Poll Question: Is Global Warming Real?
banderl
11 years ago

How far is your commute if you're spending more than that? I'm driving about 1.75hr per day just getting to and from work.... that's a pain in the azz commute in my mind.

victor809 wrote:




I don't commute when I huff gas.
frankj1
11 years ago

I don't commute when I huff gas.

banderl wrote:


good decision.
tailgater
11 years ago

I said I wasn't getting a more fuel efficient vehicle. My point is pretty clear, unless you already live close to work or drive a fuel efficient vehicle, the bulk of your fuel expenses are a "luxury" in that they allow you to live in some area other than where you work.

victor809 wrote:



What you said was "if gas were prohibitively expensive, (you'd) move closer to work"
You then said that you'd never trade the Beemer for a Prius regardless of fuel costs.

So you'd MOVE before you parted with your status symbol.
Not a bad thing. Just an odd sense of priorities.



As for the impact of fuel prices, I'm in the plastics industry so I'm affected directly. Manufacture and transit costs are literally more than double what they were a mere dozen years ago.

So fuel costs don't just affect "luxury" items. Maybe for you. Based on your age, profession, social life and living situation. But for many it's a huge issue.


victor809
11 years ago

What you said was "if gas were prohibitively expensive, (you'd) move closer to work"
You then said that you'd never trade the Beemer for a Prius regardless of fuel costs.

So you'd MOVE before you parted with your status symbol.
Not a bad thing. Just an odd sense of priorities.

tailgater wrote:


Well, those were two temporally different statements. Gas is not prohibitively expensive for me, so I have no need to either move or turn in my beemer (it's almost a decade old, it isn't a status symbol, I just like how it drives). If there is a time in the future at which gas becomes prohibitively expensive for me, then I'd change my current commuting habits, likely well before leaving the city. Of course, if gas has become so expensive that someone who can afford rent in SF cannot afford gas to drive out of SF... then you've got a serious gas price problem...



As for the impact of fuel prices, I'm in the plastics industry so I'm affected directly. Manufacture and transit costs are literally more than double what they were a mere dozen years ago.

So fuel costs don't just affect "luxury" items. Maybe for you. Based on your age, profession, social life and living situation. But for many it's a huge issue.



For the manufacturers it's a big issue, I'll agree. Your widget may cost 2x the amount to make. But remember, your widget is only a percentage of the final product cost... yes a lot of things are made from plastic... but there are additional costs going into the price of a final product (including "branding" costs, which are completely valueless, but add enormous markup to final goods). .

There are people who are affected by the cost of gas. But we as americans hear a disproportionate amount of noise around the cost of gas compared to the number of people actually impacted in any way or the amount of impact it actually has. Think about it... outside of the costs you deal with at work, has the price of gas really impacted you at all? Have you bought less gourmet coffee beans? Fewer cigars?
mikey1597
11 years ago

Well, those were two temporally different statements. Gas is not prohibitively expensive for me, so I have no need to either move or turn in my beemer (it's almost a decade old, it isn't a status symbol, I just like how it drives). If there is a time in the future at which gas becomes prohibitively expensive for me, then I'd change my current commuting habits, likely well before leaving the city. Of course, if gas has become so expensive that someone who can afford rent in SF cannot afford gas to drive out of SF... then you've got a serious gas price problem...



For the manufacturers it's a big issue, I'll agree. Your widget may cost 2x the amount to make. But remember, your widget is only a percentage of the final product cost... yes a lot of things are made from plastic... but there are additional costs going into the price of a final product (including "branding" costs, which are completely valueless, but add enormous markup to final goods). .

There are people who are affected by the cost of gas. But we as Americans hear a disproportionate amount of noise around the cost of gas compared to the number of people actually impacted in any way or the amount of impact it actually has. Think about it... outside of the costs you deal with at work, has the price of gas really impacted you at all? Have you bought less gourmet coffee beans? Fewer cigars?

victor809 wrote:




Fixed it for ya
tailgater
11 years ago

Well, those were two temporally different statements.

victor809 wrote:



Some would say "contradictory"




For the manufacturers it's a big issue, I'll agree. Your widget may cost 2x the amount to make. But remember, your widget is only a percentage of the final product cost... yes a lot of things are made from plastic... but there are additional costs going into the price of a final product (including "branding" costs, which are completely valueless, but add enormous markup to final goods). .

victor809 wrote:



Branding. Like "Mercedes"?

