Louie.

I was just telling Louis that the last time I got my flu shot I didn't feel well for a few days afterwards he assured me I wasn't sick. Could've fooled me though I felt sick. Sure not as sick as the full-fledged flu or even a minor flu but I still felt sick.

This is a clear and distinct difference. They are actually giving them chicken pox. The symptoms ("sickness") are due to a live replicating virus. If something goes wrong, if the child isn't healthy, the virus could theoretically win.

A vaccine is either viral particles or attenuated virus. Neither of these could ever replicate and win, no matter what the conditions.

Yeah I agree with you on that one.

In terms of the flu shot it's really just a matter of the clinical definition versus a laypersons definition. And that to me is semantics. Two people saying the exact same thing but disagreeing. No one in here is saying they may not feel sick. They are just saying they are not sick.

If you become ill due to a vaccination, you are sick.

It may be anticipated.
It may be more desirable than the alternative.
But it is still sick (no quotations needed).

People may not get the flu from a flu shot. But they might get sick.
Call it a side-effect, but don't tell a sick person that he's not sick.
face it, isn't it obvious that TW is sick.
I mean WAS sick...

this has been a great thread. no "rubby" references have helped to that end. But some are arguing the semantics of the meaning of words like "feeling sick" vs having a sickness diagnosis while others are trying to get past that level and deal with real definitions of sicknesses and what may or may not cause them.

I often have sneezing fits (10 or more at a time) and it is like having a cold, but it is isolated behavior that may be related to my dry heat at home or dust coming from the mill at work. I have these episodes frequently but have not actually had a cold in a long time, despite my cold symptoms. I sure blow my nose alot like when I have a cold, but I am not sick despite my symptoms.

Feeling sick is different than being sick as in having an illness, the two camps are not in agreement when it comes to language. But reducing it to language is dumbing it down.

Which came first; the chicken or the egg.?

The reason I've been fairly persistent with this isn't to be a jackass (this time, next time I may be). It is something I work with all the time.

I am and have been in QI for a long time. I often run interference/interpret between clinical folks and non-clinical staff and patients. You would be surprised how many disagreements are really not disagreements at all. Rather each side is so sure they are right they fail to truly hear what the other is saying. It can become a patient communication/satisfaction/compliance issue or worse. Being technically right isn't enough. Technically the shot (I know some will debate this) cannot make you sick because it's not a live or even complete virus. This doesn't change the fact one of the side effects is you may feel sick. You can't tell someone they don't feel sick, even if in your clinical opinion they are not sick. Doctors too often have a huge blind spot and difficulty understanding why folks think they are wrong when they are so right. It is a natural thing.

Much gets lost in translation in this forum and I am sure the Doc doesn't just tell folks "you are not sick" even though technically he believes that to be true. He's already said he considers it known side effects rather than being sick. I'd guess he explains it as such in a satisfactory way. I'm only saying you need to do just that. You can't get exasperated at the ignorance of the mere mortals.

In the event any doctor simply says the flu shot can't make you sick so you are not sick, then they are not reading the many nonverbal "eff you I AM sick" signs, or are getting annoyed by the ignorant patients that argue with them. An avoidable credibility gap will get created (and at this point at what cost being right?) and a lot of things can happen. Some folks will never be seen again by the doctor, some will continue to date the doc until someone prettier comes along, some will blindly follow the doc (like my parents) because the doc is always right.

The first two groups my very well not be identified by the doc as even existing. It's hard to identify them unless you are looking for them. You would be surprised how many doctors have lost a lot more disgruntled patients than they know. Every doc has a group of patients they have lost because they were not liked for various reasons. The third group is just as bad because you need to question your doctor and make sure you are speaking the same language in order to have your whole picture on the table. Most doctors want this although many of them are uncomfortable with it when it happens.

There is one language spoken between clinical folks and another to non-clinical folks. Sometimes clinical folks can be tone deaf to non-clinical folks. It is ironic because Docs are there to serve the non-clinical folks. They are a consultant being hired. They need to be able to speak plainly. It is important to manage perception and it is not dumbing things down. Anyone who ever communicates with the masses effectively understands this. If you only communicate with the peers in your field this may not be important.

We run satisfaction surveys all the time and the first response to negative satisfaction is inevitably "they are wrong" or "they don't understand". My favorite is when a doc asks me how to get the patient to answer the survey correctly rather than what can I do to improve things. Once they get past the patient is wrong then things tend to move.

It's an impossible issue to cover in here. I can't even capture my own thoughts to my satisfaction. It's near and dear to me but this is a difficult forum to even scratch the surface. And doc I know my own bias is involved as well.

So let’s leave it at this


O.K.
Just a little pin prick
There'll be no more aaaaaaaah!
But you may feel a little side effected

So, do the folks that don't believe in vaccination get their dogs rabies shots? Second would you refuse anti rabies shot if, God forbid, you were bitten by a rabid animal?

Just something to think about, because you have no chance of surviving a real rabies infection.

---

TW, you're not incorrect that there's a communication gap between the dr and the patient. However, the answer isn't to start using the patient's terminology. I suspect it's actions like that which led us to our current issues with a population unable to understand science (ie, the "science" "journalists" dumbing down and sensationalizing difficult and complex concepts leads to a public which incorrectly interprets.... well everything). The same thing will happen (or is happening) with medicine if we allow incorrect terminology to slip in just because it's easier. Somehow the populace has to be educated.

As for "sick" vs whatever. It's an immune response to something you injected. I would argue that side effects to a flu shot are closer to an allergic reaction (which is simply an uncontrolled immune response to something common in your environment) than anything else. No one says they're sick when they have allergies.

It's certainly not the same as chemo side effects, which while expected and understood to be the side effect of medicine, are caused by the damage the drug does to your body. This is truly "sick", it's because of cell death.

I just started getting the flu shot last year. the new flu shots don't get you sick. So far so good. Plus its free from the job.

Vic I think you need to reread my last post. I'd bet the doc is doing the correct thing in how he explains it.

There is a difference between starting to use the patients terminology and understanding it. That is HOW you educate.

Meh.. we are in the minutia now. As I said this medium breeds assumptions and miscommunication itself. It always amazes me how close some folks may actually be to agreeing without recognizing it.

Some folks believe the term sick has a certain precision, some don't. It's not an overly clinical term to most, but it is to a clinician. I don't really think it has anything to do with the failure of our education system or Potts inability do understand math.

probably the chicken.

Well, all I know is that I was fine that morning. I was told to go get a flu shot. Like a good little E-2, I complied. I got the shot and then had the flu that night. Had it for about 2 weeks.

And then... I just haven't had a flu shot since.

That could also be caused by an allergic reaction to something...pollen, pet dander, things like that.

very true, and it feels sick-like, but I am not truly sick. Probably all the dust and debris I am exposed to at home a work. My body is ridding these invaders from my nasal passages, sinuses, and lungs and that action mimics having a cold.

Free flu shots here today at work..... 🤔 🤔

^ good deal, load up! Your body will thank you, if not now, in the years to come. Get yourself a breast exam while you're at it! 👍

ok..... I'll be the guinness pig... if I don't get sick or die within a week we can conclude these are harmless... 👍

shots done... I'm not suppose to smoke any crack for 6 hours tho.... 😟

standard dose trivalent shot..... 🤔