DrafterX
2 years ago
Shoulda stuck with torches and pitchforks... 😟
RayR
2 years ago
Capitalism it is not when the government directs industrial policy for the political end of bending consumers into purchasing what the regime says they need to own. The party line will be couched in terms like saving money or saving the planet from climate change, but advocates for those meddling government policies will never tell you who is really benefiting or the true costs to consumers and taxpayers who are getting screwed.


Study: Fueling EVs Really Costs $17 Per Gallon

By Nick Koutsobinas | Saturday, 28 October 2023 11:34 AM EDT

A new study out of the Texas Public Policy Foundation, which has received contributions from oil giants Exxon and Chevron, finds that the actual hidden costs of fueling an electric vehicle, which some allege equates to $1.21 per gallon of gas, is more like $17 per gallon — all things considered.

In their paper "Overcharged Expectations: Unmasking the True Costs of Electric Vehicles," the study's authors, Brent Bennett and Jason Isaac, ostensibly argue that while the direct cost of "fueling up" to an EV owner may appear low, the real costs and considerations add up to be significantly more.

"EV advocates claim that the cost of electricity for EV owners is equal to $1.21 per gallon of gasoline (Edison Electric Institute, 2021)," the authors contend, "but the cost of charging equipment and charging losses, averaged out over 10 years and 120,000 miles, is $1.38 per gallon equivalent on top of that. Adding the costs of the subsidies to the true cost of fueling an EV would equate to an EV owner paying $17.33 per gallon of gasoline."

The paper goes on to assert that the U.S. government uses regulatory standards, mainly Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) and Greenhouse Gas (GHG) emissions standards, to indirectly finance the growth of EVs. These standards force automakers either to comply, often by selling more EVs, or to buy credits from those who do, adding hidden costs to traditional gas and diesel vehicles.

"When we pay for a gallon of gasoline," they continue, "we are paying for the entire infrastructure to refine, transport, and market that gasoline. When an EV owner connects to the electric grid, how much are they paying for the extra generation, transmission, and distribution costs that they are imposing on the grid, and will those embedded costs rise over time?"

Answering this, the authors conclude, "The stark reality for proponents of EVs and for the dreamers in the federal government, who are using fuel economy regulations to force manufacturers to produce ever more EVs, is that the true cost of an EV is in no way close to a comparable ICEV [internal combustion engine vehicle].

"Our conservative estimate is that the average EV accrues $48,698 in subsidies and $4,569 in extra charging and electricity costs over a 10-year period, for a total cost of $53,267, or $16.12 per equivalent gallon of gasoline. Without increased and sustained government favors, EVs will remain more expensive than ICEVs for many years to come."

https://www.newsmax.com/newsfront/electric-vehicles-cost-combustion/2023/10/28/id/1140061/ 

MACS
2 years ago
^HA! Beat me to the punch by 8 minutes...

FULL DISCLOSURE: The energy companies paid for that study...

But if you discount the "science" because of that, you have to discount any "science" paid for by the pharmaceutical companies, right? RIGHT?!
RayR
2 years ago

^HA! Beat me to the punch by 8 minutes...

FULL DISCLOSURE: The energy companies paid for that study...

But if you discount the "science" because of that, you have to discount any "science" paid for by the pharmaceutical companies, right? RIGHT?!

MACS wrote:



Oh yes, of course the fact that Exxon and Chevron donated to the Texas Public Policy Foundation will be sold as a right-wing conspiracy, they'll say that they funded, if not fully and directed the study to tell lies about EV's, so don't believe a word the TPPF study says citizen.
The problem with that is, if you follow the money and the morass of gubmint regulations, mandates and subsidies, the numbers don't lie. They are not serving the consumer better and/or more cheaply.

Here's some more on the EV con game...

Stopping the Spread . . .