Dude, plastic isn't just the product. It's the packaging and the storefront that advertises it.
Oil/fuel/gas/diesel/energy is the tail that wags the dog. Supply and demand sets the price, so the individual pieces simply make due with less.
You don't see it until it ships over seas. Then you bemoan the greedy business owner. Well, not you. You might understand that they're simply driven by profits. But even you can't see that the margins are disappearing thanks to that insignificant thing known as fuel prices.

victor809
11 years ago

Some would say "contradictory"

tailgater wrote:


Potato Potahto....



Branding. Like "Mercedes"?

Dude, plastic isn't just the product. It's the packaging and the storefront that advertises it.
Oil/fuel/gas/diesel/energy is the tail that wags the dog. Supply and demand sets the price, so the individual pieces simply make due with less.
You don't see it until it ships over seas. Then you bemoan the greedy business owner. Well, not you. You might understand that they're simply driven by profits. But even you can't see that the margins are disappearing thanks to that insignificant thing known as fuel prices.



Margins disappear... that's kind of what they do in most businesses. Then you raise the prices when you can't handle the thin margins any longer, and the consumer pays a little bit more for the final product (after Mercedes or Louis Vuitton has already slapped a 300% markup on it....) I understand completely what you're talking about, my point is that even after all the various manufacturers have had to raise their prices to deal with the increased cost of doing business, your average american is likely not overly inconvenienced. A more salient way of looking at it is simply this, what percentage of your annual income are you spending on durable goods? TVs, computers, phones.... do you really buy that many a year that it's having an impact on your life if they become more expensive to manufacture? Compare that to how much you spend on latte's a year (or scotch, or some other high-markup consumable)...

I know when I look at my monthly expenses, at various times in my life the highest categories (after rent) are Starbucks, alcohol and restaurant expenses ... these are very high mark-up goods, and a slight increase in the COGS is not likely to impact the price by a high percentage, because direct COGS is not a large percentage of the price to begin with.
MACS
11 years ago
Victor... if you're renting an apartment, and driving almost 2 hours commuting, in a BMW... you may have spent too much time in science class and not enough time in ECONOMICS.

A home (traditionally) appreciates. Cars go the opposite direction. So... before you spend luxury money on a depreciating asset, you should already own a home.

Just sayin'.
tonygraz
11 years ago
And there will always be something to do in order to maintain that home.
wheelrite
11 years ago

Well at least you lead by example, You help make others green……

I want to procreate on you...

Brewha wrote:





oh my

wheel,,

MACS
11 years ago

And there will always be something to do in order to maintain that home.

tonygraz wrote:



Been in my house 15 years. I know eventually I will have to shell out some money for something... but in 15 years, I have replaced a water pressure regulator and some toilet parts.

In that time, I have earned about 100% of what I paid for my home in equity. If you've rented for 15 years... you've earned someone else that equity, so your point would be completely devoid of any common sense whatsoever.

At one point, before the housing bubble burst, had I sold my home I would have tripled my money. But I submit to you, once I own my home, I will happily pay $5,000 a year to maintain it rather than $18,000 in rent/mortgage.

Your mileage may vary...
jpotts
11 years ago

Potato Potahto....


Margins disappear... that's kind of what they do in most businesses. Then you raise the prices when you can't handle the thin margins any longer, and the consumer pays a little bit more for the final product (after Mercedes or Louis Vuitton has already slapped a 300% markup on it....) I understand completely what you're talking about, my point is that even after all the various manufacturers have had to raise their prices to deal with the increased cost of doing business, your average american is likely not overly inconvenienced. A more salient way of looking at it is simply this, what percentage of your annual income are you spending on durable goods? TVs, computers, phones.... do you really buy that many a year that it's having an impact on your life if they become more expensive to manufacture? Compare that to how much you spend on latte's a year (or scotch, or some other high-markup consumable)...

I know when I look at my monthly expenses, at various times in my life the highest categories (after rent) are Starbucks, alcohol and restaurant expenses ... these are very high mark-up goods, and a slight increase in the COGS is not likely to impact the price by a high percentage, because direct COGS is not a large percentage of the price to begin with.

victor809 wrote:



What a complete load of unmitigated Bull. Stick to big Pharma Victor. You're out of your depth here.

The reason why there is a THRIVING used car market out there has much to do with the price of a car. And the price of a car skyrockets when artificial costs are pumped into the price.

