now for rgirl...though i'm starting to feel like i should know better

the only disclaimer i will offer at the beginning is that i despise church speak. religious cliches burn my ass so bad i can't stand it...but for more readily comprehended communication, i will use some church speak...probably in quotation marks....all other disclaimers i should list here will just have to wait until i'm asked...if i'm asked

got "saved" at 17 before my senior year of high school. Hook line and sinker...complete change in and out. Very strong commitment to my church, to Bible study, hanging out with only Christian friends and most everything else i was supposed to do as a conservative Christian. but even at the start, some of what i was taught made a good christian seemed like crap...or at least something i could never seem myself adopting

i learned to hate sin and have a damn good eye for it in others...but it wasn't judgment...it was fruit inspection

went to baptist college and fell in love with formal theological education. Got a speech communication degree but spent most of my electives in the Bible building taking Scripture and Philosophy

Taught high school math for 2 years, escaped suicide (not really but was damn miserable dealing with those **** kids) and got to George W Truett Theological Seminary at Baylor in Waco, TX in 99.

Both my undergrad and seminary education was considered moderate as far as the Baptist spectrum goes. we read primary texts (we read Augustine's Confessions instead of reading someone explain it). The curriculum was great...covering OT and NT and theology from an historical perspective so we can see the trajectory of Christian thought over 2000 years. And I knew I was born to be a theology professor.

I was an insatiable sponge. Not only was I good, I humbly rank myself in the top 10 students that were there at the time. And best of all...and most disturbing...was that we were reading guys that said some stuff that would get them crucified in my home church...but it made boatloads more sense than anything i encountered

though Truett seminary had the balls to let us read the "dangerous" stuff, they had clear conservative evangelical foundations...so one couldn't just fall in love with the more liberal (not a political term like is thrown around here) thinkers without catching hell

got a divorce two years into seminary and my dad died so i took a break. had every intention of going back

but...the changes in my convictions over those two years showed me that I was ideologically homeless when it came to traditional christian circles. I no longer believed the orthodox things for the sake of being orthodox. I began to see that deep within myself...at the core of my being, i could not be anywhere near a conservative christian. To continue to try would to betray myself and foster a misery inside me that I was no longer willing to foster.

Before anyone says that there are other denominations/etc. than baptist...yes, I know. And i looked into them. And had I gone back to finish seminary, I would not have gone back to a Baptist school for my PhD. Christianity as an historical movement is generally conservative in the grand scheme of things. If you need evidence of this, you probably haven't been paying attention.

So after all the guest preaching, sunday school teaching, church staff interning and witnessing i've done...i'm retired...perhaps permanently...perhaps temporarily.

i refuse to give a person or group of people the authority to prescribe moral and behavioral standards just so i can be a member...I fully understand and respect a church's right to do so...but i ain't found NOBODY I'll give that authority to. Therefore, I don't participate in church

As for the argument that they are God's standards....in short, I believe it is impossible to tell and it is said more often than not to redirect responsibility for judgment that humans pass. Sociologically, we have to define membership somehow whether it's church, nation or the Rotary Club...but those standards are set up by humans. Period. They can do so in prayer and consult this that and the other all they want to. They can say they are God's standards...but I find it to be bull**** and I choose not to subject myself to their rule.

I understand the risks and the costs of my decisions. I have no church family to call if i'm in trouble...etc.

I also fully understand what i'm risking with God. If this is evidence of lack of salvation...whether I never was or I have lost it...I have come to the conscious decision that if what has been passed down through the ages is the only way to be a legitimate "saved" child of god...

...Then I'm not one.

damn...and that was the condensed version

I guess i should add that i still VERY much believe in God...and have pretty high expectations of God

which result in a strained relationship...but even in my view of God, God can take it

I also believe that Jesus was really human, was crucified, and is the foundation for the faith of Christianity.

What salvation means, what we have to do to receive the gift, etc...i no longer am confident to say.

And I will not offer the sunday school cliches to those issues.