By eric -November 2, 2023

If it hadn’t been for Florida, it is very possible the entire country would still be living under a ā€œmaskā€ regime. By ending the ā€œmaskingā€ regime in Florida, ā€œmaskingā€ became harder and harder to maintain-in-force elsewhere – because Florida’s example proved that it was ok to take off the ā€œmask.ā€ More to the point, it made it clear the ongoing insistence upon ā€œmaskingā€ in other states (and by the federal government) was silly – and tyrannical.

This method could perhaps be used to stop the spread – of EVs.

Like ā€œmasks,ā€ electric vehicles are not something put on the table by the door (so to speak) that anyone who wants one can decide to pick up if they want to. They are being shoved at all of us, just the same as ā€œmasksā€ were when we tried to enter a store without one.

Only it’s much more subtle when it comes to EVs.

People aren’t – yet – forced to buy one. But alternatives to them are being forced out-of-production (effectively) by federal regulations designed to be impossible to comply with. The pending (it goes into full efferct in 2026) federal requiement that each car-maker’s entire roster of models average close to 50 miles-per-gallon, for example. The only way a car-maker can achieve such a ā€œfleet averageā€ – this is the terminology – is by building more EVs and fewer vehicles that aren’t. Each EV bumps up the ā€œfleet averageā€ – because each EV gets to claim it averages an ā€œMPGeā€ that is much higher than the miles-per-gallon achievable by any non-EV.

More...

https://www.ericpetersautos.com/2023/11/02/stopping-the-spread-2/ 





DrMaddVibe
2 years ago

^HA! Beat me to the punch by 8 minutes...

FULL DISCLOSURE: The energy companies paid for that study...

But if you discount the "science" because of that, you have to discount any "science" paid for by the pharmaceutical companies, right? RIGHT?!

MACS wrote:




Posted this waaaay up there.


Ya had to read it, but Trendy McFartCar had gobs to slob about it. Poor schlob still thinks I harbor ill will towards EV's. Schlub doesn't have to go to a gas station...yet doesn't think it effects him!


BAWHAHAHAAAAAA!



Suckers!

Interwebs +1
Brewha
2 years ago
So Larry, Curly and Mo think it costs $17 per gallon to fuel an EV…..

Why am I not surprised?
jamesmb
2 years ago
Some things that make me ponder in the statements above:

ā€œEVs are zero emissions when powered by electricity from nuke/wind/hydro.ā€
Orly? No emissions to build a windmill?

ā€œMining lithium makes it a no go.ā€
I can get on board with that. Now check out sodium sulfur batteries. Those don’t need nasty ingredients.

ā€œEnergy is keyā€¦ā€ Yes, and particularly energy density. How to charge up an apartment complex full of EVs every night. People who want mandates usually want those people to be forced to take mass transit.

ā€œWhen electric motors can move giant ships, airplanes, trainsā€¦ā€
Ships often, and trains are always powered by electric motors. The electricity is from on board diesel powered generators, because they can run the generator at peak efficiency and because electric motors are incredibly dependable.
Thermal efficiency is important. An engine in a car runs at lower efficiency than a coal plant. Low enough that you still save energy shipping it to a home and putting it in an EV.

I have no idea what the best balance is, but mandates are usually troublesome. Let it play out based on value. Keep bureaucrats out of it.
Brewha
2 years ago
EV Mandates

For all the talk, only a few states are mandating EVs - that is restricting in-state sales of non-EV's. Not that you can't own or operate a non EV there. If you want a new one you have to get in out of state and bring it it.

California - Beginning in 2035
New Jersey - 2035
Rhode Island - 2030
Washington - 2030

And as none of this has happened yet, we will look to the future to see what really get voted in.

The Market


The real story is what the manufacturers are planning.

Planning to go 100% EV and when:

2025 - Jaguar (dreaming about a 2025 Jag with a 12 cylinder? How about a 1,020 hp electric?)

