Electric vehicles - what does the future hold? · Page 30

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burning_sticks
Connoisseur

3 years ago

#581

From Forbes:

EVs That Can Save The Most In Ownership Costs Vs. Their ICE Counterparts

1. Porsche Taycan vs. Porsche Panamera
Taycan purchase price: $88,150; five-year ownership costs: $91,597. Panamera price: $93,850; ownership costs: $125,075. Net EV savings: $33,478.

2. Tesla Model 3 Standard Range Plus vs. BMW 330i
Model 3 purchase price: $46,190; five-year ownership costs: $48,720. 330i price: $42,445; ownership costs: $69,590. Net EV savings: $20,870.

3. Chevrolet Bolt 1LT vs. Chevrolet Malibu 1LT
Bolt EV purchase price: $26,595; five-year ownership costs: $36,020. Malibu price: $28,398; ownership costs: $55,778. Net EV savings: $19,758.

3. Tesla Model S Base vs. BMW 740i xDrive
Model S purchase price: $96,190; five-year ownership costs: $115,430. 740i price: $90,795; ownership costs: $131,663. Net EV savings: $16,223.

5. Ford F-150 Lightning Pro Supercrew 4WD vs. Ford F-150 XL 2.7L Ecoboost Supercrew 4WD
F-150 Lightning purchase price: $41,769; five-year ownership costs: $49,114. F-150 XL price: $43,750; ownership costs: $64,539. Net EV savings: $15,425.

Brewha wrote:

The base price of a 2023 Ford lightning is currently just over 60,000, only up 20,000 from last year. Kind of cuts into your saving.

Brewha
Herf-A-Holic

3 years ago

#582

Where does Forbes get their pricing exactly?
'23 Lightning in Schaumburg - $87,429
In Merrillville - $72,299
In Oak Lawn - $60,988
Cars.com - $61,769

Seeing a '22 Model 3 with 9k miles for sale at $46,995 with cargurus calling it a fair price, so hard to see brand new selling for $46,190

Model S is all over the map. Some close to stated. Some less. Some over $110k

Bolt pretty close but mostly seeing $28-30k

And I don't believe Porsche owners have ever been concerned about cost of ownership, or they wouldn't be Porsche owners

Sunoverbeach wrote:

I have no idea where Forbes get their data - and things often change...

But the point of the article is cost of owner ship for EV's - on average they are cheaper in the long run. They have been for me.

I think one problem with Ford is the ongoing Dealer date rape. They like to tac $5,000 to $20,000 onto the sticker as a "market adjustment".
We would be better off without car dealerships imo.

Today's price on a new base model Tesla Model 3 is $41,990 and also qualifies for a $7,500 tax credit (tesla.com).
So, $34,490 + TTL.

Edited by user 3 years ago | Reason: Not specified

Brewha
Herf-A-Holic

3 years ago

#583

From Forbes eh?

Did it occur to you to actually go to the manufacturers websites and try ordering one?

DrMaddVibe wrote:

It did.

I did.

Got it for the online price and had it for about a year now.

Love it!

Brewha
Herf-A-Holic

3 years ago

#584

The base price of a 2023 Ford lightning is currently just over 60,000, only up 20,000 from last year. Kind of cuts into your saving.

burning_sticks wrote:

Wow - you are right.
Forbes is wrong.

Of course it is Ford we are talking about...and they have been struggling, and raising prices.

DrMaddVibe
Herf-A-Holic

3 years ago

#585

It did.

I did.

Got it for the online price and had it for about a year now.

Love it!

Brewha wrote:

What is this jibberish?

Go to manufacturers websites and build out what Forbes lists as "prices". Forbes didn't even do any real fact checking on that article...AT ALL.

Nobody GAF about your fart car except you. Saw where you traded in a car you supposedly liked.

DrafterX wrote: Shoulda bought a G37... Mellow

Wow, I just sold mine.

That thing was great.

Brewha wrote:

It was so great that you got rid of that? Let that marinate for a minute. No sane individual does that with regards to major purchases.

