem at all.
JadeRose
14 years ago

Totally forgot about that! I have to agree, a union should never have a seat on the Board of Directors of a company receiving taxpayer funds, IMO. If a totally privately or investor funded company wants to have a union making business decisions for them, that's their perogative.

Pheloniousmunk wrote:





Why? The employees have as much, if not more, stake in the companies success than anyone else. Everyone seems to look at union members as being good-for-nothing, useless, pieces of crap. They are Americans...just like you or I. I've known many many many hard working intelligent people who are members of a union. I am NOT a union supporter but I am a supporter of my fellow Americans and of American jobs. Given a stake in their own futures will only help the union to bolster GM's future business. Not drag it down as in years past. I just don't get where some of you guys are coming from other than drinking the Fox News, Koch Bros. union hater-aid. I've always considered unions to be counter-productive and out of date with the times but with the current extreme anti-labor ideologies currently in vogue in this country, unions are needed more now than at any time since the 1920's.

or maybe you'd rather have China building your Chevy's and GMC's. I sure as hell don't. If we lose the auto industry, we are fuqed.
DrMaddVibe
14 years ago

I'm not a Union guy either. I spent a long time in one and hated every second of it. But with all the doom and gloom in today's world, it is nice to hear of a success story and I like hearing about the little guy getting a little piece of the pie. Where the hell else would you rather our tax dollars go, if not to help keep Americans in jobs? (Unless you are like DMV and seem to somehow think that American auto workers are all unworthy scumbags.) We need those jobs. We need roads and bridges and power grid upgrades. We need to get back to building things. As I said in an earlier post. We need to stop sending ANY money to other countries and focus here at home.

JadeRose wrote:




At first I thought you had something valid to say, you don't.

Stop personalizing what I'm saying and perhaps the coin will drop. GM put itself in the place it is by promising "cradle-to-grave" entitlements. Executives and the Unions both ate the "golden goose" from both sides. The more they made the more voracious the appetite. They made bold purchases to expand their brand and influence like grabbing Hughes and Electronic Data Systems and folding it into their nameplate. The UAW bought golf courses and resorts. They became monolithic and trodded towards their demise like the dinosaur death march from the Disney ride. They couldn't help themselves, BUT they were going to charge more to make up the difference.

Now, they took American taxpayer money to keep their brand alive. They haven't paid the debt off...watch the YouTube I posted earlier...it's done a lot better and more concise than I could put it!...they haven't addressed the entitlements...but now all of a sudden they claim they make RECORD PROFITS and offer up bonuses. Lets put it in a way you "might" understand, because you seem to think I loathe the union workers and have gone waaaay out of your way to try to make that point when it's not even there...A neighbor hits you up for 1000.00 bucks. Says he really needs it...needs an operation...repairs...whatever the excuse. You've loaned him your hedgeclippers before...he returned them. You loaned him your power washer...he returned them. So, against the will of your spouse you decide to loan him the money. He says thanks and he's good for it and all. Even gives you a 250.00 payment back and says he's good for it. Then he pulls up with balloons and candy for the children on your street...even brings in a clown for the kids. The entire neighborhood thinks he's one swell dude. He hasn't made another payment to you since the 250.00. NOW...he says that the entire house is going to need to be upgraded with new plumbing and electricity and wants to hit you up for ANOTHER loan. THAT is exactly what GM is doing. The part of the taxpayer is played by your spouse and to some extent...you. The neighbor...GM and the neighborhood that thinks he's swell...Wall Street. See, GM is going to get MORE breaks on updating their manufacturing plants. Tax breaks on the ones they already have and no timetable to pay the debt off, but you go ahead and try to blame a bad attitude on me. It doesn't wash for a second.

Like I stated in a post before you took a header into the unfilled pool...when we repeal NAFTA and get serious about getting the taxpayer's money back then we can move forward towards restoring any sembalance of a strong manufacturing sector. Until then it's all propped up with IOU's on the backs of kids that had no part of the debts and the unborn that aren't even here yet! You keep on thinking we're bitching about the unions though. Really. That pig doesn't fly.
DrMaddVibe
ZRX1200
14 years ago
So are the genius iginuitive union board members the ones who were pushing that wonderful Volt?
topper7788
14 years ago

In a word, yes. They went right back to the same, failed business model, and they had to be bailed out again, right behind GM.