2027 - Alfa Romeo

2028
-
Chrysler
Lotus

2030 -
Aston Martin (Bond, James bond)
Bentley
Buick
Cadillac (no Bud Light or Caddies for you!)
Genesis
Lexus
Maserati
Mercedes Benz ("The Best or Nothing")
Mini
Rolls Royce (I know you don't care)
Volvo (Ok, no one cares)

2033
- Audi

2035
-
Chevrolet (what has happened to 'Merca???)
GMC

2040
-
Acura
Honda
VW ("nearly 100%")

Just about any other manufacturer you can name has published a percentage of EV's by a given date - except Dodge. Prolly cause they are Dodge....



So - let the Market rule.
https://www.gearpatrol.com/cars/g38986745/car-brands-going-electric/ 
DrMaddVibe
2 years ago

EV Mandates

For all the talk, only a few states are mandating EVs - that is restricting in-state sales of non-EV's. Not that you can't own or operate a non EV there. If you want a new one you have to get in out of state and bring it it.

California - Beginning in 2035
New Jersey - 2035
Rhode Island - 2030
Washington - 2030

And as none of this has happened yet, we will look to the future to see what really get voted in.

The Market


The real story is what the manufacturers are planning.

Planning to go 100% EV and when:

2025 - Jaguar (dreaming about a 2025 Jag with a 12 cylinder? How about a 1,020 hp electric?)

2027 - Alfa Romeo

2028
-
Chrysler
Lotus

2030 -
Aston Martin (Bond, James bond)
Bentley
Buick
Cadillac (no Bud Light or Caddies for you!)
Genesis
Lexus
Maserati
Mercedes Benz ("The Best or Nothing")
Mini
Rolls Royce (I know you don't care)
Volvo (Ok, no one cares)

2033
- Audi

2035
-
Chevrolet (what has happened to 'Merca???)
GMC

2040
-
Acura
Honda
VW ("nearly 100%")

Just about any other manufacturer you can name has published a percentage of EV's by a given date - except Dodge. Prolly cause they are Dodge....



So - let the Market rule.
https://www.gearpatrol.com/cars/g38986745/car-brands-going-electric/ 

Brewha wrote:



It stands without reason you'd pick a link from a trendy magazine that writes more about chairs, wristwatches and the newest gadgets you MUST BUY. Now you know EXACTLY why I nickname you Trendy McFartCar. You own it even.

Disregard the industry experts that make automobiles, discount the engineers that develop the tech...the links are ALL in this thread. No, all you need to know is what Kim Kardashian is going to buy and run with it. Because.
MACS
2 years ago
Even the department of energy admits that they have no idea how they're going to supply the power if they manage to convert all cars to EV when they say they will.

The largest charging station in the country is in CA. All powered by a diesel generator. Not kidding.
Brewha
2 years ago

It stands without reason you'd pick a link from a trendy magazine that writes more about chairs, wristwatches and the newest gadgets you MUST BUY. Now you know EXACTLY why I nickname you Trendy McFartCar. You own it even.

Disregard the industry experts that make automobiles, discount the engineers that develop the tech...the links are ALL in this thread. No, all you need to know is what Kim Kardashian is going to buy and run with it. Because.

DrMaddVibe wrote:



Right - so if you can't win the argument, attack the one you are arguing with. [gonzo]

You just don't like that the car makers disagree with you right down the line.
and that you're wrong, again.
DrMaddVibe
2 years ago

Right - so if you can't win the argument, attack the one you are arguing with. [gonzo]

You just don't like that the car makers disagree with you right down the line.
and that you're wrong, again.

Brewha wrote:




If that's your take, you can't understand written word. That's all on you.

I've been quite clear on where I stand with EV's. It's all here on this thread too.

http://www.cigarbid.com/Forum/c/posts/m/4699413/Electric-vehicles-what-does-the-future-hold#post4699413

You bring your emotional pity self to this thread and dump your feelings. Great, glad you got that off your chest. Doesn't make it correct or valid.