Wow. Just wow. I was actually the guy that the chaplain came to talk to on our last deployment. You see, it was his first deployment and he has a wife and 7 children that he'd never been away from. Before we left on deployment, I told him... "Chaps, the kids are going to come to you, looking for a bit of comfort... they're going to come early and often from the day after we leave until the day before we return to port. YOU are going to need someone to talk to. Since this is my 6th deployment, please feel free to come talk to me."

Chaps and I had deep theological discussions... every time he would come talk to me, and he came to talk to me quite a bit.

Man, I would love to sit down with you billy and toss back a few beers while we smoked a few cigars and discuss this face to face. I just find your train of thought fascinating.

I, too, was raised southern baptist. I, too, no longer go to church... however, I am what I am and I feel that God accepts me, no matter how far short I fall of his goals for me.

I like it Billy. And MACS's follow up. My wife and I had a big discussion on religion recently. I may just bring up the BillyJackason thread and use it as discussion points.

Thanks, BJ. (you too MACS).

That he does Macs! That he does!!

I don't have no one on one's with any Preachers... when I got Issue's I talk straight up with the Man!

when someone goes mixin 3rd party's in there, then all the troubles start!

Hog

Opppsss forgot to add this to the last post DOH!

"I am what I am and I feel that God accepts me, no matter how far short I fall of his goals for me."

Hog

Interesting thread. I am in a similar situation, billy. Nor can i stand the christian-ese any more than you. My relationship with God started when i was 21, in the middle of heavy drug use and criminal activity. I was kicked out of school after school and finally got locked up when i was 16 years of age, serving 3 yrs and 9 months of a 4 and a half year sentence for violent crimes and drug charges. I had a radical experience with God and my life changed. The problem was, i didn't know what God wanted or clearly who He was, i just thought that the church down the street would have all the answers. So i went and was indocrinated with crapola. I went on to Bible college and then served in a ministry faithfully for 3 1/2 years preaching, teaching, leading worship (guitar/vocals) etc.

After a while it got a bit overwhelming and i went thru some trials and tribulations and had to rethink it all. God spoke clearly to me about some doctrinal issues and i began my journey to learn the truth. It took years for God to undo what man had taught and i'm still in a learning posture (being only 30yrs old), but i no longer attend any church regularly or serve in church.

I read the Bible still, among MANY MANY OTHER SOURCES from the early church period (and find those books fascinating). I love reading letters from the Church fathers like Clement, Polycarp, Ignatius, Mathetes, etc. I figure that God gave us an neo-cortex for intellectual thought and our ability to reason must be there for a REASON! My conviction is God DESIRES to be understood and DESIGNED us to understand. So i do my own study now. I turn on a Christian station and get almost angry at what's being taught because a lot of it is garbage and will not lead a new believer into a deeper relationship with God. That's gotta be done on our own.

Well, this isn't my thread, so i'm out. I just wanted to let you know that there are others in similar shoes out there and i love the topic. I wouldn't try to convince you of a thing, other than the fact that God designed you to know Him and knowing the REAL TRUTH will be a LIBERATING experience, becoming ordained with any established order may not be.

Thanks for the opportunity to share. I'm glad y'all started this thread, i'll be watching!

Billyjackson, for all that we got off on the wrong foot so long ago, I have a deep and abiding respect for you. It takes a lot of guts and honesty do look at yourself and say, "This just isn't working for me." God knows your heart, no matter what happens. That is all that counts, in the end. Live your life well. Be true to what you believe. You may be an **** sometimes, but you have won yourself a true friend in me.

Enough of this mushy crap. Thank you for answering my question.

Heather

Hey, it just occurred to me that some of my favorite fellows have shown up on this post! Nice of you all to join us. Gerilynn, you are a woman of deep faith and boundless generosity. You serve the Lord well!

Hoss, it is nice to meet you. It seems we all come from a similar place. I was saved, baptized in the Fire, speaking in tongues in high school. Cancer knocked me way back on my rear end and knocked the sense out of me. I spent my 20's up to my eyes in filth and depravation because I thought that somehow I had been betrayed by God. I have found my way back, and it all makes much more sense to me now. It is funny, because when I walked away from church I was quite confident that I had walked away from God. He kept following me around, whispering in my ear. I have had too many personal miracles to think it was anything other. I have done and seen things that I should not have lived through. There is a reason that I am here, and I do not believe in coincidence.