DrMaddVibe
Herf-A-Holic

3 years ago

#586

Biden’s Tax Credits for Electric Cars ‘Running into a Problem’ as China Controls Supply Chain

President Joe Biden’s tax credits for American-made electric vehicles are “running into a problem,” a new report details, as China controls the supply chain for raw materials needed to manufacture batteries.

Last year, House and Senate Democrats approved Biden’s Inflation Reduction Act which gives thousands of dollars in tax credits to American consumers to buy electric vehicles made in the U.S., Mexico, and Canada.

Now, Axios reports that Biden’s electric vehicle tax credits “to spur domestic battery manufacturing is running into a problem: Some critical raw materials are only found abroad, and China controls much of the supply.”

Specifically, China dominates a number of raw materials needed to manufacture batteries for electric vehicles such as graphite, lithium, and cobalt. By 2025, for instance, China is set to control about a third of all of the world’s lithium.

Some automaker executives, like Stellantis CEO Carlos Tavares, are hoping the Chinese raw materials issue boosts a free trade consensus among Washington, DC, lawmakers as they warn against economic nationalist policies that prioritize domestic industries.

“There are a lot of traps,” Tavares told Axios. “The world is fragmenting, and global trade is going backwards.”

China’s dominance in the electric vehicles market has already come to a head in Michigan where Gov. Gretchen Whitmer (D) has celebrated a $3.5 billion battery plant in Marshall, Michigan, as part of a deal between Ford and China’s Contemporary Amperex Technology Co. (CATL).

https://t.co/xcJp2ABm5s

— Breitbart News (@BreitbartNews) February 15, 2023

CATL is China’s premier electric vehicle battery supplier and enjoys immense support from subsidies overseen by the Chinese Communist Party (CCP). Despite China’s direct involvement with the plant, Ford is hoping to score federal subsidies through Biden’s tax credits.

As Breitbart News reported in February, CATL CEO Zeng Yuqun has deep ties to the CCP. Yuqun is a member of the Chinese People’s Political Consultative Conference (CPPCC) National Committee — a high-ranking CCP advisory body that serves as a central component of the party’s “United Front” efforts.

China’s “United Front” efforts, as the federal government has detailed, are considered to be a front for CCP intelligence operations overseas.

Sen. Marco Rubio (R-FL) has since written to Biden’s top officials urging them to block federal subsidies to Ford over its deal with CATL.

“If Chinese companies like CATL are able to exploit both Chinese and United States incentives for battery and electric vehicle technology through clever corporate arrangements, then there is no use in investing federal funds toward industrial development in the first place,” Rubio wrote.

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2023/04/12/report-bidens-tax-credits-for-electric-cars-running-into-a-problem-as-china-controls-supply-chain/

So, not only is the Pedo In Thief beholden to the CCP, but now he's got corporations ass deep in bed with them too! If you really cannot see the "game" afoot then they've already won. America stands for nothing.

Edited by user 3 years ago | Reason: Not specified

DrMaddVibe
Herf-A-Holic

3 years ago

#587

But...these go to 11!, er...come with a rebate![whip]

Despite $7,500 Inflation Reduction Act Tax Credit, Americans Are Just Not That Into EVs

Here's a peculiar sentiment check that we're sure will have liberal voting soccer moms across the nation stunned: it looks as though the country simply isn't rushing out to buy electric vehicles.

At least that was the takeaway from a new Financial Times piece out this week which notes that the U.S. "still lags much of the developed world" in EV adoption.

No wonder those hurricanes coming up the Gulf Coast keep getting bigger! Quick, everybody to the Tesla dealership!

But seriously, the lack of demand is going to also be sure to stun the government, who has been offering tax breaks of up to $7,500 to try and incentivize people to go electric. Though the Inflation Reduction Act incentivizes EVs, imagine how surprised Democratic leaders will be to find out that they aren't the free market and can't plan a state run economy in its entirety.

Instead, FT reveals that "just two in every 10 Americans are “very likely” to buy an EV as their next car", even with the additional IRA subsidies. The number shifts to 1 in 10 Americans among Republicans.

Cost and charger availability are being cited as the two main reasons people aren't buying EVs. Behind them, price still remains a key factor.