I'm not arguing anything. EV's with our current infrastructure cannot support dumping ICE vehicles and going to 100% EV's. Homes and apartments aren't compatible. We're just seeing headway being made but it's cost prohibitive and gas stations are unwilling to depart from what they have now to support total EV. So, you can have your little cry fit and I really don't GAF what pouting you carry on with. You're not bringing any factual proof to the table. AT ALL. You're personalizing it, and that's you. That's not reality to 98.2% of us living in the real world. The truth is in this thread about manufacturers hitting the brake pedal on EV's. They're losing money on the daydream. American's don't want them. They're not viable.

So, start saving up for that battery replacement.
DrMaddVibe
2 years ago
I understand why Ford wasn't in that trendy buy-buy flashy mag.

Ford is losing dealers' trust after a rocky year for the EV transition



It's been a tough year for Ford dealers, and it's becoming clear some are losing patience.

Ford came in dead last in a recent survey on dealers' level of trust in their franchises, with 46% of Ford dealers surveyed by Kerrigan Advisors saying they had "no trust" in their franchise. That lack of trust aligns with the expectation of a decline in future profitability at Ford stores reflected in another portion of the 2023 Kerrigan Dealer Survey.

This breakdown in trust and pessimism about the future shouldn't come as too much of a surprise after the year Ford dealers have had.

Store owners started 2023 balancing with new investment requirements for selling electric cars against steep price cuts that hit the segment after Tesla's Elon Musk started reducing his prices. Over the summer, some Ford dealers told Insider they were starting to turn away electric Mustang Mach-E allocations, even after investing so heavily to qualify to sell those cars.

More recently, another Ford dealer told Insider he was struggling to fill orders for the electric F-150 Lightning as customers change their plans in a more unforgiving economic environment.

"By the time it was their turn to order interest rates had moved quite substantially. The price on the vehicle had moved quite substantially and not as many people ultimately ordered the Lightning," said Cameron Johnson, CEO of Magic City Auto Group, a Virginia dealership group selling mostly domestic brands.

Add on top of that the fact that dealers across the country have been ringing the alarm bell on a shift in electric car demand, and it starts to become clear why dealers for one of the leaders of the EV transition are starting to get antsy.

Ford, for its part, says it's listening to dealers and "making adjustments" based on their feedback.

"Working with our dealers, we have made recent beneficial changes to address dealer feedback and improve franchise value," a Ford spokesperson told Insider in a statement.

Ford is also among several companies that have pulled back or revised their electric car plans in recent months in response to the changing customer response to the segment.

Among the least trusted brands, Nissan takes second place while Ford's luxury brand Lincoln takes third.

Fewer EVs, more trust

Companies with less ambitious electric car plans appear to fare better among their dealers in the survey.

Topping the list of most-trusted franchises is Toyota, which has long supported a more measured electric vehicle transition and relied heavily on a hybrid lineup to meet more stringent emissions standards.

This puts Toyota ahead of the competition as the pool of green car shoppers shifts to a more price-conscious and practical buyer who is more likely to shell out extra cash for a hybrid that fits their lifestyle than an EV that comes with more compromises.

Toyota's luxury brand, Lexus, comes in second, while Subaru lands in third place.

Martin French, managing director at automotive consultancy Berylls, told Insider recently that hybrids are likely to be the bridge the auto industry needs to reach full electrification.

"I still believe full EVs are our future, but maybe just not as quickly as everyone is pushing them," French said.

https://www.businessinsider.com/ford-losing-dealer-trust-after-rocky-year-for-ev-transition-2023-11 


Again, from the NOT ME DEPARTMENT
HockeyDad
2 years ago
We’re gonna need more mandates.
DrMaddVibe
2 years ago
From the NOT ME DEPARTMENT as well!

Is The EV Revolution Still Happening?



During the latest profit season, executives from the auto industry probably surprised many by announcing revisions to their EV plans.

GM gave up its production targets. Tesla's Elon Musk warned about waning EV demand. Honda and GM canceled their joint venture that would have developed more affordable EVs.

Cars are piling up in dealers' lots. Thousands of chargers are not working, and there are not enough technicians to fix them. The EV dream might be over before it really began.