\:D/

snowwolf777 wrote:



Wow, are you totally wrong on this.. Unfortunately I'm old enough to have been a manager at a Dodge dealership back during the 1st "bailout". Well first thing you have to understand it WAS NOT A BAIL OUT.. NOT ONE DOLLAR of tax payer money went to Chrysler at he time... It was as loan GAURANTEE... Chrysler was less than a week away from closing down when the deal finalized.. Yes I know that for a fact as my dealer at he time was Potamkin and I was on a conference call with Lee Iaccoca and Victor Potamkin when Voctor was told "I"ll tell you Friday if your still a Dodge dealer Monday"(they were long time friends). This was a very late Tuesday night when we where trying to decide if Chrysler folded weather we would stay open as a used car dealer or close till another franchise could be obtained..

I was also in Atlanta about a month earlier locked in a very large room with Lee Iacocca when he flew around the country and held 4 regional meetings where he told the dealers if we don't have 50,000 orders this week your out of business in 30 days as that was all the cash they had left and the government wanted to see the a viable business plan now! . (Iacocca was the best car salesman in history) I still remember the phone call back to my dealer letting him know I had the choice of ordering about 100 vehicles or he would be getting a termination letter in 3 days!!

Those loans were paid back early with interest, THOUSANDS of jobs were saved, and Chrysler went on for many years to pay billions in payroll, taxes etc..

To say it was a failure, wrong etc in anyway is just SO SO WRONG... (and yes the product SUCKED, but we sold the begeebeezes out of it!)
topper7788
14 years ago

So being pro-active is not commendable? Kicking the can down the road like GM and Chrysler and then letting the government come in to save you when it caught up to is good business ? The UAW had much to do with this, first by the demands in pay and benefit packages that are completely out of line for work performed. It took many years to slowly bring it here but even a pin hole in the bottom of the bucket will drain it. Then the refusal to take cuts to preserve their jobs was selfish on their ( the rank and file) part.
If the Ford family sole purpose was to keep control then so be it, but I doubt that was the entire reason. Who says that is bad business ? The steps they took kept the company afloat worked, and kept their employees working. Should it be more commendable than letting the government come in and get their hands in it ? In my mind absolutely!
I have never been a Ford guy, I live where GM factories are a big part of the economy, they are always in the news here and always need a tax break or grant of some kind to bribe them into adding more jobs. I work right up the road from the plant DMV noted earlier and know many people who work their. I have family that works in another plant and always get the GM discount but last May I bought my last GM vehicle. I will put my money with a company like Ford next time, at least they had the vision to see where they were headed and took steps to keep it working, even if it was just to keep control it worked.
When did it become wrong to want to keep control of a company that bears your family name ? It seems to me that they still have a vision for the company and would rather put their reputation on the line rather than to a bunch of shareholders whose intentions may not be the same.

dubleuhb wrote:




Your missing my point, I'm not saying its wrong in anyway... I admire that the Ford family went all in with Ford Motor Company, there was some real talk that they would blow off their holding and exit, but that obviously never happened. Very few families would have, look at what happened with Budweiser. They took he money and ran, their family decision was not to fight to maintain control of the family business. Bill Ford is a good guy and was smart enough to realize he wasn't smart enough to save the company on his own....

But the comments that Ford was in any way noble, pro America etc is just wrong... And yes if there was no Ford family still involved with Ford they would have gone down the same path as GM (it was the better business move) GM is cleaner now with far less baggage as compared to Ford.. The path Ford took was ONLY because it was in the best interest of the Ford family.. Again, not that there is anything wrong with that...
DrMaddVibe
14 years ago

Iacocca was the best car salesman in history

topper7788 wrote:



You can sell it when you KNOW it..inside and out!

I firmly believe that's because he understood what it took to actually MAKE a car. THAT is what's missing. Even Ford fired him despite his success there. Who knows, perhaps they were threatened.

http://www.woopidoo.com/biography/lee-iacocca/index.htm 

When he went to the American people via tv commercials he was believable. He was trusted. You can't say that for the guys running the places now. Go to the websites and look who's on their Board of Directors...look where they came from. Yeah, they really know their cars!

http://www.gm.com/company/board-of-directors 

and Chrysler...wll Fiat now owns them. A company that didn't even have a showroom in the US because it made such crappy cars people didn't want them here. Think they're really going to turn Chrysler around? They had their day in the sun and if a company like Daimler-Benz cannot make a go of it with their knowledge then perhaps it's time to let it go like the other car companies before it. Can they both make a good car...yes. I'm not talking about quality or marketshare. I'm talking about their business model. It's broke and financed by the American taxpayer. You didn't vote on it. Your voices weren't heard. Washington DC thought it best to decide your outcome like it has many times before. This time they took public traded companies...because they could.

The "wrinkle" in this one to the story I created a couple of posts ago would akin this to the neighbor borrowing your power washer and hedge clippers and selling them. Still never sent any money back.
topper7788
14 years ago

You can sell it when you KNOW it..inside and out!

