I'm just not OK with letting sick people die if they are too poor to afford life.

Let them have cake

Me neither. I just don't think forcing everyone else to bear the burden is right, or fair. Hypothetically speaking... having all of us in the insurance pool was supposed to lower prices. It didn't... because half the folks (if not more) were getting it paid for or subsidized by the rest of us.

When you rob from Peter to pay Paul, you'll always have Paul's support. What happens when Peter runs out of stuff to rob? Or when he just quits, and gets in line with Paul? Socialism, in all it's forms, is and always will be an abject failure.

Come on macs.... this is possibly one of the most frustratingly naive comments.

You are not ok with sick people dying from an inability to afford care but you don't want the people who can afford to pay for it to have to pay for it?

You can't have it both ways. Either nut up and accept that poor people should die if they can't afford care or go join the socialist party and bernie sanders...

I wasn't making a political statement, just a personal one.

There must be an answer that allows for us to help those living outside of our enviable prosperity.
To my way of thinking, that is a requirement if we want to be the greatest society in history.

ymmv, I am aware.

You read what I wrote, then you put it in YOUR words, not mine. You do it ALL the time. That is frustrating.

I said FORCED to pay. If the liberals in this world want to help everyone, they can do so willingly with their money, right? So we don't have to force anyone to pitch in... all these altruistic people will be happy to do it.

Oh, wait... then they'd have to use their own money.

I give to charity. I've donated to gofundme accounts. I've helped friends and family and expected nothing in return. I'm big on sharing... on MY terms. To people whom I feel deserve the help. I don't think we should ever be forced to do so.

MACS...you are mandated by law to buy auto insurance in CA, right? That was a GOP idea, which I hated at the time. But guess what, the rates stabilized, more insurance companies are competing for business, coverage minimums work and rate increases are controlled. An example of a govt. mandate that worked...

Macs. Then you live in a fantasy land if you think people will voluntarily give enough of their own income to help pay the poor people's medical needs. ... helping your friends and family doesn't do the devastatingly poor any good. None of us are ever going to be traveling in circles that would result in us paying their medical bills. What do you propose? Every poor person start a gofundme whenever they need a medical procedure? Are you suggesting charities? Because then you're gonna violate your Prager u course lesson on 3rd party payer.

At least I'm honest enough to say the biggest problem I see is cleaning the dead bodies off the street.

I can opt out of that, as I said. I can use the bus, uber, a cab, walk, ride a bike... We can't opt out of the ACA, or we get fined. Many people were paying the $600 fine because it was cheaper... and they still didn't have health care. So it helped some poor, but hurt a lot of others.

And I don't know about you, but even with USAA I think my auto insurance is too damn high. Especially here in CA, close to the border.

Victor... I realize it's fantasy land. Everyone is for it until it's their own money.

BTW - had a buddy in the Navy. We've been friends for 24 years. He is an alcoholic, lost his job, wife, kids, and dove into the bottle further. He was homeless.

I bought him a cell phone so he could text me. Let him stay with me, wash his clothes, eat my food, bought him clothes, back-packs, shoes, always had him for holidays... (couldn't/wouldn't let him stay permanently) and finally, when he was ready, got him in to a Christian based (free) rehab. He's been clean for a year and graduates the program Sunday.

I genuinely care about people. As I said, though... I don't believe you, who has readily admitted you do not, should be forced to provide for poor people. I can say, with complete conviction having spent time with a man who was homeless for a few years, 99% of the homeless population put themselves there through a series of poor choices over a number of years.

Alcoholics, dopers, criminals, or just people who are nuts. I feel bad for the nuts.

I know you were exaggerating with the 100% number since a huge number are due to mental illness not of their doing. But good on you.

The health insurance business was not working for most Americans before Obamacare, unless they were fortunate enough to work for large companies or government entities. People working for small businesses or who were buying individual personal plans had to pay exorbitant premiums for junk insurance. Many basic health benefits were not covered. Annual deductibles and caps were outrageous. Premiums were going up at alarming rates, in some cases more than 100% per year. Profits were going up for the for-profit carriers faster than premiums.

Insurance companies could cherry pick who to sell policies to, and deny coverage to others. They would deny payment for stuff the insured thought was in the policy. Those with pre-existing conditions couldn't get insurance at all. That was the state of our free market health insurance system. Who wants to go back to those conditions?

Not in my experience. Most of the nuts are people who've abused meth for far too long... that IS of their own doing. Very few just have mental issues. The overwhelming majority are drunks, dopers, and criminals whose families have had it with them.

While there are many of them there are also many where it's not their doing.

Macs I don't question you're a generous guy. I'm actually surprised you had an associate who was homeless (Not for any reason than it's statistically improbable). The guy was lucky to know you. But most homeless don't have someone with resources in their circle of friends... usually because of their bad choices or crazy.

If you want to ensure consistent access to any life or death level medical services you simply are going to have to have some large bureaucratic entity... and the resources to fund it. That means taxes or the convoluted Obamacare system. That's just reality. You can't ensure sufficient funds for all those who need it, or even make sure you're setting up an accurate system of delivery without something like that.

People seem to miss that issue with a lot of our modern problems. They want the problem (whether it be homeless people pissing on the street... or poor people needing medical care... ) to just not be a problem. But they don't think there needs to be money used to solve the problem... or blood. Blood solves the problem too.

Very few would be an incorrect statement I beleive. But I get your point.

I can say in SF a lot of the homeless seem crazy. But they also seem to have a very interesting sense self preservation. They do something nuts... but not if it gets them the attention of someone larger than them.

Some of this could very well be due to huge amounts of drug use... their brains seem busted.

Health Insurance policies under Obamacare seek to help the drug abuse/mental health problem vicious cycle. Whether it starts with mental health problems that lead to drug abuse or vice versa, our society has recognized that we should be looking at that as a treatable illness and not the criminal justice problem it has become. It costs much more as a criminal justice problem...

The objective is to provide early, and less expensive, treatment, whether for drug abuse or mental problems, and hopefully make that person a productive member of society. Treating him early might keep that person from spinning down the drain, increasing costs of dealing with him as his problems become more severe. Many families turn their back because he/they can't afford health insurance and trying to pay for his medical bills would drag the rest of them down.

^^I don't argue that a lot of alcohol and drug abusers have underlying mental health issues. The problem is, their drug use leads to robbery, burglary, theft, and a multitude of other crimes against people. They deserve time for that.

We have many programs for them in the jail. RSAT - residential substance abuse treatment is very ineffective. Maybe works for 15-20% because most of them go right back to it. I had a guy tell me he was high again less than an hour after release. Guess where he is? Yep... back in custody.

Nobody opts out of getting sick. Mental health and substance abuse is just a small slice of the population that has been helped by Obamacare...more than 20 million people have health insurance now compared to the number before...the percentage of Americans without health insurance, about 12%, is the lowest ever...the vast majority are low income WORKING Americans.