And when it came to those who wanted to buy an EV, the IRA subsidy was only cited by 6 in 10 people even cited it as a reason, with only 3 in 10 calling it a "major reason" to buy an EV.

As FT concluded, "economics still trumps ideology".

But don't worry, the Biden administration won't take this as a lesson on why government control of the economy doesn't work - rather, we're certain they'll see it as a prompt to shell out more taxpayer purchasing power as "incentives" to fundamentally alter the course of the notoriously low-margin, capital intensive, auto business - and then blame Donald Trump when their plans don't work out.

https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/despite-7500-inflation-reduction-act-tax-credit-americans-are-just-not-evs

Just do it for the CCP.

Edited by user 3 years ago | Reason: Not specified

DrafterX
Herf-A-Holic

3 years ago

#588

I think everyone that wants one has one now.. they should prolly stop making them... 😟

Brewha
Herf-A-Holic

3 years ago

#589

What is this jibberish?

Go to manufacturers websites and build out what Forbes lists as "prices". Forbes didn't even do any real fact checking on that article...AT ALL.

Nobody GAF about your fart car except you. Saw where you traded in a car you supposedly liked.

DrafterX wrote: Shoulda bought a G37... Mellow

It was so great that you got rid of that? Let that marinate for a minute. No sane individual does that with regards to major purchases.

DrMaddVibe wrote:

Well D, may I call you D?
The G37 was a great car. Before that I had a G35 - also a great car. I traded off the G35 because I had driven it for 6-7 years and the new G37 were nicer (keyless entry, NAV, etc.). Besides who wants to drive the same car for their entire life?
So after many years with the G37, I started looking for an upgrade.

Saw the Tesla and blew it off. Who the f*ck wants some "electric car"? What if I need to drive it in the rain?

But the more I looked and read, I decided to take a test drive. Turns out they used that new "water proof electricity". Who wooda thunk it?

Anyway - The Model 3 is better than the G37 in every measure - except one - where Tesla doesn't compete and falls on their face. The sun roof. You can't get one on a Tesla. And I loved my sun roof.

But now my phone is my key, gas in near free, no oil changes - and THE BEST DAMN TECH on the roads.

Trouble is that now I feel sorry for peeps that don't have a Tesla....so it goes.

Edited by user 3 years ago | Reason: Not specified

Brewha
Herf-A-Holic

3 years ago

#590

I think everyone that wants one has one now.. they should prolly stop making them... 😟

DrafterX wrote:

That's what you said years ago about iPhones.... 😟

frankj1
Herf-A-Holic

3 years ago

#591

saw this from Bloomber News in my Boston Globe this morning...

"Exxon Mobil Corp. and Toyota Motor Corp. formed a partnership to test out low-carbon fuels in gasoline engines, potentially offering a way for drivers to reduce emissions without upgrading to an electric vehicle.

The fuel blends are made from cleaner feedstocks and could one day cut greenhouse gas emissions from internal combustion engines by as much as 75% compared with regular gasoline, said Andrew Madden, Exxon’s vice president for strategy and planning, citing initial trial results. The fuels proved compatible with Toyota vehicles, raising the prospect of a drop-in solution that could compete with battery-powered cars in future."

looks like in a couple years I'll buy an electric vehicle and after a few years there might even be zero carbon "gas".

deadeyedick
Herf-A-Holic

3 years ago

#592

Sounds like it will never compete with electric due to costs. But might be a possible transition fuel for those of us who continue to drive gas burners until green hydrogen is available.

DrMaddVibe
Herf-A-Holic

3 years ago

#593

Brewha wrote:

Like I previously stated and you ignored...no sane individual does that with regards to a major purchase.

Sunroofs are for people that drink White Claws and wear pastel colors while driving around in fart cars.

You can feel whatever you want. They do not prove facts wrong or right. They're yours alone. Nobody else GAF about them.

DrMaddVibe
Herf-A-Holic

3 years ago

#594

Joe Biden’s Electric Car Dream Is a Lie

Biden’s EV policy combines fascistic decrees, magic thinking, exorbitant costs, elusive benefits, and powerful acid. If the White House pumps enough LSD into the U.S. water supply, however, every American could enjoy Emperor Biden’s phantasmagorical vision.