Heather

heather, you go girl! 🙂

what church do you now attend, if'n you don't mind my askin? do you drag ruggy with ya? (seems to be a great guy to me...well, maybe i'm biased by his willingness to trade with a newbie like me!)

I belong to a Evangelical Lutheran Church, but I don't often attend. I have never been one to go to church unless I feel it, you know? I love the people, and I get fed spiritually when I go.

Ruggy doesn't go with me unless there is an occasion to do so. He is finding his place with God in his own way. I am OK with that. You can't make a person love you, believe in God, or quit using chemicals. Those are all things they have to come to on their own.

I spent a lot of time studying all things esoteric. My faith is very much rooted in the Old Testament. I don't believe that Jesus was a peace maker. I think He came to save our souls and stir the pot. I believe that God is way smarter than any of us give Him credit for. Our perceptions of what He is about and what He can do are so limited. So limited. I believe that we have been given the tools to do great things, and that if we just sit on our backsides and do nothing we will get nothing.

I believe that I need to put this little girl to bed. We'll chat more later.

Heather

Billy, love the honesty! Sooooo difficult to find anyone, much less a person of the cloth, that is willing to bare themselves. Mucho respect for you. May your journey be fruitful

Mark

thanks for the good words, puff

but make no mistake

i'm no man of the cloth

Hmmm. Interesting thread. Billyjackson - ever check out Roman Catholicism? I'm not a huge fan of Evangelical Christianity myself (although it is obviously not without value, as evidenced by some who have already posted on this thread). I think I understand your disillusionment (perhaps presumptuous of me - but I think I've been there too).

Like ruggysgirl I'm ELCA Lutheran, but was raised conservative evangelical (Free Methodist) and am probably on the road to Rome. We'll see what comes of it.

"but make no mistake

i'm no man of the cloth"

One of my best friends is a laicized Episcopal priest.

you are welcome Billy. My apologies for any unintended inferance that you were still "of the cloth" ...in many ways (verbally) you remind me of a wonderful preacher/minister/etc that I know. He called things as he saw it, lived it like he meant it and didn't give a crap about anybody's opinions. Hope to see him again someday soon...always had great conversation and martinis!

Mark

catholicism...no

one of my main problems with the structure in which i entered the faith regards the authority and standards issues...if i ain't into an autonomous baptist church telling me i have to think certain things are sins, etc., i sure ain't going for a power structure where there is a pope. I partly admire the fact that there is an official structure and they don't apologize for that...but it is still something that i'm not going to submit to

puff...no problem and no offense at the "man of the cloth" thing...just wanted to be clear that i no longer consider myself a minister...didn't want anyone to get the idea that i thought myself or people like me were "official" minister material

and i very much care what others think of me. that's why i get easily pissed when someone goes after my convictions regarding christianity...you didn't do that...but just saying in that regard...i'm not like your friend

Dang, I typed a long response and lost it.

Great Thread.

Ok personally I was raised Jewish but am not an active participant in any denomination, but consider myself a man of faith. My wife was raised Catholic, she found it lacking and now is active in the local Baptist Church (along with my son).

My personal feeling is that god tries to get his message out in many ways. This is why different religions and denominations have developed over the years. The same basic message delivered in different ways because people absorb the message in different ways. Unfortunately, IN MY OPINION (hear that, my opinion) man and religious politics have perverted the message. And to me the MAIN message isn't how we treat and relate to god but how we treat and relate to each other.

Billy, I see that you feel that you don't have a church family to turn to should you feel the need. Over the years I have seen many churches and synagogues welcome and help people in need (spiritual and otherwise) that weren't a part of their community. They are there for you, you will just need to ask, they won't turn you away. I am pretty sure that you know that already. It wouldn't be hypocritical for you to turn to a church, should you feel the need.

My 2 cents are done. Have a great night.

Cool Billy. Always a bit difficult to "communicate" for me when using the "square headed girlfriend", i.e. pc. Your beliefs and practices are yours and will never be judged by me and shouldn't be by anyone else. As long as a person is true to themselves...living is easier IMHO. Peace .

mark