I firmly believe that's because he understood what it took to actually MAKE a car. THAT is what's missing. Even Ford fired him despite his success there. Who knows, perhaps they were threatened.

http://www.woopidoo.com/biography/lee-iacocca/index.htm 

When he went to the American people via tv commercials he was believable. He was trusted. You can't say that for the guys running the places now. Go to the websites and look who's on their Board of Directors...look where they came from. Yeah, they really know their cars!

http://www.gm.com/company/board-of-directors 

and Chrysler...wll Fiat now owns them. A company that didn't even have a showroom in the US because it made such crappy cars people didn't want them here. Think they're really going to turn Chrysler around? They had their day in the sun and if a company like Daimler-Benz cannot make a go of it with their knowledge then perhaps it's time to let it go like the other car companies before it. Can they both make a good car...yes. I'm not talking about quality or marketshare. I'm talking about their business model. It's broke and financed by the American taxpayer. You didn't vote on it. Your voices weren't heard. Washington DC thought it best to decide your outcome like it has many times before. This time they took public traded companies...because they could.

DrMaddVibe wrote:



Well we at least agree on half of the above 🇨🇮

Iacocca was the quite the frontman, wrote a couple of good books too... As far as the New Chrysler, who know, the guy that now runs it along with Fiat Group group is VERY sharp and a smart smart car guy... They seem to have a plan, and thanks to the current need for vehicles is giving them a good start...

It will in the long term come down to one thing. PRODUCT, (it always does) will the new Chrysler bring to marker vehicles that sell... No more no less.... Time will tell, I wouldn't bet against them and if I had the right opertunity would have no issue investing in a Chrysler brand store now...(I wouldn't have said that 2 years ago)
DrMaddVibe
14 years ago

Well we at least agree on half of the above 🇨🇮

Iacocca was the quite the frontman, wrote a couple of good books too... As far as the New Chrysler, who know, the guy that now runs it along with Fiat Group group is VERY sharp and a smart smart car guy... They seem to have a plan, and thanks to the current need for vehicles is giving them a good start...

It will in the long term come down to one thing. PRODUCT, (it always does) will the new Chrysler bring to marker vehicles that sell... No more no less.... Time will tell, I wouldn't bet against them and if I had the right opertunity would have no issue investing in a Chrysler brand store now...(I wouldn't have said that 2 years ago)

topper7788 wrote:




I'm going to put Daimler-Benz and Fiat on a see-saw...which one is grounded? Which one is in the clouds?

That's where I'm putting my decision on. That said, I thought it was a travesty to shutter the dealerships the manner in which they did. Locally, they kept some of the worst and scuttled one of THE finest.

Like I said...They made the decisions.
topper7788
14 years ago

I'm going to put Daimler-Benz and Fiat on a see-saw...which one is grounded? Which one is in the clouds?

That's where I'm putting my decision on. That said, I thought it was a travesty to shutter the dealerships the manner in which they did. Locally, they kept some of the worst and scuttled one of THE finest.

Like I said...They made the decisions.

DrMaddVibe wrote:



The "merger" of the old Chrysler with Daimler was a disaster from day one There was ZERO cinagy between the two companies and the infighting was rediculas. It was truly doomed from the start...

The deal with Fiat has lots more going for it and truly has lots of opertunity for parts and platform sharing... There are really some opertunities for cost savings etc.. The Fiat management doesnt seem to look down at the Chrysler guys like the Germans did.. There were many cases in the Daimler days when there was a disagreement and a couple of days later the Amercan senior manager "resigned" When a executive stood up and said something on behalf of the Amercan dealer it was odds on he would be gone shortly...

What was done to the Chrysler dealers was a travesty, many of my friends lost there stores, I had one friend who had just compleTed a $5,000,000 renovation and received the termination latter less han 60 days after!! He lost everything as did many dealers.. My partners lost there Chrysler branded stores which was what led to having to sell ours...While they (my partners) were a-holes anyway, I would probably still be a dealer if their stores were not terminated...
DrMaddVibe
14 years ago

The "merger" of the old Chrysler with Daimler was a disaster from day one There was ZERO cinagy between the two companies and the infighting was rediculas. It was truly doomed from the start...

The deal with Fiat has lots more going for it and truly has lots of opertunity for parts and platform sharing... There are really some opertunities for cost savings etc.. The Fiat management doesnt seem to look down at the Chrysler guys like the Germans did.. There were many cases in the Daimler days when there was a disagreement and a couple of days later the Amercan senior manager "resigned" When a executive stood up and said something on behalf of the Amercan dealer it was odds on he would be gone shortly...