"As we get further into the transformation to EV, it's a bit bumpy," GM's chief executive, Mary Barra, said at the presentation of the auto major's third-quarter results.

Mercedes-Benz CFO Harald Wilhelm was blunter:

"This is a pretty brutal space," he said on the Q3 earnings call.

"I can hardly imagine the current status quo is fully sustainable for everybody."

The status quo Wilhelm referenced features rising EV sales, which might make some wonder why the executive is unhappy about it. BloomergNEF recently reported, for instance, that global EV sales are this year set to hit a record high, topping 14 million. China will account for most of these, but Europe, where Mercedes-Benz is based, has been steadily boosting its EV fleet, too, with sales this year set to log a 25% increase, per BloombergNEF.

Sales are on the rise in the United States, too, with new EV ownerships having already passed the 1-million mark for the first time in 2023 and are on track, per BloombergNEF, to book a 40% increase from 2022.

This all sounds like good news, but even BloombergNEF admits there are some issues. Other outlets are even more vocal about these issues.

MarketWatch reported in late October that the U.S. has a broken EV charger problem, for instance. Citing data from Automotive News, which the publication took from the DoE, MarketWatch reported that 4,000 charging stations with thousands of chargers were down in early October.

Not only were thousands of chargers unavailable to drivers, but there weren't enough technicians qualified to fix them, the report noted. This is happening as the Biden administration drafts plans to install another half a million chargers across the country by 2030. That, per Automotive News, would require the training of at least 142,000 certified electricians by that year.

In Europe, meanwhile, EV subsidies are being reduced in the biggest market for the vehicles: Germany. From January next year, prospective EV buyers will receive 1,500 euro less in state support for cars that cost up to 40,000 euro. That's equal to about $1,600. Per BloombergNEF, this might affect sales negatively. Per common sense, the reduction will undoubtedly affect EV sales negatively.

There is also the issue of insurance for EVs. In the U.S., as a total, EV insurance rates are modestly higher than insurance rates for ICE cars, but it varies considerably from state to state. In the UK, EV insurance premiums have soared by two-thirds over the past year, and some insurers are refusing to provide cover for electric cars altogether.

The problem is potentially serious and might have an even greater effect on EV purchases than charger problems do. The reason insurers are not fans of EVs is the higher costs they have to incur on EV claims compared with ICE car-related claims.

First, there is the battery, which might get damaged seriously in even a minor collision. Because there is no way to check whether the battery has been damaged, insurers have had to write off EVs after minor collisions. Electronics in EVs are also much more expensive to fix than electronics in ICE cars. In short, EV coverage has become too expensive for some insurers.

With demand for EVs slower than expected by forecasters, a thin silver lining has appeared: raw material costs for some of the materials that go into an EV have declined. Unfortunately, the rest of the problems that the industry faces still need a solution.

https://www.zerohedge.com/technology/ev-revolution-still-happening 


Also not from an Inflight or Sharper Image catalog![whip]
Stogie1020
2 years ago
^
I had not thought about the effect of EV components on insurance rates...
DrMaddVibe
2 years ago

^
I had not thought about the effect of EV components on insurance rates...

Stogie1020 wrote:



20 cents to a dollar!!!!!🐓
Brewha
2 years ago

^
I had not thought about the effect of EV components on insurance rates...

Stogie1020 wrote:



That’s a good point.

For the last year I been averaging $55 a month, so about $660 per year for my 2022 Model 3.
But because I’ve been driving like a mad man this month (per the Tesla Safety Score) they might charge me $88 for next month. That’s $1,056 a year if I don’t ā€œbehave myselfā€.

Robbery!!
Brewha
2 years ago

We’re gonna need more mandates.

HockeyDad wrote:


Not if the car makers beat them to it…..
Brewha
2 years ago

20 cents to a dollar!!!!!🐓

DrMaddVibe wrote:



Still struggling with arithmetic I see…..
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