US President Joe Biden.

Regarding electric vehicles, President Joe Biden cannot simply use his bully pulpit to preach EVs’ virtues. Gift-wrapping them in lavish taxpayer-funded subsidies is not enough for Biden, either.

So, this dictator rules by fiat. Rather than ask Congress to enact a pro-EV law, Emperor Biden issued a decree on Wednesday, via the Environmental Protection Agency.

By 2030, 54% of new passenger vehicles must be electric. Just two years later, that mandate would grow by more than one-fifth, until 67% of new cars and light trucks are electric in 2032.

This edict bludgeons personal freedom, is terminally grandiose, and defies economic reality. It surely was crafted by leprechauns whom Biden just befriended in Ireland.

Most offensive, Biden’s directive tells American adults which vehicles to purchase. I respect a woman’s right to choose which car to buy. Biden disrespects that right and will make it tougher for women (and men) to exercise it.

Barking orders at grown Americans gives Biden and other Democrats something close to carnal satisfaction. For the 47% of Americans who recently told pollsters that they are “Not too likely/Not at all likely” to buy EVs, Biden’s command feels like taking a cold shower—alone.

Biden’s mandate is absurdly overambitious.

Last year, just 5.8% of new cars were EVs. So, Biden demands a 931% increase in EV sales in the next seven years. That’s a 133% annual hike through 2030. And he ordains 1,155.2% unit-sales growth in the next nine years, a 128.3% yearly boost between today and 2032.

Good luck.

The Alliance for Automotive Innovation said: “This requires a massive, 100-year change to the U.S. industrial base and the way Americans drive.”

Imposing such a wholesale economic overhaul this swiftly would rival Mao Zedong’s Great Leap Forward. That government program killed a mere 20 million Chinese citizens.

This timetable is unachievable, especially when Biden padlocks mining projects in Alaska, Nevada, and Minnesota, and additional sources of copper, cobalt, lithium, and other minerals indispensable to EV production.

Biden also killed former President Donald Trump’s reforms of the National Environmental Policy Act. Trump accelerated up-or-down decisions on permits for power plants and other major projects. Thanks to Biden, these applications—even “green” ones—once again will wallow for years in purgatory.

All of this will make it harder to build traditional power stations and Biden’s blessed windmills and solar farms.

Even if America manufactured all of these EVs, what would happen after they got plugged into an already strained electrical grid? Imagine a national overburdened power-strip inferno.

“Independent estimates indicate that we need to expand electricity transmission systems by 60% by 2030, and may need to triple it by 2050 to meet the country’s increase in renewable generation and expanding electrification needs,” the U.S. Department of Energy stated last May 10.

“Between 2008 and 2021, according to C Three Group, the U.S. high-voltage transmission system grew by about 1,700 miles per year,” energy scholar Robert Bryce wrote Feb. 9 on Substack. At 1,700 miles of new high-voltage power-line construction per year, increasing today’s 240,000 miles of HV lines by 60%, or 144,000 miles, would take 84 years, or until 2107. That would miss Biden’s 2030 target by just 77 years. To build this new capacity by Biden’s 2030 deadline, productivity would have to rocket twelvefold.

What would this cost? Bryce calculates about $4 million per mile. So, these 144,000 miles would devour $576 billion or $82.3 billion annually between now and 2030.

That assumes that rural communities would welcome these new power lines.

They won’t.

Bryce cites several prospective power lines that are being studied to death or have been killed outright in Arkansas, Illinois, Iowa, Kansas, Missouri, and New Hampshire.

The TransWest Express initiative is supposed to convey wind power from Wyoming to Utah, Nevada, and California. Launched in 2005, TransWest might break ground this year and conclude construction in 2026. If so, 21 years will have passed between design and deployment.

Regarding this humongous transmission upgrade, Bryce predicts: “Such a massive expansion of the grid will not happen.”

Biden & Co. believe that solar and wind power will fuel all of this.