Costs like government regulations, to be specific. You know that the government has mandated that at one point, every new car will have a rear-view back-up monitor installed? Do you have even the slightest idea what adding that does to:

1) R&D Costs,
2) Warranty costs,
3) Vehicle development costs (because those things have to work nice-nice with the rest of the car),
4) After-market / service / maintenance costs (technicians have to diagnose and fix them),
4) Sourcing a supplier that will provide components that will meet federal requirements, and do so with low defects, and high volume,
5) Hours and hours of testing the component in various ways by multiple people.

You rack up MILLIONS of dollars of accumulated costs because of a slight change in one single government regulation. And it is artificial, and directly impacts margins. So costs of vehicles go up, up, and up.

Why do you think people lease these days as opposed to buy? It is, for the most part, because the price of vehicles has outstripped the consumer's ability to pay-to-own. So forced into this situation, car manufacturers lease the car on one side, then sell it used on the other to make up the difference.

So yes, the average American IS overly inconvenienced. Likewise, they are spending more for less. I could buy a car, run that thing for ten years. After five years, it's paid off, driving my cost over the remaining time (I usually keep my vehicles longer than 10 years) down with each year. Whereas if you lease each year, the cost for the lease goes up for the same basic vehicle because the cost of the vehicle artificially rises.

Likewise, my parents owned a retail store. I can tell you from direct experience, when prices rise, and wages do not rise proportionally, people spend less. Period. The made do with less. Any price increases - especially in retail markets - has a HUGE impact in sales. Hence the reason why some food manufacturers will reduce portion sizes in order to maintain the same price. Because the consumer first looks t the price of an item, not the volume /quantity for the price. Very few do that type of cost calculation on most purchases.

So, in short, you're completely full of it.

tailgater
11 years ago
Victor, all I'm saying is that fuel prices aren't a luxury expense for MOST people.
ZRX1200
11 years ago
Victor you owe jpotts an apology.
tonygraz
11 years ago
Hey Pottsie, I think that business slowed down at your parents' store because people couldn't stand their little nasty arrogant brat that hung around there.
victor809
11 years ago

Victor... if you're renting an apartment, and driving almost 2 hours commuting, in a BMW... you may have spent too much time in science class and not enough time in ECONOMICS.

A home (traditionally) appreciates. Cars go the opposite direction. So... before you spend luxury money on a depreciating asset, you should already own a home.

Just sayin'.

MACS wrote:



You'd be right MACS. If it weren't for the details. Like I said before, the BMW is almost 10 years old. I bought it with 50k miles on it. Depreciation is still occurring, of course, but it's not at the steep end of the curve.

Similarly, when looking at the homes I would be interested in buying (condos), when combining the non-recuperated expenses, things like condo fees (300-700$/mo), property taxes (800$+/mo) and interest on a $500k mortgage, these will be close to, or possibly more than the rent I pay. Yes, there is equity to be had by buying property, but these properties simply don't have the growth potential right now to be worth the effort. Especially considering the cash I've been holding for the purchase has gone up significantly more than property values over the past year.

I'm not disagreeing with you MACS, but when you look at the details, the money I'm losing isn't that significant. But don't think we haven't been considering buying for the past year and a half. The available units don't appear to be an appropriate value
ZRX1200
11 years ago
Tony.....jpotts is a made man here.

Stay in your lane, you are out of your league.
victor809
11 years ago

What a complete load of unmitigated Bull. Stick to big Pharma Victor. You're out of your depth here.

The reason why there is a THRIVING used car market out there has much to do with the price of a car. And the price of a car skyrockets when artificial costs are pumped into the price.

Costs like government regulations, to be specific. You know that the government has mandated that at one point, every new car will have a rear-view back-up monitor installed? Do you have even the slightest idea what adding that does to:

1) R&D Costs,
2) Warranty costs,
....blah blah blah....



jpotts wrote:



Funny... once again you've written a whole lot of tripe, without relating any of this to the discussion about fuel prices. Gonna explain how regulating a rearview back-up monitor is part of the price of gas?

Your apology is accepted.
victor809
11 years ago

Victor, all I'm saying is that fuel prices aren't a luxury expense for MOST people.

tailgater wrote:



I still disagree TG. I would maintain that when you look at the total impact of fuel prices (ie, COGS, commuting, home heating) the largest percentage of these costs is likely still an individual's daily commute. Their choice to not live close to wherever they are commuting is by definition a choice, and therefore not a necessity.

Maybe the average american is buying 200$ worth of petroleum products a month and I don't realize it... but it just doesn't seem like it.
DrafterX
11 years ago
I do... I was spending almost twice that before I bought my new ride... 😟
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