What was done to the Chrysler dealers was a travesty, many of my friends lost there stores, I had one friend who had just compleTed a $5,000,000 renovation and received the termination latter less han 60 days after!! He lost everything as did many dealers.. My partners lost there Chrysler branded stores which was what led to having to sell ours...While they (my partners) were a-holes anyway, I would probably still be a dealer if their stores were not terminated...

topper7788 wrote:





The Chrysler 300 is the synergy from both companies. They truly created a cheaper version of a european sedan with an engine to boot. Daimler wanted ROI and they often claimed they would put the American products in showrooms overseas and vice versa when in fact it never happened. The one item I do know that they coveted and kept after the merger was the research and development on fuel cell technology. I keep looking for the Mercedes Benz that's going to have it. A doomed economy sealed the deal and they cut and ran. To them it was survival and they would do better with taking a hit than keeping the anvil that would drag them down.

http://www.fiatusa.com 

Unless Chrysler is making roller skates I don't know what parts they're gonna cross use! I keed!

Wish them well and if I was going to buy a car...a real car...I prolly would buy the Dodge Challenger, but I'm a truck guy. After buying a new F250 I'm kinda set for awhile!



ZRX1200
14 years ago
GM killed a light duty truck/suv diesel motor that had already been developed and tooled. Instead we got the Volt.

I would love a half ton diesel or suv.
topper7788
14 years ago

The Chrysler 300 is the synergy from both companies. They truly created a cheaper version of a european sedan with an engine to boot. Daimler wanted ROI and they often claimed they would put the American products in showrooms overseas and vice versa when in fact it never happened. The one item I do know that they coveted and kept after the merger was the research and development on fuel cell technology. I keep looking for the Mercedes Benz that's going to have it. A doomed economy sealed the deal and they cut and ran. To them it was survival and they would do better with taking a hit than keeping the anvil that would drag them down.

http://www.fiatusa.com 

Unless Chrysler is making roller skates I don't know what parts they're gonna cross use! I keed!

Wish them well and if I was going to buy a car...a real car...I prolly would buy the Dodge Challenger, but I'm a truck guy. After buying a new F250 I'm kinda set for awhile!



DrMaddVibe wrote:



For starters:

Fiat wanted back in the North American market, Chrysler brings that access... Chrysler desperately needed small car platforms and tech, Fiat brings that... The New Dart is the first Fiat assisted small car for Chrysler and it looks VERY good....

Again, only time will tell, but since my first job in the car business was at a Chrysler - Plymouth store and I spent over 20 years selling Chrysler brand products it will always have somewhat of a soft spot for me...
Stinkdyr
14 years ago

Like when you have a cancerous tumor that is cut out, chemotherapeuticly bombarded or irradiated to death? No, that is NOT a good thing at all.

rfenst wrote:






Ahhhh no, Creative Destruction is a commonly known term in modern Economics:

>> Creative destruction can cause temporary economic distress. Layoffs of workers with obsolete working skills can be one price of new innovations valued by consumers. Though a continually innovating economy generates new opportunities for workers to participate in more creative and productive enterprises (provided they can acquire the necessary skills), creative destruction can cause severe hardship in the short term, and in the long term for those who cannot acquire the skills and work experience.

However, some believe that in the long-term society as a whole (including the descendants of those that experienced short-term hardship) enjoys a rise in overall quality of life due to the accumulation of innovation - for example, 90% of Americans were farmers in 1790, while 2.6% of Americans were farmers in 1990.[25] Over those 200 years farm jobs were destroyed by exponential productivity gains in agricultural technology and replaced by jobs in new industries. Present day farmers and non-farmers alike enjoy much more prosperous lifestyles than their counterparts in 1790. >>
teedubbya
14 years ago
near death yes. death no. ^


By the way the whole union thing is silly. I have no use for unions and guess I would be mildly anti-union. But the best organizaitonal model in my mind is one in which management and workers work together towards the same end. If this includes a union so be it. If not great. But this us/them or rabid anti union stance isn't productive in my opinion. If the focus is pointing at the other side (which unions do, and management does) screaming how evil or wrong they are it is actually more difficult to become productive or successful. Kiling a Union may be fun but if the employees hate and distrust management good luck with that (long term). I have been in an environment where the employees hate their own union (for the most part) and it is worst yet.

Opening up the books, including union at the table (or as one small component of a board) is actually a pretty good idea (assuming both sides can act like an adult). If either side can not act adult then it may not be a great idea in the short term but long term it may bear fruit. Anything you can do towards inclusion and building trust is a good idea in my mind.

This from someone who watched a Union come in and ruin a company my Grandfather (manager) and father (worker bee at the time but rabid anti-union) worked for which in turn bankrupted the company and the town (probably 40 years ago) has never recovered. There are responsible unions and not so much. There is responsible management and not so much.

Then there is me. I am perfect.
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