How cute.

Solar and wind power might be the most peaceful, beautiful, love-inducing, anti-racist energy sources ever devised. Unfortunately, they are intermittent: That pesky sun sets nightly, and the wind sometimes stops. That’s when power generation collapses to zero.

Coal, oil, and natural gas might be the world’s most disgusting, evil, bigoted fonts of energy. However, they produce electricity 24/7/365—even at midnight and when the breeze slows to a whisper.

Biden will wound Americans if he successfully forces 67% of new cars to rely on unreliable power from sources that routinely crater and a grid already plagued with brownouts and blackouts.

“Power outages from severe weather have doubled over the past two decades across the United States,” the Department of Energy reported last May, “and the frequency and length of power failures reached their highest levels since reliability tracking began in 2013—with U.S. customers on average experiencing more than eight hours of outages in 2020.”

Indeed, just after California’s Democratic governor, Gavin Newsom, issued his own EV diktat last year, state officials told people to leave their automobiles unplugged as megawatts waned amid the summer swelter. An Aug. 31 Washington Examiner headline encapsulated this farce: “California won’t let you charge the electric car it wants to force you to buy.”

These EV rules parallel the Biden regime’s War on Appliances. These neo-Marxists want to scrap natural-gas stoves, heaters, air conditioners, and other devices. They want everything to be electric, even as demand outstrips supply.

So, will Biden’s proclamation at least curb so-called global warming?

According to a White House statement: “Through 2055, EPA projects that the proposed standards would avoid nearly 10 billion tons of CO2 emissions—equivalent to more than twice the annual U.S. CO2 emissions in 2022.” Thus, over the next 32 years, Biden’s scheme would cut U.S. CO2 by 312.5 million tons annually, totaling 10 billion tons at mid-century.

Too bad China produced 10.081 billion tons of CO2 in 2020 alone, the International Energy Agency reports. Hence, China’s yearly CO2 output would obliterate whatever “gains” Biden imagines over a 32-year period.

In other words: Unless Beijing revolutionizes its behavior, Biden’s 10-billion-ton CO2 reduction will vanish within a 320-billion-ton cloud of Red Chinese carbon.

Biden’s EV policy combines fascistic decrees, magic thinking, exorbitant costs, elusive benefits, and powerful acid. If the White House pumps enough LSD into the U.S. water supply, however, every American could enjoy Emperor Biden’s phantasmagorical vision.

https://www.19fortyfive.com/2023/04/joe-bidens-electric-car-dream-is-a-lie/

Just like Covid, Ukraine, gas stoves, air conditioners, guns...this guy rules like a fascist dictator. He's delusional and not in control of his faculties. He is not able to lead this nation much less be the leader of the Free World that it needs. Our allies are now siding with the CCP and Russia. We're selling petroleum out of our reserves to China and buying it from a despot nation like Venezuela. Wake up and see this political party for what it is. LSD isn't going to make them more palatable.

tonygraz
Herf-A-Holic

3 years ago

#595

Only crazy people base their life choices and commentaries on politics.

HockeyDad
Herf-A-Holic

3 years ago

#596

Only crazy people base their life choices and commentaries on politics.

tonygraz wrote:

What if politics mandate life choices?

ZRX1200
Herf-A-Holic

3 years ago

#597

Politics now mandates you don’t get choices.

Sincerely,
The Deep State

tonygraz
Herf-A-Holic

3 years ago

#598

The new Chevy bolt can be had for under 16K with all discounts if you qualify for the big $7500 Fed. rebate. Price therefore is not a big negative. What troubles me is the range and availability of charging stations along with the question of durability. It seems inevitable that we will go electric and that within 10 years most cars will be electric powered.

HockeyDad
Herf-A-Holic

3 years ago

#599

Sometimes things seem inevitable when there are state and federal laws mandating it.

RayR
Herf-A-Holic

3 years ago

#600

The regime mandates that you must generally obey as a matter of duty their dicktates. And you should assume that the regime has a special kind of wisdom that is superior to ordinary wisdom.
Bwahaha. There is a crazy amount of idjuts that fall for that chit.

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